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Ashe skill changes.

eatasaur··8 votes·1,592 views

I am a Adc player and has a lot of experience with all sorts of ad carries. I first main-ed Ashe, then i thought she was a great champion. I just thought that her E ( Hawkshot ) was not well as other adc's. Simply put, she is well balanced towards his mid-game with her ultimate, but utterly, without that 60-90 second cooldown, she is quite vulnerable. I am not asking for a dash or some sort, but maybe a attack speed steroid or maybe something that empowers her shots, Anything creative other than her +3 gold per minion will be nice. 100 minions = barely 300 gold. 300 gold can't even get you a pair of Nikes (boots).Ashe

35 Comments

Direwolfiez9 votes

She needs a full rework. Her passive is dated and almost useless until you have a decent crit chance (even then it's gimmicky and not very useful), and she's completely invalidated by anyone with a gapcloser or dash of some kind, in the sense that they wreck her and also prevent her from perma-slowing them, which is what she specializes in, and LoL is still League of Gapclosers, so...Ashe is weak as hell.

Eawaf3 votes

Ashe works as intended. She is a marksman/utility/support character. You don't pick your champ in a vacuum. When you pick ashe for a team comp you realize your giving up hyper-carry damage in the adc slot for added utility. Her entire kit is geared toward it. Her Q is a perma slow? What other adc in the game has this ability. Her W is a wave clear +damage ability on a really low cool down. Her E gives you vision half a map away +gold on monster kill. And her R lol. Burst damage/global range +stun?? Super powerful when put into the adc slot.

However, most people don't realize when you pick ashe you must build a teamcomp that shores up some of the damage she loses because of her utility. She doesn't do as much ad damage as a hyper-carry? Well keep that in mind when you pick your top lane or jungle.

She is not a "put all your eggs in one basket" champion. Spread the damage around the team.

Example being, why would u ever take Mundo when ashe is adc. Mundo offers nothing to the fight damage wise. His tanking in the frontline hurts the team because he doesn't do any damage ; /.

A much better pick for the top when ashe is adc would be Darius. He can build tanky and STILL do major damage. Add on the fact that darius doesn't chase very well gives awesome synergy to ashe's Q.

BADxW0LF2 votes

Her W is not really a wave clear compared to any other champ's. Each arrow is stopped by the first minion it hits. I mean...I guess if you hit the wave from the side, it COULD be considered a wave clear, but it's nothing compared to any other champ's wave clear (comparing to champs who have a wave clear). That's the only thing I have to harp on your comment about. Everything else is spot on.

Auz the Ripper3 votes

Imma have to disagree

Mundo has one of the, if not THE highest single target damage of any tank in the game Between cleaver's 25% current and masochism's 100+ AD, he can kill most other champions pretty easy.

It's the only reason he cannot be simply ignored in a teamfight

Drakexionyx1 votes

All this is true, and you have correctly identified her role in the game. However, as the Original Posted noted, it is her skills that don't match this role particularly well, most notably her passive and E passive. She is a utility champion, so why does she have a pseudo damage modifier with her passive (not unlike Caitlyn's 'Headshot' passive) that only scales with crit? Many people have come up wiht way better ideas for her passive than it is currently on live, and certainly better than anything I can think up on the spot here. Why does her E passive give her increased gold income to itemize as if she was a hyper carry, when she: a) can never max that skill because she needs to max her utility b) doesn't need to rush damage items anyway because she is utility based, and doesn't scale, (in the sense of raw damage, as you noted) and so doesn't have a particular 'power spike' she needs this passive to reach and be relevant (in my mind a better e passive would be something like increasing attack speed on a target she has slowed - kind of like the way jinx's Q works - which would be a skill that would then have more relevance as one she is maxing in the late game, while also not over powering her damage).

Ideally I like Ashe as the utility-centric ADC, that can really bring a high damage team together. I was rather fond of the Ashe blue build (back when it was still viable before the IE and Triforce changes) and even now in spite of it's less effectiveness I still like to build BOTRK, Muramana, Frozen mallet, and sometimes even an Iceborn Gauntlet just because of how well the supplement her utility. I just wish that her skills (Passive and E respectively) better suited/reinforced her meaningful style of game-play.

