Riot what did u do to Garen on PBE?

brickyorchid10·Sep 1, 2019·25 votes·15,226 views

Let me start off by saying that i am a Garen main.I mostly play garen top in my ranked games. Ok so...i was that they wanted to make his e an on-hit ability that gets stronger with attack speed. But then i saw that his w max stacks has been lowered and his vilain passive has been removed. So i was like:"Ok so his e shoud be rly op"...And it was i was countless videos of Garen winning a 1v3 or a 2v5 with just 1 e. And i said in my mind:"They can't let that out of PBE" But now they removed the on-hit effect on his e so now the only thing new about him is the attack speed scaling. This is just stupid.So as a bruiser i shoud take AS items that would make me squishy just so my e does 100-200 bonus dmg. It's just a plain stupid idea. So please Riot just solve his real problem:He can be outplayed and kited like hell.By adding a lot of dmg on his e won't solve a thing.

So TL;DR:Riot just don't do it.It is stupid

49 Comments

DynikusSep 1, 201919 votes

He can be outplayed and kited like hell

That's intended, yes. If he couldn't be, what would his main weakness be?

Judah BotSep 1, 201910 votes

And if they REALLY wanted to give Garen better scaling on E, then let it scale with AD - A stat that Garen actually wants to build, but often foregoes for HP (which he scales better with, currently). (I don't mean just nudge the AD scaling on E a percent or two, although that would be fine. They're giving E more spins with AS. So, instead, give it more spins with bonus AD. That would be so much better.)

RtClickSep 2, 20194 votes

[{quoted}](name=Judah Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JhljgHhx,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-09-01T15:43:54.096+0000)

And if they REALLY wanted to give Garen better scaling on E, then let it scale with AD - A stat that Garen actually wants to build, but often foregoes for HP (which he scales better with, currently). (I don't mean just nudge the AD scaling on E a percent or two, although that would be fine. They're giving E more spins with AS. So, instead, give it more spins with bonus AD. That would be so much better.)

This was my exact suggestion to Riste.

Judah BotSep 2, 20194 votes

{quoted}

This was my exact suggestion to Riste.

apparently, riste is not directly involved with the project anymore. Axes is no longer handling it; it was turned over to a team.

Lrrr OmicronianSep 3, 20193 votes

{quoted}

This was my exact suggestion to Riste.

riste doesn't actually do Riot's champion development, though...

This is already gone to design phase. What we have on PBE is essentially what they are planning to put live in a month.

Judah BotSep 1, 20198 votes

OP point is: the AS scaling doesn't even make up for the removal of Villain Mechanic from Garen power budget. It certainly doesn't warrant total W nerfs on W active AND W passive. Villain mechanic was an enormous part of Garen power budget. The AS scaling, as some of you pointed out, is OPTIONAL at best. There just aren't AS items that Garen wants to build, unless TF. It's difficult for Garen to safely lane while building attack speed.

But EVEN if the AS scalings are considered a buff, that buff couldn't possibly be the equivalent of Garen entire Villain Mechanic PLUS cutting his W ability (really his best ability) in half.

Garen on PBE currently must be considered a net nerf. He wasn't exactly a strong champion to begin with...

Divin1tySep 1, 20194 votes

This is just stupid.So as a bruiser i shoud take AS items that would make me squishy just so my e does 100-200 bonus dmg.

A lot of Bruisers have very good AD Scalings. Does that prevent you from not going full AD and actually buy Resistances (yes, they are a meme, thanks to Void Staff and M Pen, but let's pretend).

wolviusSep 1, 20193 votes

There are some notable improvements, his passive is stronger scaling per level instead of at 11. More early game ticks in E means less missed minions and overall smoother feel. Read somewhere that his E is now coded to be able to apply multiple stacks of conqueror, I'm guessing per tick which means don't have to go pred/grasp/phase rush as only options.

His E is better in lane it might actually be worth putting points into because the spins aint brickwalled behind levels.

Lrrr OmicronianSep 4, 20193 votes

Leave Garen alone.

