Sightstones and Supports

mikemcparty·11/18/2016, 5:03:55 PM·6 votes·1,836 views

With the recent developments in this Singed Support and Riot's response to this player, I want to pose a question to supports. I would love to hear any responses. Riot released a statement basically saying that, as a support, one of your jobs is to purchase a sightstone and ward for you team. Understandably, people got upset about this.

So here is the conflict. Supports are getting upset that Riot is saying they need to take up an item slot and build sightstone because one of the jobs of a support is to provide vision. I would like to compare this statement to other roles/champions and talk about items that are considered as "must buys." Support job is to provide vision and support for team.

If you are a jungle, you are forced to take smite and forced to purchase a jungle item. That one is clearly obvious, but we never see junglers complain about this. One of the jobs of a jungler is to clear the jungle and provide map pressure. Jungle items help to accomplish that role. Jungler job is to provide pressure.

For a mid-lane, I'll use Diana as an example, since she is my most played mid/champ. When I play Diana, my job is to either provide sustained damage or to nuke squishies. Depending on my match-up, I need to buy item 3100 or item 3115 . Looking at all recommended guides, one of those two items is a must-buy. You never see Diana players complain. Our job is to do damage.

I don't want to talk about top lane, since there is A LOT of variability in that role. From what I have noticed, the people playing top, usually have a lot of versatility in the role. I usually play swain top, but I'll play kennen, gnar, diana, kassadin, etc. (just depends on the niche I need to fill)

Lastly, let's talk about ADC. Depending on which ADC you play, you have certain items you are locked into buying. ADCs have very little diversity in the items they buy because they ALWAYS build damage, even when behind. Their job is to build damage.

So let me get back to the point of the post. Riot told this guy that supports should always be buying one of the sightstone variants and people absolutely flipped. Every day, we ignore the items that are considered must-buys for different roles and champions? That doesn't make sense to me and is actually pretty aggravating.

Any thoughts? Interested to hear from supports on this or anyone else who can speak about their experience with "must-buy" items in certain roles?

81 Comments

MarshCreature11/18/2016, 5:26:25 PM6 votes

the main problem was't him just not buying a sight stone it was the fast he picked support went into the enemy jungle and sacrificed his adc for his selfish play style ,combine that with the fact he did not provide any vision no sight stone no wards just selfishly went to the jungle then went to gank top or mid while the adc gets killed and feeds becoming useless very early in the match he was imposing his play style in people that did not want to play with that selfish way of playing singed. a singed support has one job slow and flip people not to go into the jungle and abandon the lane like a bard would at least the bard has it in his utility kit and play style.

Krigjer11/20/2016, 7:14:59 PM2 votes

Supports have always been classified as utility champions- their kits give them the tools needed to help their team. Their job is not to pump out damage; it's to cc and heal. As such, they're not as reliant on items as other champions, and can actually afford to dedicate an entire slot to wards (sightstone).

Further, if you're playing SUPPORT, you're going to SUPPORT YOUR TEAM. Vision is a massive way to support your allies- I remember when you could buy and place more than three wards at a time. I'd have the entire map lit up in our favour if we were getting picked off too much.

Yes, with the free trinket now available, the entire team should be contributing to warding. But it makes me so angry for people to pick the support role and refuse to ward. You're basically telling me that you want to play a solo-lane champion but aren't good enough to do so, so you force yourself in a duo-lane with no intention of helping the team beyond damage.

Aptest11/18/2016, 6:22:44 PM2 votes

First: this is not my personal opinion on whether I specifically should be building SS.

  1. Riot released a statement basically saying that, as a support,

Riot did not say supports buy sight-stone. They said they acknowledge supports are expected by non support players (not by riot) to purchase sight-stone, and they believe the choice of delaying or outright not purchasing the sight stone is a legitimate game-play choice.

You have taken their acknowledgement and blown it out of proportion and (falsely) you claim it means riot is officially saying supports must purchase sight stone or 2 week suspension.

  1. Support job is to provide vision and support for team

how do you know? That is not necessarily the optimal path. In fact, I am more and more convinced lately that marksmen should be getting the Sight-Stone, and also leave all the farm alone and let the Zyra or Brand gobble it all up while they scale off passive gold and provide vision and utility while they are weak.

If we look at typical end game stats for Brand and Zyra, we see a lot of damage output. More than your diana. Since it is your job, as a mid lane, to provide control of the map in the mid game, and you have more opportunity to roam and more capacity to 1v1 opponents if you are caught, it stands to reason to have the responsibility of team vision to be for the mid laner.

