Riot, you need to consider the thematic purpose of your champions (using Yasuo as an example).

KellenGrace·5/23/2015, 5:43:57 PM·54 votes·3,598 views

Let's be honest, I'm not super happy about the buff. He's back to being 20/1 half the goddamn games he's in, and he was pretty perfectly balanced before (unless you're a Yasuo main and then he tots was underpowered), but you jumped on the evened out seesaw like a fat Hulk Hogan. The problem with Yasuo is that he's always going to be all or nothing, and this is principally because of the way you've begun to shove anything you can think of into your champions because it makes them "flashy."

But in all honesty, his kit is designed like a twelve year old's first DnD character. He's a hodgepodge of things you'd like to have on a carry just haphazardly thrown onto this or that ability because it feels nice to at least split them up.

Let's start in on one of his more iconic, more complained about abilities; the Windwall. Yes, we get the windwall is a neat little idea you came up with, but combining a directional damage void with an extremely high mobility champion is peculiar if you don't try to balance him out with low survivability, which you keep claiming is unfair for him because of reasons that amount to little more than really "loving his kit design." It's not thematically sound for a wind Ronin for several reasons.

1: His design is not as a tank. I can understand a defensively geared champion, such as Braum, having something to defend himself and his allies from the opponent. That makes sense; it's using the wind to save people. That has never been in Yasuo's lore in any real way. He is motivated by revenge, the ability to cut his opponents to pieces, to wreak havoc in retribution for his being accused of murder. He killed his own damn brother, and the only time IN HIS LIFE he was tasked with defense, he dashed away to murder festival instead. Windwall is absolutely not cohesive with his champion design or his lore.

2: It holds no real relation to his other skills. In many champions, there is a unifying concept; Teemo poisons his opponents, moves rapidly, blinds his victims, and leaves traps. These are all geared towards his central concept of debilitating his opponents, wearing them down, evading their counterattacks, and going in for the kill while they are unable to fight back, all central concepts that scream scout! Ezreal centralizes around his bow, augmented with the easy, not entirely earned power of the relic he controls: he fires magical bolts accomplishing several objectives, and, rather than running to his opponents, he uses his relic to teleport closer and exploit what would be seen as an "unfair" advantage. Kassadin utilizes the power he ripped from the void by force to augment his physical power and drain his mortal foes, while using his mastery of the void to step in and out of it at will. Etc. This does not hold for Yasuo's windwall, except in the tenuous justification of "it involves wind." He's not a defender, and never has been.

From there, let's move on to his ultimate. I love its design. Adore it. It's a brilliant idea, except for one little thing. The reasonless armor pen. He should do damage with the ability. It's flashy, it's emphatic, it is exploiting the weakness and vulnerability of his opponents, and that is absolutely awesome. Hell, I can understand a percentage armor penetration on the strike itself, because that's a compromised position he's got his enemies in, and it's a great reward for a somewhat difficult setup. But the armor penetration comes AFTER. Not only does it come after, it's against ALL targets, and it's 50 goddamn percent. That's MASSIVE, and it doesn't make any sense at all. He's not suddenly waving around a sword made of wind, and even if he was, that would be very effective against enemies without armor on them, slicing deep if it encountered nothing more than leather or skin. But wind on metal is always going to be a difficult thing to sell as "piercing." Again, it's thematically unsound. I could even see it as working for his victimized opponents, but not for 15 seconds, and certainly not for everything he hits. It's not reasonable, and there's no justification for it besides "I want him to be able to melt a team once he gets that setup" which, let's be honest, isn't even that hard.

And Yasuo isn't the only champion you've done this with recently. Ashe now has permanent slow and a ridiculous permanent critical effect. I can see the slow, given the nature of her bow, but why it automatically criticals is beyond me. Ice increases the vulnerability of every organic thing, but no other ice ability in the game has that effect, and it has zero cohesion with the rest of her kit as you've (randomly) modified it! Gnar is always going to be unreliable to a point that you yourselves admit he was never planned to be used at high level play, just a walking gimmick you put together because reasons. Kalista is the soul of vengeance, but you made her best at running away (and before the nerf, that was where she was best suited!). You made poor Rek'sai completely unbalanceable by throwing everything you could at her with the long term tunneling effect, rather than making her a focused, monstrous gank monster, simply throwing absurdly high values at her to compensate for what you knew would eventually be a serious problem champion.