Moody PSep 1, 20192 votes

buying attack speed items won't make you squishy with how much defense you get out of items like phantom dancer and DD

Divin1tySep 1, 201915 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JhljgHhx,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-09-01T11:03:03.371+0000)

buying attack speed items won't make you squishy with how much defense you get out of items like phantom dancer and DD

What a shit build that would be.

Moody PSep 1, 20193 votes

Crit Garen is objectively his strongest build now

Crispy0SnakeSep 1, 20193 votes

What is the build for that? I'm not convinced it'd be better than Trinity/Ghostblade

Moody PSep 1, 20193 votes

My current theorycraft is trinity PD ER IE DD with boots of your choice. Have considered swapping TF out for a cheaper but weaker item to reach full build sooner.

You're a lot tankier than you would think by looking at this build and the damage output is insane. You're also much faster than other builds excluding actives like righteous and ghostblade

IllabetheSep 1, 20198 votes

Which scares me. Garen's one of the only champs left who reliably becomes a team centerpiece where all decisions made by an opponent are around him.

2Charmnot2CharmSep 1, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JhljgHhx,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-09-01T11:03:03.371+0000)

buying attack speed items won't make you squishy with how much defense you get out of items like phantom dancer and DD

They could also make use of this item 3091 vs ap matchup/team and still get whatever else he needs.

brickyorchid10Sep 1, 20192 votes

{quoted}

They could also make use of this vs ap matchup/team and still get whatever else he needs. You can't they disabled his e on-hit dmg

2Charmnot2CharmSep 1, 20191 votes

{quoted}

You can't they disabled his e on-hit dmg

Oh i see, phantom dancer it is then.

MätthewSep 1, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JhljgHhx,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-09-01T11:03:03.371+0000)

buying attack speed items won't make you squishy with how much defense you get out of items like phantom dancer and DD

Wits end as well

Gaius BaltarSep 2, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JhljgHhx,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-09-01T11:03:03.371+0000)

buying attack speed items won't make you squishy with how much defense you get out of items like phantom dancer and DD

Why don't you comment from your real account? Blurting out an opinion from a level 7 account whose last game is so long ago that the API doesn't record it anymore doesn't really back up your opinion quite well.

Moody PSep 2, 20191 votes

why are gold and silver players so concerned with me needing to back my opinion up with my rank when they're so insistent that I shouldn't insult them for theirs

Literal IRL TreeSep 2, 20193 votes

I mean crit garen is dog shit, im guessing you aren't higher than gold.

Edit: before you op.gg my acc im d3.

Moody PSep 2, 20191 votes

cool. im diamond 2

Literal IRL TreeSep 3, 20192 votes

Really? Any proof? I mean I can say im Master tier if i post from a pre 30 alt account.

Lrrr OmicronianSep 3, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JhljgHhx,comment-id=00020003000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-02T22:00:46.614+0000)

cool. im diamond 2

It would be unusual for a high MMR player to support changes that might benefit Garen in low MMR (but will absolutely weaken him for high MMR). Without mobility or CC, the only thing that lets Garen stay playable in high MMR is that he can consistently score on a relevant target in lategame. Proposed Garen will not be able to do that. The first thing that riste said EVEN when he supported the changes, was that Garen will now fall off in late game, much like other Juggs such as Darius and Renekton. (And other than the Conqueror addition, I understand that riste is no longer happy with the rework.)

Star PlatinumELOSep 1, 20192 votes

Garen is getting changes to his passive which makes it scale better, and is also getting more attack speed per level, which just makes his E feel like it does late game earlier, the villain passives removal comes with the change to his ult ALWAYS dealing true damage. Less defences from the W comes with the tradeoff of his e hitting harder in the mid game, which in turn means you can go for a tank item in place of a second damage item. the added AS scaling is probably there just for people to fuck around with, much like trynd's to this day AP ratios.

McsquzzySep 2, 20192 votes

Someone pointed out and did the math on another post, the result of his e changes, if AS per level applies is that new e is stronger since it stars at 8 and moves to 10 at max level with no attack speed built. So it's literally the same with another build option to his kit.

