[Discussion] Maybe the problem isn't Jinx, food for thought:

ScreamPaste·Apr 21, 2015·41 votes·2,888 views

So I don't think the problem is with Jinx herself. She's recently become stronger in soloQ and a lot of people have been complaining. Let's consider why.

My thoughts on the matter are simple; it's not Jinx herself that is inherently too strong, it's the tank meta. The tank meta allows Jinx to surround herself with unkillable, hard peeling tanks, so that she can do Jinx things at your team. This covers her greatest and most exploitable weakness: squishy immobility with no reliable self peel whatsoever.

It doesn't matter, though, when she is surrounded by Nautilus, Sejuani, Hec, and Maokai. You simply can't get to her, and you can't kill the rest of her team. That, imho, is why Jinx is strong right now, I do not believe she is that strong inherently. Food for thought.

Opinions?

51 Comments

Sir YamazukiApr 21, 201535 votes

Nope, she had high pick rate and win rate before tank changes and cinder came out, so it has nothing to do with tanks. She has had those stats for a long time.

DurzakaApr 22, 20151 votes

Bingo.

Jinx was a very strong pick long before the Cinderhulk changes and the abundance of tanks being played.

FantasySniperApr 21, 201515 votes

{quoted}

She's recently become stronger in soloQ

recently become stronger

recently

Nope. She's always been strong, tbh.

If anything about what you said were true, Varus and Kog'Maw would be having a field day.

EvilRabbittApr 22, 20152 votes

Vayne is trigge happy right now.

HeWolfApr 22, 20153 votes

If you're saying that Vayne, Kog'Maw, Varus, or any other ADC are at the same place as Jinx, I don't think that you can see beyond your games.

The problem with Jinx IMO is this:

Her early game is very good: she has a great base damage, AS steroid, higher range than most other carries. In most case she is a lane bully. On top of that, she has some CC; not the most reliable one but still redundant. Sure you can camp her but this season junglers have been nerfed (current Cinderhulk will be nerfed) and we all know what happens when you gank a Jinx when you are half-health. SMDRocket to your *ss.
As a low-mobility champion, you may think that mid-game rotations will impact her because she can't destroy towers fast enough OHWAIT. Also, her passive makes her range even more OP because if someone dies in a midgame teamfight, it's very likely she got an assist for that. There's your mobility.
Late game Jinx. I don't think that I need to say more.

Hypercarries MUST have weak lanephase as a trade-off. Only a full dedicated team (Maokai, Vi, Zed, Graves, Leona) has an easy time against her. Honestly I don't think that low mobility is enough of a weakness to her.

FantasySniperApr 23, 20151 votes

Jinx is strong at all points of the game, even when behind. +1

ScreamPasteApr 21, 201511 votes

Why am I being downvoted for trying to have a discussion? Lol.

SaixosApr 21, 201515 votes

People prefer to vote based on opinions and ideas rather than discussions. It's just another reason why I dislike the boards as a concept, you get this hive mind and anyone who disagrees or posts something contrary can get downvoted very quickly, and 2-3 downvotes is all that is needed to kill a post :c

MEMEME670Apr 22, 20151 votes

And what other options are there for a community hub?

Aych PiiApr 22, 20151 votes

The forums we used to have.

AMYS GRAVEApr 21, 20151 votes

well, i upvoted for good discussion :)

Sire HippingtonApr 21, 20152 votes

thats the pronlem of the format, you post your own opinion while starting a discussion. the problem is, even if people do like the discussion, if they don't like you opinion they downvote the whole threat. I think there should be a different voting for the entire threat(the discussion itself) and the original post(you opinion)

MagnatharApr 21, 20151 votes

here have an upvote :)

KougaApr 21, 20154 votes

The same reason that Kog is seeing high tier play and has been banned - the dip in burst damage presence from the lowered tanks lets immobile or unsafe, high-damage carries survive long enough to deal their damage without being instagibbed.

BemaponApr 21, 20153 votes

I had the same problem vs a Cait. Nobody could get close to her. Personally I don't even see Jinx played all the often, and when I do its nothing special.