I'm not saying you guys are terrible. I'm not. I love this game, and I have a lot of faith in you. However That's exactly why I think you can do better! This current method of tossing the kitchen sink at your new champions is just bizarre, and isn't helping your credibility, isn't helping your game, simply producing champions that you can't possibly hope to balance for more than a few weeks at most.

Please, Riot, give us what we love this game for. Give us what really made us fall in love with your champions, your game. Try to make them feel like people! Make it feel like we're immersed in the champions we play, rather than throwing stats against each other until one random number or the other ends up being better.

For me. For all of your players. For the future of your game. Please.

Put the same effort into your game that we loved you for when we came here.

79 Comments

Transgressor5/23/2015, 9:09:33 PM27 votes

If his stupid gamebraking double critical chance passive doesn't change, he will always be like that.

terkmc5/23/2015, 11:33:54 PM18 votes

Dude, bullshit. In Ashe Background she did not enchant magic to her bow, she found a magical bow underneath the Frejlord burial cairn. Magical. Bow. Not Magical Ass, Magical Bow. The magic to slow is in the bow and as long as she's using it the bow, she use the magic in the bow to slow. She cant just pick up a random bow on the street and shoot ice arrow with it

Kouga5/24/2015, 4:03:58 AM14 votes

Not everything can fit perfectly into the canon in-game world (HOW DO THESE PEOPLE SURVIVE GETTING SHOT WITH BULLETS AND CANNONS AND GIANT ANCHORS) but they do a pretty good job.

As a mADC, Yasuo needs ways to 1. Get to, and stay in, melee range 2. Survive both harassment and large amounts of damage in a teamfight and 3. Generally have some kind of damage steroid to keep up with other carries, most of whom are much safer

Master Yi has 1. His Ultimate for sticking power, 2. His Meditation to soak high amounts of damage and sustain, and 3. Has his two passives (his actual Passive and his AD scaling passive) for damage output

Tryndamere has 1. His spin/slow for sticking power, 2. His heal for sustain and his Ultimate for, well, everything that makes him a nightmare, and 3. Crit scaling through his passive (which honestly is more powerful in the early game, since he gets up to 35% free crit chance, and doesn't have the damage reduction that Yas has)

I could go on but point is, thematic or not, Yasuo needs similar design to function in this role. So just first off, accept that he'll need these elements.

Now, let's look at theme.

That makes sense; it's using the wind to save people. That has never been in Yasuo's lore in any real way. He is motivated by revenge, the ability to cut his opponents to pieces, to wreak havoc in retribution for his being accused of murder. He killed his own damn brother, and the only time IN HIS LIFE he was tasked with defense, he dashed away to murder festival instead.

That is a shallow look at Yasuo's lore. You make him out as a madman, a bloodthirsty homicidal killer on the hunt.

Yasuo left his post because he was the best and brightest pupil in Ionia. He was the only one who had mastered the Wind Technique, so when Noxus invaded, he believed in his heart that he was the only one who could save his country. When he realized his mistake, he turned himself in willingly, to accept his failures. It was only when he was mistakenly accused of murder that he fled, fighting to survive but not wanting to kill his kinsmen.

All the while, he was relentlessly hunted by his former allies, continually forced to fight or die.

He wants to bring the killer to justice, to regain some semblance of his honor - if he is going to be disgraced, its going to be for the right reasons, darn it.

He is a talented swordsman but not a savage killer. He wants justice. So why not defend his allies along the way - something that he wishes he could have done on the fields against Noxus, or when fighting against former friends.