EATARISep 2, 20192 votes

The issue is that he gained a build option in exchange for raw defensive stats and comeback potential from his ultimate’s passive. Thus, anything that isn’t the new AS build will be weaker than it was previously.

Gaius BaltarSep 2, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Someone pointed out and did the math on another post, the result of his e changes, if AS per level applies is that new e is stronger since it stars at 8 and moves to 10 at max level with no attack speed built. So it's literally the same with another build option to his kit.

Honestly if anyone applies some brainpower to this they'll realize that levels ~4 to 9 PBE Garen is much stronger than the current one without any Attack Speed, especially if he fights in minions since the PBE version still gets bonus damage without having to isolate someone. His passive is also stronger at every point in the game except for levels 11 to 13, maybe also 14, depending on how much you actually ended up using the empowered heal.

People also constantly overestimate his villain damage. Level 16 Garen gets 11% max HP true damage with Q and a full E. For comparison that's a single Fiora vital hit when she has 200 bonus AD, which is a bit more than 2 items for her. It seems like much more because Garen ult would kill villains when they are still above half HP. The ult on the PBE generally kills at around half HP and you're no longer useless if a low priority target happens to be the villain and you're not fed, because you can frontline and have a strong finisher against a tank.

The best thing about the rework is that Garen only loses a combined 40 late game resistances for a pretty good midgame, laning, E damage, multi-target damage, better than ever synergy with Trinity Force and access to conqueror, which will generally up the lategame power of any champion who can proc it quickly. 20 Armor and another 20 MR... Honestly if you have played a laning phase with PBE Garen you will not care at all.

Lrrr OmicronianSep 3, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Honestly if anyone applies some brainpower to this they'll realize that levels ~4 to 9 PBE Garen is much stronger than the current one without any Attack Speed, especially if he fights in minions since the PBE version still gets bonus damage without having to isolate someone. His passive is also stronger at every point in the game except for levels 11 to 13, maybe also 14, depending on how much you actually ended up using the empowered heal.

People also constantly overestimate his villain damage. Level 16 Garen gets 11% max HP true damage with Q and a full E. For comparison that's a single Fiora vital hit when she has 200 bonus AD, which is a bit more than 2 items for her. It seems like much more because Garen ult would kill villains when they are still above half HP. The ult on the PBE generally kills at around half HP and you're no longer useless if a low priority target happens to be the villain and you're not fed, because you can frontline and have a strong finisher against a tank.

You're ignoring the Villain passive damage, which is considerable.

The best thing about the rework is that Garen only loses a combined 40 late game resistances for a pretty good midgame, laning, E damage, multi-target damage, better than ever synergy with Trinity Force and access to conqueror, which will generally up the lategame power of any champion who can proc it quickly. 20 Armor and another 20 MR... Honestly if you have played a laning phase with PBE Garen you will not care at all.

It's not so much the missing resistances, or even the slower stacking. The most hurtful part of the nerf is the increased CD on the ability. And there is nothing that they did to his kit, that makes the nerf necessary in the first place.

Giving an AS scaling on E does not = pushing W back to 2 years ago.

The change to the Villain mechanic on R active could be seen as net neutral. With the removal of the passive damage, it's a nerf. That could be ok - people have a lot of gripes with Villain Mechanic. But they have to put that power back somewhere, and they haven't.

Gaius BaltarSep 5, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lrrr Omicronian,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JhljgHhx,comment-id=000c00010000,timestamp=2019-09-03T16:16:10.774+0000)

You're ignoring the Villain passive damage, which is considerable.

There is an entire paragraph on the villain damage and its considerability which you seem to have skipped. I mentioned the entire damage the villain mechanic is going to deal at level 16 with one combo, that being 1% of the targets max HP as true damage with each auto and each spin, so Q + 10 spins from E is 11% target max HP true damage. I compared it to a single Fiora vital hit when she has 200 AD. You and many others overestimate the villain damage, especially against Squishies.

It's not so much the missing resistances, or even the slower stacking. The most hurtful part of the nerf is the increased CD on the ability. And there is nothing that they did to his kit, that makes the nerf necessary in the first place.