Doogmi2 votes

Agreed, I don't think her utility justifies her lack of overall damage output. No way shape or form am I saying Ashe isn't viable, I'd like to see some bonus damage added to give her incentive to apply her slows. Not just play safe till six then all in and hope we can kill Lucian. Maybe something like "winters wrath" passive Ashe deals bonus damage to targets that are slowed or stunned. This could be per auto, scaling per level, flat percentage. This would be cool because Ashe would be more inclined to use her q and deal bonus damage for trades, and also helping her eliminate targets hit by her ult. Her passive would be meaningful and give added incentive to her q

FantasySniper2 votes

Ashe's kit will never be balanced at this rate, especially with mobility creep.

It's too powerful to let it be viable.

Remlap12232 votes

That was the orignial problem, but now that every champion that was released after her has a dash, her kit is useless. Oh cool she's got a perma slow, but Vi has a huge gap closer and can double back into a wall in case things get too antsy. You can make her a viable choice without making her OP. It's not hard, just give her Ult a lesser cooldown (I mean, Jinx's ult is an execute and it has half the cooldown Ashe's does, while being a helluva lot faster.) Allow her Volley to proc on hit effects and crit, maybe make her permaslow passive, gut the slow %, and then have her active have the slow stack or something.

FantasySniper2 votes

Her utility is what makes her kit powerful.

Reducing the CD on her [R] makes her too powerful, it's already a good chunk of her power budget with the CC+damage in an AoE. Jinx's ult is pure damage that requires full range to completely access, and is less useful in teamfights.

Making her Volley proc crit is what they should have done in the first place, but it already gives her ample poke and its damage would have to be reduced slightly to compensate.

As she is, you can't buff anything in her kit without removing power elsewhere, so I agree with gutting her slow, but that risks damaging her identity.

Remlap12231 votes

How would gutting her slow and giving it an on hit effect be damaging to he identity? It would reinforce it if anything cuz it would stick to her as "the utility slowing ADC". As for her volley, whatever! It's just cheese at this point much like her passive, so if you gut the base values and give it crit, it will make Ashe actually carry. The counterplay to the low CDR ult is the fact that it's slow, requires huge team input for it to work properly, and doesn't do a huge amount of damage to compensate for its awesome utility. That's what crucible is for, and instead of making crucible suck ass, make Ashe good instead.

FantasySniper1 votes

Her identity is the "Kiting Queen". Her powerful perma-slow is the single largest part of that identity. There is a backburner idea I have, where making her [E] apply the slow is probably the only way to make up losing some magnitude.

It's not about counterplay to her [R], if it's too powerful without the presence of counters, it's unhealthy.

The Fat Punisher1 votes

She needs a steroid for sure. Her Passive should charge during combat not out.

and either boost the gold to 4. or get no gold and a movespeed boost instead for using it.

MPendragon1 votes

She's a supportive ADC. I'd honestly just play her as an AD Support if you're going to play her at all. Her kit does not fit any other role in the game at this point.

Killer X 122 votes

She's a supportive ADC. I'd honestly just play her as an AD Support if you're going to play her at all. Her kit does not fit any other role in the game at this point.

She doesn't have any problem going through the laning phase because of her early game damage (that can hit both people), and even when behind in farm (which she shouldn't be since she has 600 range) she can still be even or ahead in gold because of her E. You shouldn't be killing other ADCs 1v1, but you have the ability to both help out other lanes and engage for team fights when the comp calls for it.

She is just fine in the hands of anyone that hasn't fallen into the "OMG LETS FIGHT IN LANE RIGHT NOW" attitude that champs like Lucian have brought to the bot lane. Put her against somone who is weak early like twitch, trist or vayne and she'll have a strong mid game where her utility outshines her damage.

That being said, i'm still gonna play Cait instead lol.

MPendragon1 votes

You shouldn't be killing other ADCs 1v1, but you have the ability to both help out other lanes and engage for team fights when the comp calls for it.

Mere definition of the Support role.

Killer X 122 votes

You shouldn't be killing other ADCs 1v1, but you have the ability to both help out other lanes and engage for team fights when the comp calls for it.

Mere definition of the Support role.

Lol, no. Some supports can totally kill an adc 1v1. When you are late game and you build a support ap you can 1v1 all but the hyper carries. If you don't kill them they'll be very low, unless...

Obv taken the wrong way tho. Clearly ashe can 1v1 other adcs, but early game without ults if the gold and items are even she'll prolly lose. There are mid laners that always lose pre 6, there are top laners that always lose pre 6. That doesn't mean they should be supports. Regardless post 6, with her ult she can kill ADCs like lucian and even hyper carries before they get too hyper. The stun is just that, a stun.