His kit fits pretty well within this theme. He is a samurai that mastered the wind. His passive, both the crit and the shield, fit into his idea of being an expert, peerless swordsman. His strength is in his speed; his sword cuts down foes, quickly landing wounds far more devastating than you'd expect (crit), and he can defend himself against a strike in the blink of an eye (shield). His Q is a classic; based on the "Iaido": smooth, controlled movements of drawing the sword from its scabbard or saya, striking or cutting an opponent, removing blood from the blade, and then replacing the sword in the scabbard. It fits to his samurai theme, and the tornado fits with his Wind Technique.

His Wind Wall - aside from the obvious conditions of The Wind, I also see this as a way for him to cut down through an army. He's supposed to be this peerless swordsman, but how would a samurai survive against a wave of arrows by an enemy army? By scattering them, blocking them with a surge of wind. The very air around him moves to his call, shaping to his will. Its a very brief duration, but it allows him to engage a target while defending himself from ranged enemies. This even fits how he plays in game - he uses it more when he is engaging, where Braum might save it for when the enemy engages. Watch a game with a Yas main, they use it aggressively, not just defensively.

His dash, again, he weaves through a battlefield, moving from one enemy to the next..

You see what I mean? His kit and theme are actually quite cohesive, IMO, and they do the best job they can of marrying theme and canon with gameplay and mechanics.

aaronconlin5/23/2015, 9:01:01 PM9 votes

Originally Yasuo was supposed to be a utility mADC. One that even when behind, could provide utility to his team. However, keeping things like his critical strike chance and damage abilities strong made Riot nerf his other areas, instead of the other way around, and like you said, doesn't really fit with who he is as a person.

FirexSaber5/23/2015, 8:32:49 PM9 votes

I feel like most kits in the game have at least one ability that doesn't make sense thematically. Nidalee has a heal because... why? Same with Xin Zhao's w passive. Then there's really old champions like Taric- what theme was his kit trying to get across at all? (Yes I know he's getting reworked, but just an example.) I think that thematic cohesion isn't a new problem, but one that has persisted from the very beginning. It's something to be improved on though. Definitely agree with you there.

Troy2426215/23/2015, 8:46:31 PM8 votes

The thing with Yasuo is, his passive and all of his skills except Windwall say "I want to be a MADC."

Then his Windwall and Flow shield comes in and says "I want to be a defensive tank that provides utility and support for my team."

Then his ultimate's passive says "I want to stick and and deal sustained damage with autoattacks."

A lot of the needless bullsh*t muddying his kit can be explained with one single name. CertainlyT. His kit can work but God does it need some serious changes, and it won't please everybody.

It's also pretty bad that I expect these design problems with CT. Overstuffed kits, tun of passives, tun of re-activated skills, tun of role confusion. Fingerprints are all over Yasuo and it shows.

UberAffe5/23/2015, 5:52:47 PM6 votes

I really don't have anything more to add to this. I hope riot sees this and takes it to heart!

Downfall5/23/2015, 8:39:52 PM6 votes

{quoted}

But the armor penetration comes AFTER. Not only does it come after, it's against ALL targets, and it's 50 goddamn percent. That's MASSIVE, and it doesn't make any sense at all. He's not suddenly waving around a sword made of wind, and even if he was, that would be very effective against enemies without armor on them, slicing deep if it encountered nothing more than leather or skin. But wind on metal is always going to be a difficult thing to sell as "piercing." Again, it's thematically unsound. I could even see it as working for his victimized opponents, but not for 15 seconds, and certainly not for everything he hits. It's not reasonable, and there's no justification for it besides "I want him to be able to melt a team once he gets that setup" which, let's be honest, isn't even that hard.

One thing i would like to point out, it penetrates 50% of BONUS armor, meaning armor from runes/masteries/items, not just base stats. But Yeah i agree with you, its too high.

The Bardic Gay5/24/2015, 5:33:35 AM5 votes

Personally, I think windwall is a solid concept with dogshit execution.

Yasuo has the overall theme that's a bit of a duality, the ronin, and the idea of a samurai who wields his blade with such speed and grace that he bends the wind. It seems like a solid concept on paper that's reflected well in his gameplay patterns... he's given bonuses for wandering around, and the wind aspect is pretty obvious... but the application of these concepts leaves a lot to be desired, especially on windwall.