I'm sorry, but I can't find a changelist where the cooldown is increased except for the original week 1 changelist. The current PBE iteration that is now over 2 weeks old doesn't mention a cooldown increase on Garen W. Or on any of his abilities for that matter.

Giving an AS scaling on E does not = pushing W back to 2 years ago.

The change to the Villain mechanic on R active could be seen as net neutral. With the removal of the passive damage, it's a nerf. That could be ok - people have a lot of gripes with Villain Mechanic. But they have to put that power back somewhere, and they haven't.

Removing the Villain damage in exchange for better base damage (yes, E base damage goes up and more spins = more applications of the base damage and the ratio) and the possibility of scaling is a net nerf if the villain was to be a tank for live garen, which gets equalized by giving Garen access to Conqueror, which will outdamage live Villain damage and a buff everywhere else.

Everyone who is upset here should take more than just a glance at the numbers before complaining. Many people even think that Garen E received nerfs, but that is wrong aswell. This is nothing you said but I just wanna set the record for others straight.

Live Garen rank 1 E applies 14 (+36%AD) 5 times (at least until level 4).

PBE Garen applies 9 (+26%AD) 8 times.

Many people see 14 (+36%AD) > 9 (+26%AD) and write if off as a nerf without even looking at the possibility than ×5 < ×8 and the ×8 making more of a difference than the damage/spin loss, which it does. The overall damage of a level 1 spin is higher on the PBE. The E damage is so much higher than live E that it easily makes up for the villain passive damage until at least 2,5k HP on an enemy target.

PlaymakêrSep 5, 20193 votes

{quoted}

There is an entire paragraph on the villain damage and its considerability which you seem to have skipped. I mentioned the entire damage the villain mechanic is going to deal at level 16 with one combo, that being 1% of the targets max HP as true damage with each auto and each spin, so Q + 10 spins from E is 11% target max HP true damage. I compared it to a single Fiora vital hit when she has 200 AD. You and many others overestimate the villain damage, especially against Squishies.

I'm sorry, but I can't find a changelist where the cooldown is increased except for the original week 1 changelist. The current PBE iteration that is now over 2 weeks old doesn't mention a cooldown increase on Garen W. Or on any of his abilities for that matter.

Removing the Villain damage in exchange for better base damage (yes, E base damage goes up and more spins = more applications of the base damage and the ratio) and the possibility of scaling is a net nerf if the villain was to be a tank for live garen, which gets equalized by giving Garen access to Conqueror, which will outdamage live Villain damage and a buff everywhere else.

Everyone who is upset here should take more than just a glance at the numbers before complaining. Many people even think that Garen E received nerfs, but that is wrong aswell. This is nothing you said but I just wanna set the record for others straight.

Live Garen rank 1 E applies 14 (+36%AD) 5 times (at least until level 4).

PBE Garen applies 9 (+26%AD) 8 times.

Many people see 14 (+36%AD) > 9 (+26%AD) and write if off as a nerf without even looking at the possibility than ×5 < ×8 and the ×8 making more of a difference than the damage/spin loss, which it does. The overall damage of a level 1 spin is higher on the PBE. The E damage is so much higher than live E that it easily makes up for the villain passive damage until at least 2,5k HP on an enemy target.

Don’t want to discuss all of this but for those who skipped maths in Elementary school 14x5=70 while 9x8 =72 But if you start with a Dorans Blade and Adaptive Force in the Runes you start with +20 Bonus AD = that means 14x5=70 + 20x0,36= 7,2 =77,2 while 9x8+20x0,26=77,2 Which means it’s neither a buff or a nerf to the e at levl 1 with Dorans Blade only.

That means on the other hand you will only have a buff to the E spell if you built squishy AS Items while it’s overall a nerf to a standard off tank built like Black Cleaver+ Steraks etc... especially if you think of the fact that you could before gain up 10 spins by reaching levl 16 without buying anything but just by levering up. Now you won’t gain those extra spins if you don’t built squishy AS. Also you get the nerds on W and Villan Passive on top of that which I guess might equal out with the R changes to permernent true dmg for the r but I guess that’s more of a low elo buff Instead of something you could profit in higher elo. So overall still a nerf to me as you are forced to built a relatively expensive and also squishy AS\crit/Triforce built which only gets you going when ahead and often just does not work the best in certain situations/matchups.