I don't think whether they can 1v1 another adc should be whether or not they are a support. If ADCs were picked on that then Quinn would be the number 1 adc. A blind? In a fight that is only gonna last 5 auto attacks anyway? lol. GG

Drakexionyx1 votes

He's not saying she is a support dude, just supportive. In that she can't carry a fight herself reliably, she needs other people to follow up on her CC and utility. She's great for getting picks, but if you haven't got a lot of damage across your mid laner, top and jungle (even support in today's meta) then you will lose out in a team fight to the likes of Twitch, Tristana, Lucian, Corki ... any other ADC really that isn't MF or Varus, although the latter two will probably still out burst you in a 1 v 1, ult or no ult.

Calling her supportive is an pt description of her role in the game, not a statement that she isn't viable (unlike Varus or MF however, who aren't viable at all really =C ).

Kuronii Lumiira1 votes

I still think her Q active should slow affected units' attack speed by a small margin. Just enough to give her an edge, but not enough to the point where it's oppressive.

Remlap12231 votes

Honestly, if Ashe got a passive that wasn't complete rubbish, and they buffed her damage values, reduced the cooldown of her Ult to Lucian ult levels pre 4.19 and gave it AD scaling, and allowed Volley to proc on hit effects and crit, Ashe would be fine.

Auz the Ripper2 votes

Those changes would make her the most OP ADC to ever be released I mean, not release Xin level OP, but only one or two steps below

Remlap12231 votes

So... what you're saying is Ashe should stay bad, because making her viable would make her OP? And I seriously doubt that she'd be OP considering the fact that she's gank bait. If Ashe overextends even half the amount that an ADC like Caitlyn or Lucian do, she'll get melted instantly while Cait and Lucian dash away. Also Jinx's ultimate scales like this and I haven't seen Jinx players since her release date, disregarding the free weekers.

Auz the Ripper2 votes

She isn't bad, she's subpar She has a consistent 10% pick rate and hasn't dropped below 50% winrate in the last month. That isn't bad

In reference to jinx: Jinx's ult is an execute, ashe's ult is an initiation. They have entirely different purposes.

Remlap12231 votes

Galio's at a 51% winrate right now, therefore Galio isn't bad, he's subpar.

Do you know why win rate is a crap way to measure champion health? Because one a champ goes so far down in the dumps (Gangplank Urgot old Sion), it gets artificially inflated because only mains play them. You need to look at the relative win rate between pick and ban rates.

Also in reference to Jinx: why would an ultimate that is an initiation be on a higher cooldown than one that functions as a guarenteed execute 9/10 times? Why can't Ashe's passive be like that so people can stop whining about Mikail's Crucible when in reality Ashe doesn't have enough utility to fill her niche as the utility ADC. But no, it's all about power and mobility creep, despite the fact that its common knowledge that Ashe's passive is crap, her volley is underpowered, and her ult STILL doesn't scale with AD.

Auz the Ripper2 votes

Galio isn't bad, he is simply subpar. I play him quite often. And you seem to have skimped over the part where I said she has a consistent pick rate of at least 10%, although the the average* is* closer to 15%. The skimping seems weird to me because it was the first statistic I mentioned, but I'm sure you have some sort of vision impairment, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Back to the point, since I doubt 10% or even 5% of people main her, her pick rate would highly suggest that the winrate is not artificially inflated

Remlap12231 votes

Hardly. If Ashe really wasn't played by her mains or simply people that kick ass with her, her win rate would be either a flat 50% or lower. I can vouch for that not being the case, simply because every Ashe I've faced past level 30 have completely pounded my butthole in, or at least have been a huge challenge to face. It's why I cringed everytime old Sion was played, cuz I knew he was going to wreck my shit. Same goes for Galio players and Shaco players. Because the champions are in such a lackluster state, only their mains play them (why Gangplank has a 50% win rate despite being universally panned as a shit champion ATM, and as a Gangplank main I can vouch for this.)

But since you obviously have a reading impairment, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you can't understand what the problem with a champion that sees no competative play, but has a 55% win rate.

Auz the Ripper1 votes

You keep ignoring her pick rate, She's picked more than At least half the roster

FantasySniper1 votes

Win rates are the first measure of power. It describes how well they perform over any and all circumstances, taking into account all playstyles attempted and skill levels in question. The more you have to optimize a champion's use, the more situational they are, and can lead to lower pick rates.