Windwall should feel like a reactionary skill. The entire basis of the skill is the trope in which a skilled swordsman can cut a projectile in mid flight and render it useless, and that fits in with the concept in it's own unique way, but... the way it's applied is so bad, it actually destroys the fantasy it's trying to invoke. The wall sticks around for way too long for the fantasy to be invoked, and it really had no business staying for anything longer than a second, full stop. It should be quick, it should be reactionary, carefully chosen denials of serious projectile threats, preferably one that fizzles upon impact with the first champion-based projectile that comes into contact with it. THAT would be a thematically charming skill that still serves it's purpose of defending yasuo, but not his entire team, and has grater options to play against and by reducing the raw strength of the skill, allows for a shorter cooldown (perhaps even with conditional reductions based on flow? Flow is criminally under-implemented. mo flow mo show imo.) and therefore, allows for a greater amount of precision and skill for yasuo players to master.

That being said, I agree on most of your points, (that being said, the frost magic is a matter of the bow, not ashe, and i think reksai is a strong concept with iffy implementation, but i think that your criticism has more to do with different conceptual outlooks of what reksai is compared to what riot envisions her as (ground based gank hunter vs tunnel system opportunist hunter)) especially on the ridiculously tacked on 50 bonus pen. All in all, good post.

OperationDEEZ15/23/2015, 6:52:19 PM5 votes

I want to like Yasuo. I really want to like Yasuo. His character kicks so much ass. But I just can't.

Leblancs Boob5/25/2015, 12:32:06 AM4 votes

Yasuo seriously needs to be treated like Poppy . When he's strong he literally breaks the game. Keep him bad until there is actually a weakness to his kit.

redbull papi5/24/2015, 11:28:47 PM3 votes

Oh god, the Yasuo QQers are back.

Mandang05/23/2015, 8:23:05 PM3 votes

Really well-written, and even if a few of the points seem a bit tickytacky (Ashe), I agree with the general gist.

P4ppino5/25/2015, 7:33:10 AM2 votes

You just don't want Yasuo to have windwall. Yasuo is an extremely awesome champion with all these new champs, as they have a nice and fitting kit. The windwall is what makes Yasuo himself, a lone samurai, wandering around, trying to defend himself while seeking the true killer of the elder, cutting down everyone who stand in his way. And the windwall is not meant to protect his whole team, its to protect HIMSELF, as you will not jump in front of the enemy team, cuz you will die instantly. Yasuo is an assassin/fighter, who excels in cleanups and followups.

KING OF MASKS5/23/2015, 7:07:24 PM2 votes

Wonderful thread, but I doubt it'll accomplish anything. Sorry for the cynicism.

WhiteSpheres5/26/2015, 9:08:54 PM1 votes

I think you have to remember Riot doesn't purely base a champions abilities/passives on the lore of a champion. There are many examples of champions having abilities in their kit that isnt in the lores that Riot released. Examples such as Yasuo and Ashe. If they did this champions kit's would be extremely boring, such as Zac. Now, to go on about Yasuo. On release, and a couple months after, Yasuo was insanely strong, and some may say broken. However, since then and now, Yasuo has been in a pretty health state I would say. I mained Yasuo from his release basically up until now. His power during that time as definitely decreased, which was needed. His abilities are given to make "flashy plays", because he is a high skill cap champion. The wind wall make not deal any damage, however, it does allow him to defend for himself and allows him to deal damage and make the plays. I will agree, Riot does tend to make champions, have them extremely strong, and then nerf them. However, on the other side, they've released champions that are extremely weak on release, some being Vel'Koz, Bard, and Lucian (remember I'm talking about on release). I wish they would stop doing this, but this is their game and they can do whatever they wish. I believe you're taking the lore and roles of each champion too seriously when it comes to game play and mechanics.

~Spheres

Gavran5/24/2015, 11:07:25 AM1 votes

Or in other words, "I think Yasuo is OP and I don't like him, take him away."

If you really believe your point about themes it's honestly lost in the QQ.