Kiwi LemonadeSep 2, 20192 votes

It is a little disappointing, I don't play top often and when I get filled as it I usually play Garen, and do quite well. His weakness is kiting and his strength is tankiness and ease-to-play. But scaling with Attack Speed on his E makes no sense, in how the ability looks, feels, his champion lore, and his bruiser status. He was fine where he was, an easy champion that already received a rework... I'm surprised they spent even a second of time on it instead of the fiddle/voli reworks, or various other reworks needed.

The people who liked Garen liked him as is, those people won't play him and I doubt any newcomers will either - why build a slow, attack speed reliant champion when Udyr and Master Yi accomplish the same yet a thousand times better. Not to mention remove on-hits just about killed him.

You gutted a fair-and-balanced champion, tore open his tanky elements, and gave him scaling that make no sense for a champion of his nature. Which, in all honesty I do not believe needed any changes at all. His winrate is fine, his player base is fine, and he is (Was) a great champion for newbies to top lane. Oh well, all in the name of keeping the game with a rework every month "fresh" since it wasn't already.

Lrrr OmicronianSep 3, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kiwi Lemonade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JhljgHhx,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2019-09-02T13:00:32.807+0000)

It is a little disappointing, I don't play top often and when I get filled as it I usually play Garen, and do quite well. His weakness is kiting and his strength is tankiness and ease-to-play. But scaling with Attack Speed on his E makes no sense, in how the ability looks, feels, his champion lore, and his bruiser status. He was fine where he was, an easy champion that already received a rework... I'm surprised they spent even a second of time on it instead of the fiddle/voli reworks, or various other reworks needed.

The people who liked Garen liked him as is, those people won't play him and I doubt any newcomers will either - why build a slow, attack speed reliant champion when Udyr and Master Yi accomplish the same yet a thousand times better. Not to mention remove on-hits just about killed him.

You gutted a fair-and-balanced champion, tore open his tanky elements, and gave him scaling that make no sense for a champion of his nature. Which, in all honesty I do not believe needed any changes at all. His winrate is fine, his player base is fine, and he is (Was) a great champion for newbies to top lane. Oh well, all in the name of keeping the game with a rework every month "fresh" since it wasn't already.

So much this.

hazerddexSep 1, 20191 votes

yes garen needs less tank as it is right now he can literally walk out of 1v5 un harmed. due to having a self healing ability, and being able to reduce cc on himself while at the same time allowed to have a speed boost and deal true damage.

Romans VI XXIIISep 1, 20191 votes

They are literally 100% buffing E.

Current E and PBE E deal near identical damage at all stages of the game with no items, or with identical AD. With PBE E doing slightly more.

Then when you start adding in AS PBE E deals far more damage.

item 3078 alone adds 2 more spins to E, AND it's very strong with Current Garen, let alone PBE garen.

plantersSep 1, 20191 votes

So if you look at all of the changes riot is doing to Garen you'll quickly realize that they are massively buffing his early game by just giving him more raw damage. The part where his E is losing damage in SOME cases does not change the fact that he is getting a %HP true damage execute for his ult. His level 6 is going to be disgusting because it means he'll have a garen-teed chance of killing literally anyone on the map.

Judah BotSep 2, 20194 votes

{quoted}

So if you look at all of the changes riot is doing to Garen you'll quickly realize that they are massively buffing his early game by just giving him more raw damage. The part where his E is losing damage in SOME cases does not change the fact that he is getting a %HP true damage execute for his ult. His level 6 is going to be disgusting because it means he'll have a garen-teed chance of killing literally anyone on the map.

He loses all of the damage of the Villain passive. So, there is no way to calculate that R is not a net nerf. He does a couple percent more damage to %80 of the team, and much less damage to %20 of the team. You might say, that it's still better for Garen to have a consistent True Damage Ult, but that doesn't change the fact that that ability is going to to less total damage by the numbers now, in any game.