ScreamPasteApr 21, 20152 votes

Yeah, this seems to be the big deal, imho. With the end of assassin meta, and her team between herself and you, any high DPS ADC will be terrifying, Jinx just benefits the most because her power budget is all spent on damage with no escape.

salćeApr 21, 20153 votes

I main Jinx, and honestly I think she is top tier right now. Everyone complain about her lack of escape, but she has so much more that she can depend on. He has high DPS and has a lot of poke. Usually with one item I'm able to come back into lane and put down a crazy amount of damage. Also, if I have a Support who knows how to combo with my chompers, I am able to most likely get a kill. On top of that she has crazy range with her rockets, and shes an ADC with a built in slow and stun (chompers), if used correctly, she can kill you before the slow even wares off.

Sire HippingtonApr 21, 20153 votes

It's more a problem of jinx. Befor the 'tank meta', there were other ways to peel like a lulu mid, mao top and janna support. you always had ways to keep an carry save if you want, and her win+pickrate was incredible high long befor cinderhulk came.

The porblem of jinx simply is that she's insanly unforgiving once a fight goes her way. That passive combined with the high range combined with a powerfull global finisher, waveclear and poke, combined with probably the highest dps vs objectives(atleast structures) allows her to turn nearly any won teamfight into a massacer followed by multiple objektives. And for the defastatuon-potential, her laneing simply is to potent.

Earl EulrichApr 21, 20153 votes

it´s not recently, it´s pretty much since she got released. She´s just a snowbally Champ in lane and in Teamfights...especially since her dmg is even more RNG-based than on other carries. If IE rushing jinx gets lucky in an early teamfight only 1 AoE-Crit can just snowball the whole game out of hand without involving much gameplay other than rightclicking and being in 700range of Jinx. So yea, it´s not entirly on Jinx herself, but she still has a too good laningphase considering her lategame-potential, the passive is too strong in success-cases and (AoE-)Crits just need to change.

thinking manApr 21, 20153 votes

It must've been the assassin meta as well since she had this winrate during that meta too.

BudupopsApr 22, 20153 votes

has had 55% win rate for 2 years now, Jinx main detected

ScreamPasteApr 22, 20156 votes

I main Shaco , the complaints have become much more frequent since the tank meta hit.

Alarmist detected.

Only Play DariusApr 23, 20153 votes

I believe the problem is that the other late game, long range, high attack speed ADC ( Tristana ) got her winrate destroyed.

My theory is that many Tristana players also play Jinx because of their similarities. Now that Tristana is where she is now, all the Tristana players have moved to Jinx exclusively (including me).

Drunk RummateApr 23, 20153 votes

Jinx hate is just flavor of the month. It's an endless cycle on these forums. I'm genuinely surprised we aren't see complains about Luden's Echo Kog Maw yet, but those will be coming next I'm sure.

SaixosApr 21, 20152 votes

I do have a problem with Jinx, I find her to be the AD carry which I find most frustrating to play against.

Jinx is without a doubt a hypercarry. Any ADC who can deal AOE damage from 700 range on autoattacks is definitely a hypercarry, not to mention her attack speed buff in minigun is better than tristana's q, and while it has a warmup that warmup decreases with attack speed and it doesn't have an overall cooldown.

The other ADCs I regard as hypercarries are Vayne, Kog'maw, and Tristana.

Comparing Jinx to those 3, the main point which bothers me is that Jinx has a comparatively strong early game. All 3 of those hypercarrys are quite vulnerable in the early game, yet Jinx far less so. And she snowballs incredibly hard. That's something I really don't like.

Most ADCs have a nice pattern of when they're usually strong and weak. Vayne starts very weak and ends up scaling upwards very harshly, yet at the very end can have a bit of a downwards curve due to her range. Caitlyn is strong early and late, yet is very weak in the mid game. Ezreal starts medium-weak and then gets incredibly strong mid game going down to slightly above average ADC level late game.

Jinx doesn't follow that pattern. She's mediocre in the early game, strong in the mid game, and then very strong in the late game. She never really has a weak point compared to some of the other ADCs, she just continuously gets stronger and stronger while having an already decent starting point.

ArcheanthusApr 22, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Saixos Yewark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JAUYr5Vr,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-04-21T21:20:05.801+0000)

I do have a problem with Jinx, I find her to be the AD carry which I find most frustrating to play against.

Jinx is without a doubt a hypercarry. Any ADC who can deal AOE damage from 700 range on autoattacks is definitely a hypercarry, not to mention her attack speed buff in minigun is better than tristana's q, and while it has a warmup that warmup decreases with attack speed and it doesn't have an overall cooldown.

The other ADCs I regard as hypercarries are Vayne, Kog'maw, and Tristana.