The lower the pick rate, the less reliable this number is simply because of a smaller sample group in comparison to the norm.

CoolSpot21 votes

Maybe:

Steady Aim . After applying frost on enemy ash does bonus physical damage on basic attack ? 10 per level ? 7 second cooldown on same target

I figured that may give her extra burst in teamfights and the longer she stays in them .

Kuroi861 votes

Ashe works quite fine for a high utility ADC. She just needs her passive adjusted.
Either let it continue to stack while in combat. Or let it grant bonus crit chance/AD/AS, take your pick of them.

Eawaf1 votes

@Auz the Ripper I just don't think Mundo can make make up for the sustained damage you would need to make up for ashe as adc. It's the differance between picking a 'tank' top and a 'bruiser' top. I think Darius's damage will be greater overall while not being as tanky. While mundo will be tankier overall but less damage. It's down to how their kit is built. Darius has Armor shred+bleed+true damage. Mundo only has a %current health Q and a ad steroid. 3 vs 2. i think darius wins in the damage category.

@BadxWolF Her W can absolutely wave clear. The Cd on it at max is very low. and hitting the wave from the side is very useful ;). And no its not much compared to other champs wave clear but it can't be because of the utility built into other parts of her kit.

Auz the Ripper1 votes

I'm not saying Mundo has Darius levels of straight damage, but I recall saying "of any tank in the game." Darius is a bruiser, not a tank. Even then, mundo is much stickier than Darius, between his free tenacity, permaslow, and sheer tank so realistically mundo would deal more damage in many scenarios. Now ashe might alleviate Darius's kiteablility, idk.

Also mundo has a built in sunfire cape that deals 95 damage per second, if we're talking about all the damage in their kit

Lastly, I apologize for being a fact nazi, but Darius has has armor pen not shred, 35 to be exact, which is nothing compared to masochism's maximum AD bonus of 200 (it gives 100 plus 1 for every 1% Hp mundo's missing)

AloneInTheCrowd1 votes

I am a Adc player and has a lot of experience with all sorts of ad carries. I first main-ed Ashe, then i thought she was a great champion. I just thought that her E ( Hawkshot ) was not well as other adc's. Simply put, she is well balanced towards his mid-game with her ultimate, but utterly, without that 60-90 second cooldown, she is quite vulnerable. I am not asking for a dash or some sort, but maybe a attack speed steroid or maybe something that empowers her shots, Anything creative other than her +3 gold per minion will be nice. 100 minions = barely 300 gold. 300 gold can't even get you a pair of Nikes (boots).Ashe

Full rework.

Drakexionyx1 votes

Be careful what you wish for. She might get given a new passive like 30% bonus AP after 500 stacks of killing slowed enemies...

Martyrofsand1 votes

There is 102 gold per minion wave, 129 in a siege minion wave. While this will vary some with the gold increase per 3 minute let's put this in context. IE costs 3800 gold to buy which equates to roughly 37 minute waves, will vary because of the gold increase per minute and siege minions, but it's roughly 222 minions. Add 3 gold to each of those kills, IE 18 gold per minion wave and Ashe will get her infinity Edge by the 31 minion wave, 6 waves ahead of her opponent.

Now naturally this is extremely rough match with a lot of things not accounted for, but it shows just how much that additional gold can accelerate Ashe over her opponents. No it's not some amazing or crazy phenomenal value but it can give Ashe a power spike before her opponents and devaluing that is rather foolish. Not saying it's the best just pointing out that it is not as irrelevant as people want to believe.

Eawaf1 votes

When i go to the champions list on the league of legends website. When i click on the role Support. And ONLY support. Ashe shows up on the list. So in regards to why her passive is the way it is. . . it's because of that support tag. Sure it sucks when your adc'ing but it gives you an extra punch when your supporting.

I main Support ashe. I've played more then 200 games with her using a variation of the old blue build. She can be very effective in her role as support. And because she has that tag as well as the marksman tag.. i don't think were going to get much wiggle room when it comes to changing some of her abilities.

I would agree with tweaking the passive to allow it to increase while in combat. i would also listen to a change to her E gold passive. But it has to be just slight tweaking. In my opinion the balance is pretty much perfect right where she is.

And please. Leave her Q alone. The entire identity of the champion is built around that Q. No other champion in the game comes out the box with it. No other marksman has CC that comes close to what that Q does. You might as well get rid of the champ and invent a new one if your going to change it.

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