Personally, I think that too many players underappreciate the value and elegance of Garens Villain Mechanic.

BârdSep 1, 20191 votes

It's not much of a rework anymore, tbh, but it's still a net positive.

On-hit Garen might be dead now, but don't forget that Crit Garen is still a thing, and more terrifying than ever.

item 3078 item 3047 item 3031 item 3087 item 3813 item 3065 I'm going in coach.

Summoner SpeIISep 2, 20191 votes

as someone who plays garen in high elo (around masters elo) i feel like garen is a worthless champion that literally loses all match ups top except irelia, who he beats with ease. Even a good riven absolutely shits on garen to the point where he can't play, and im talking about masters+ riven, not bad riven mains in diamond or lower, and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOI2ZQl3ibk this video explains that garen has never seen play competitively, if u want garen to be viable in pro play he needs these buffs badly to even be considered as a bottom tier pick for pro scene

Mr209e2sSep 2, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Summoner SpeII,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JhljgHhx,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2019-09-02T01:38:16.345+0000)

as someone who plays garen in high elo (around masters elo) i feel like garen is a worthless champion that literally loses all match ups top except irelia, who he beats with ease. Even a good riven absolutely shits on garen to the point where he can't play, and im talking about masters+ riven, not bad riven mains in diamond or lower, and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOI2ZQl3ibk this video explains that garen has never seen play competitively, if u want garen to be viable in pro play he needs these buffs badly to even be considered as a bottom tier pick for pro scene

Too bad he's a meta pick in Eu and has seen pro play and it not being troll

Judah BotSep 2, 20194 votes

[{quoted}](name=Summoner SpeII,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JhljgHhx,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2019-09-02T01:38:16.345+0000)

as someone who plays garen in high elo (around masters elo) i feel like garen is a worthless champion that literally loses all match ups top except irelia, who he beats with ease. Even a good riven absolutely shits on garen to the point where he can't play, and im talking about masters+ riven, not bad riven mains in diamond or lower, and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOI2ZQl3ibk this video explains that garen has never seen play competitively, if u want garen to be viable in pro play he needs these buffs badly to even be considered as a bottom tier pick for pro scene

They aren't buffs. The Garen on PBE right now is actually nerfed.

Garen has few good matchups, in large part because he is a scaling champ with a weak early game.His peak is lvl 11-16, and thanks to Villain Mechanic he doesn't even fall off much after 16, as many other Juggernauts are prone to.

JackMcCarrySep 2, 20191 votes

Didnt his old E have crit scaling? It's more for niche builds, also, witts end and trinity might be good options.

brickyorchid10Sep 2, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Didnt his old E have crit scaling? It's more for niche builds, also, witts end and trinity might be good options.

yes it does

Judah BotSep 2, 20194 votes

{quoted}

Didnt his old E have crit scaling? It's more for niche builds, also, witts end and trinity might be good options.

It doesn't have "crit scaling". Garen E can crit for %50 bonus damage. It's not part of his power budget, it was included just for "fun builds" - it wasn't considered realistic that he would actually build crit meta. In Season 7 or so, with crit Runes, it became possible to add an IE to a build to boost E to it's old levels. The old JG Garen build did include PD.

JackMcCarrySep 2, 20191 votes

Yea, that's what i meant, bad wording. My point is i think that change is partially returning niche builds but instead of crit which is a far cry from stats Garen needs, AS can be "kinda" be built better into his items rather than IE.

BlackManTopLaneSep 2, 20191 votes

If it goes live.better go trinity to make somethig out of it atleast

Kegan ArtoSep 2, 20191 votes

honestly I think his E with the on-hit effect at 50% damage was a bit busted simply because of how absurdly fast his E can tick but I don't think they should have fully removed it, but instead nerf it a bit.

Instead of doing 50% of on-hit effects every single tick maybe change it to 33% so instead of half damage it's a third damage, but fully removing it was the wrong way to go.

Literal IRL TreeSep 2, 20191 votes

tri force alone would give you max spins that you would get (lvl 16) what are the boards lmao