Comparing Jinx to those 3, the main point which bothers me is that Jinx has a comparatively strong early game. All 3 of those hypercarrys are quite vulnerable in the early game, yet Jinx far less so. And she snowballs incredibly hard. That's something I really don't like.

Most ADCs have a nice pattern of when they're usually strong and weak. Vayne starts very weak and ends up scaling upwards very harshly, yet at the very end can have a bit of a downwards curve due to her range. Caitlyn is strong early and late, yet is very weak in the mid game. Ezreal starts medium-weak and then gets incredibly strong mid game going down to slightly above average ADC level late game.

Jinx doesn't follow that pattern. She's mediocre in the early game, strong in the mid game, and then very strong in the late game. She never really has a weak point compared to some of the other ADCs, she just continuously gets stronger and stronger while having an already decent starting point.

You just said she's comparatively strong early game, then you said she's mediocre early game, and then said she doesn't have a weak point. Firstly, you just contradicted yourself (a couple times). Secondly, you made several false statements: "Jinx is 'far less' vulnerable early game than Tristana, Kog, and Vayne." Third, I heartily disagree that she's "mediocre" early game. She's like pretty much any champion: if you're good enough with them they can be strong at any and all points of the game.

I do agree with you that she is a hypercarry though, and can snowball super hard. ;) Plenty of other champs snowball hard though too.

mvargusApr 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You just said she's comparatively strong early game, then you said she's mediocre early game, and then said she doesn't have a weak point. Firstly, you just contradicted yourself (a couple times). Secondly, you made several false statements: "Jinx is 'far less' vulnerable early game than Tristana, Kog, and Vayne." Third, I heartily disagree that she's "mediocre" early game. She's like pretty much any champion: if you're good enough with them they can be strong at any and all points of the game.

I do agree with you that she is a hypercarry though, and can snowball super hard. ;) Plenty of other champs snowball hard though too.

compared to many other ADCs, Jinx has a terrible early game. The problem that occurs however is something that Gypsylord noted in another discussion about the nerfs. He said that the average Jinx "main" gets at least 31 games on her compared to an average of 16 or so for most other ADC mains. This means that your average Jinx player in Solo Queue is going to be far more experienced on the champ than their opponent and they can compensate for just how bad her early game is.

It's also why so many people keep trying to claim that Jinx is "far less vulnerable" than Tristana or Vayne early game even though those two hypercarries have abilities that provide escapes.

The funny thing is that I play a lot of support or jungle right now as I prepare for ranked play and I've found that Jinx players are very "feast or famine" The good ones tend to be able to slowly assume dominance over the lane unless the jungler is willing to come by and provide a couple of ganks. The bad ones can be pretty much erased from the game before level 6 and as long as the other team doesn't allow the game to extend too long, Jinx never comes back from that.

ErockandrollApr 21, 20152 votes

I feel like these nerfs are targeted towards the LCS. A lot of Jinx plays in the LCS would just throw their rockets out for the blanket damage.

Boards will still complain about Jinx because her core scaling is unchanged.

ChaoticPineconeApr 22, 20152 votes

no, the problem isnt the tank meta. sure, its a factor, but the problem is jinx herself. She can choose between a massive attack speed boost or super long range AOE autoattacks. she has self peel with her chompers. she has a nuke-ish slow. she has a execution ult. and she has a ridiculous movespeed passive once one person goes down.

think of the other hypercarries. Kogmaw - solid attack speed boost, but not massive. more single target damage and range for 8 seconds, but less for the next 9. has a slow that does no damage when you build ADC, but is AOE. ult does little damage when built ADC. one of the few super-immoble (no blink, dash, or movespeed buff) champions in the game with 0 hard CC - the others being nasus and olaf. MF is a weird case with her movespeed buff.

vayne - has great self peel and chasing power, but is short ranged. more damage in extended fights to tanks (depending). huge damage buff on ult, but her true damage is tied to attack speed.

tristana - needs items (now more than ever) to be relevent. Lower damage output most game. Tied for best self CC of any ADC (the other being Ashe).

Caitlyn - only a hypercarry when you have 6 items, including a double phantom dancer. and even then, you do less damage than any of the other hypercarries with the same build.

in other words, she is safer than the other hypercarries without having the most glaring of drawbacks, mainly being Range and Mobility. She also sclaes pretty well all game - she doesnt have a super weak early game or weak mid to be a lategame monster.