What I am trying to say is this. What we have now is a "meta" which has developed organically. It has developed in some part because it is "statistically" optimal, but also because of a lot of stagnation, it stays the same even when it is shown it should change. the stagnation is caused by selfish players trying to throw "un-fun" tasks in game like warding onto others, or are just fixated on their way of playing.

For instance for about a year and a half the "optimal" play style was to organize a lane swap and to 3v1 the enemy first tower, and from the other side of the map have the top laner accompany the jungler and steal half the junlge XP. That was the optimal competitive play - y did we not see this in soloQ? because players are too stagnant and need their "comfort zone" and cant deal with different strategies even when they are shown time and again to be outright better, when they require first coordination but more important than that self sacrifice.

  1. Our job is to do damage.

From looking at a small sample of Zyra supports. We examine the stats of its quite obvious that Zyra's job is to do damage. In fact since Zyra support is capable easily to out damage the mid laner, purchasing an item that provides neither damage not opportunity to deal damage is a waste, on her.

Actually, it really is a waste on her, considering she can out-damage the typical mid lane by a LOT if she is on equal farm.

Whereas a lane champion like Aurelian Sol can easily start off by rushing a Banshee's veil or some other tank item and focus on map control using a sight stone.

The specific function and responsibilities you have in game should be determined by the circumstances of the specific game, not just by what button you clicked when you queued. I understand you want your role to be "to jump on an ADC and kill him" - that is a fun responsibility whereas "to take a detour into the enemy blue and drop a ward on it" is less so, but the sight stone should be purchased by the champion most suitable for using it and least hindered from purchasing it.

I am really not certain that in today's meta that champion is always the support. If it is not, the play style that puts that burden on other players should be open for exploration, not shut down by "I dont want to get it and the support is not getting it, RIOT please fix this piece of shit support player with a ban hammer and also get the economy of the roles proper so that the zyra is incentivized to be the one getting it".

If you are a jungle, you are forced to take smite and forced to purchase a jungle item.

yes but you should learn your history before you talk about machete. Also, it upgrades into a ward item so why are all the junglers getting challenging smite?

The jungle item is designed to do two things: to keep jungler's PVP power low at the super early game (the jungle used to provide more XP and gold in the really early game, leading to junglers entering your lane in levels 2-3 and just 1v1ing you, and also at level 6 doing the same with some cheapo items), and to keep laners from poaching (junglers after level 9 would find most of their jungle taken by their team and would fall off really hard because of that).

Without machete we have two problems in the jungle: Lee-sin and similar junglers just fuck the lanes up early game with very little counterplay due to level / item advantage (and the fact that they have good early game), and carry type jungler being non-viable due to problem with getting items on time past 1 and a half items (because your mid takes your chickens, your bot takes your krugs and your top helps himself to the wolves and gromp) .

The whole "forced into smite" thing - its just something that accompanies the machete thing. Junglers actually need that "meta coercion" to keep the role from overlapping with the "non farming" role too much. Otherwise laners will actually get machete and start poaching.

When I play Diana, my job is to either provide sustained damage or to nuke squishies

I disagree. As a mid lane, your job is to provide control over the center of the map and give your jungler a fist to shove up the other team's behind. Whether this is best done with damage items, tank items or a sight-stone is up for debate.

So let me get back to the point of the post. Riot told this guy that supports should always be buying one of the sightstone variants and people absolutely flipped.

People flipped because of people like you not because riot said anything about sight stone. People don't like coercion from team mates and fellow players. When they hear that people like you have a problem understanding simple texts from riot and are going to go on with your attempts at securing riot's support in play-style coercion, they get mad at you guys.

because you are out of line.

who can speak about their experience with "must-buy" items in certain roles?

Lets say I am playing Support Trundle. Or you are playing Support Diana. What is the justification for having the sight stone on us? From a champion power fantasy aspect, there is no justification.

If we say our champions are supposed to kill shit, regardless of role, than to do our jobs as players of those champions we should be buying items that have good synergy with our champion's core identity. As trundle I want the most tankyness item 3143 and the most AA damage item 3748 - not some half baked not that tanky item that sets me with my limited income behind. Same with your support Diana.

This leaves "role" as the only justification for getting the sight stone on the support. The argument that "the support is the one expected to do it" is not good - because we want to win and to do the best thing for winning not the best thing for our team's happiness and satisfaction.

Therefore maybe sight stone is better on another champion? is it possible? if you can't prove that it is always in all cases better on the support, than the option of not getting it should be open for the support player to take.

and yes, if the support decides to go full damage and not ward, it maybe means the job of warding is Diana's.

BLACK REALM GOD11/18/2016, 8:10:39 PM2 votes

actually riot went back and said that it wasnt necessarily because he didnt buy the sightstone and stuff but because his team had asked him to play a certain way and he refused to give in at all over hundreds if not thousands of games.

you dont have to play in a cookie cutter mold.

basically the overall outcome of this situation is that the singed player wasnt doing anything wrong with the way he played or the way he built, but because of the sheer amount of toxic players in this game he was being forced into making the decision to either submit to the demands of his team or play his own way. and because he was audited by someone who was bias he got suspended. the argument was made that he was ruining the experience for his teammates by forcing them to do something they didnt want to do and the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

long and short of it is - if you want to play outside of the meta then you'll need to bring some friends along that will stick up for you and help you to report the people that harass you for your choices. if you do that then you'll be fine.

Adrian Blackbear11/20/2016, 6:23:56 PM2 votes

Yes. Hands down. As a support main it is my job to protect my carry and one of the ways I do that is by providing vision to avoid any surprises.

ChaosReignsDown11/18/2016, 7:39:55 PM1 votes

Just combine the SS item with this +gold items! item 3069 + item 2302 (adjusting stats of course).. make the item worth getting. That being said I main support and always buy sightstone... warding is part of your job as support.. do you really want your ADC wasting gold on SS and delaying a key item? ..

redniwediS11/18/2016, 5:16:03 PM1 votes

The main problem is the word "require". If you are required to buy sightstone the next question is when you are required to have it by, because it is no longer up to you whether or not you get it.

Junglers can put off their item for as long as they see fit. Mid and top laners can build whatever it is they feel is best for the given situation. ADCs just kind of do whatever ADCs do. Supports, however, are forced to buy sightstone as early as possible.

It's not that sightstone is bad for supports, it's the thought of it being something you HAVE to get. Should the situation arise where a different item would be better you should be allowed to get that, which can put off your purchase of sightstone. This situation needs to be allowed.

Isaacorion11/18/2016, 8:32:20 PM1 votes

As a Support player, I don't mind being told "buy a sightstone and ward". It's one of the reasons I enjoy playing Support honestly is the ability to light up the map and see where is safe or not. My issue is when it boils down to only the support warding. If there are 3 Stealth wards and 1 Control on the map, don't whine about lack of vision, cause those wards are likely mine, and no one else has contributed.

Teridax6811/19/2016, 12:25:57 AM1 votes

The thing is, Lich Bane/Nashor's Tooth for Diana at the very least has a bit more variety, and either item a "must-buy" because it fits her kit. Smite on junglers is mandatory and not necessarily related to their kit, but it is helpful in that it unlocks items specifically for them. On top of that, Smite is direct power, and the control it provides over contested jungle objectives can feel really fun. By contrast, Sightstone offers nothing that directly benefits the support, it's just something they pick because that's what their team expects them to pick. On top of that, its unique effect is now near-identical to that of a trinket, i.e. a free item everyone can equip that does not take up an inventory slot over other "real" items. Wards generally have a hard time conveying how powerful they are, but it also doesn't feel great to give up an item slot and precious early gold for an effect everyone can get for free.

Because of that, I also think the poll question is poorly phrased: as long as Sightstone exists in the game, supports will be required to pick it, because the moment one champion can itemize for vision more than the other, the burden automatically falls upon the support to equip that item and become the team's ward mule. It is also what forces supports back so hard on both gold and experience, because they're expected to spend more time than anyone else to ward and counter-ward alone, despite supports being the least independent class in the game.

Because of this, I think the game, and supports especially, would be better off if Sightstone were removed. Wards are no longer purchaseable, so it would be impossible to force them to buy more vision than anyone else, which means nobody would have any excuse to ward less than anyone else. If teams end up with too little vision, one possible solution would just be to buff trinkets to match up to that loss.

LXII11/18/2016, 5:39:04 PM1 votes

If you're playing Zyra, the enemy team invades, and you somehow pentakill them then you buy whatever you want with that money. Build damage and carry. But if that's not the case I fully believe the sightstone is the right way to go.

"Required" is a slippery slope, but I definitely think it needs to be purchased way more often than not.

DarkRitual11/18/2016, 5:46:37 PM1 votes

A rioter posted in one of the threads confirming sightstone is not required, and not bannable for not purchasing. That basically invalidates this entire thread.

ZT Xperimentor11/19/2016, 2:20:29 AM1 votes

Probably because the sightstone feels like a wasted opportunity cost. Smite still does a huge chunk of true damage to any neutral monster or minion, lichbane & nashor's tooth still have significant stats that make them worth while; each of which have value scaling through out the game. What does sightstone have? A bonus of 150 hit points, that's all it has when the wards are used; but that's entirely unimpressive & ineffective, given the excessive damage creep over the past couple years.