MinrogApr 22, 20151 votes

Jinx is not safer than Vayne/Tristana/Caitlynn. Kog'maw, yeah he's a sitting duck if he gets jumped, but the other three you listed have dashes and CC's. Tristana is like top 5 hardest character to catch in the game (Nidalee-Leblanc-Zed-Lee Sin-Tristana).

ChaoticPineconeApr 22, 20151 votes

you have to take the whole kit into account. most ADC hypercarries are defined by their range - to a lesser extend their AD/AS buffs or % max health damage.

vs Tristana jinx is not as safe as Trist, but also outputs a whole lot more damage than Trist all game. the only thing that makes Tristana a hypercarry is her range lategame plus her self-peel.

vs Caitlyn might be safer than jinx in some situations but gets outdamaged by jinx all game.

vs. Vayne She is safer than vayne for the same reason that caitlyn is safer than vayne - massive range. Vayne is also gimped by being one of the few champions with only single target abilities (poppy is the only other if we say that Warwick's reveal can affect multiple people).

im just saying that Jinx seems to have all the benefits of a hypercarry many of the the drawbacks. She has the range. She is strong all game. She has the steroid, either as an AOE or AS. She has some peel. And she executes people with her ult (and as a bonus, it triggers the passive). its a bit much for one of the best scaling ADCs in the game.

MinrogApr 23, 20151 votes

I'm with you on her being too powerful atm. Her safety is better depending on the circumstances, but I don't think that's the best way to handle her nerf.

Like, Vayne is meant to be a 1v1 duelist and I think she's the best AD carry for it. As you say she can't AOE but if you send someone to fight her they have to be super fed and even then she only has to die if she miscalculates. In a team fight/siege her 550 range and no skillshots hurts a lot and she has to play less safely to contribute.

Caitlynn and Jinx are built off of the same basic chasis. Right now Jinx has better bonuses on her autos but Caitlynn is definitely safer. I'd still pick Jinx because the damage difference is not trivial, unless my mid laner was a beast and I want to be able to devote all my resources to them.

Tristana only outdamages Jinx vs towers, and only by a little bit. But as far as safety goes it's not a close contest.

I think the execute is being remove from Super Mega Death Rocket already, they might remove the AOE crit damage off of the rocket autos as well. I could see them take away the slow on Zap!, but I don't think it's significant because you don't land it except on people who are already CC'ed.

Get Excited doesn't help unless you can get a kill, it's not an escape mechanism. It is too strong imo, but as a chasing/clean up tool. I think it should have a timer on it where you can't proc more than every 10 seconds or something.

FewtasApr 22, 20152 votes

I have a couple of friends who play Jinx a lot, just because of how she works and I have to say its a mixture of the current meta and her inherent strength. People keep on trying to compare Jinx to other ADC's like Vayne and Kog'maw, but the problem with that is that Jinx is much more snowbally in lane, easily becoming a problem. Along with that, due to her high damage and attack speed, she doesn't have as much a problem with tanks, even though there is ADC's meant for killing tanks.

YOU BEEN WARNEDApr 22, 20152 votes

No, Jinx 's winrate and popularity started way back before item 3751 .

I came in this thread expecting you to say that the state of the ADC class is still overbearing.

I was disappointed.

ScreamPasteApr 22, 20151 votes

Considering that at the top of play, Graves overshadows Jinx, (or did last I checked, anyway) that may actually be true.

I never really looked at Jinx much until recently, when the complaints picked up more so than usual, so what her winrate was before I don't know, but people are angrier about it now than they were.

MinrogApr 22, 20152 votes

I think you're right OP, but not for Solo Queue. Last year Jinx had like a 45% win rate in the LCS, because every team had multiple assassins and she had no way to avoid being deleted instantly. You had to use Graves/Lucian/Corki if you wanted to survive the Kha'zix/LeBlanc or Lee Sin/Zed double teams.

I don't think this really applies to Solo Queue, where her win rate has been pretty steady. They are too disorganized to dive/protect the back line so it's not like she's getting peeled for in her matches.

Landing her Zap! skill requires that the enemy champion already be CC'ed, nobody is going to notice if they nerf that. Get Excited is underwhelming too, a janitor skill for chasing, so nerfs there won't do much to her. It's really down to her Chompers, her autos, and her ultimate. I just hope they don't Warwick her (I like her stylistically, I don't play her though).

Celeste BenalApr 22, 20152 votes

:nods:

The first champ I ever bought was Jinx. During the season 4 assassin meta, she was harder to play because of her lack of mobility/escapes compared to most assassins and ADCs with better projection and mobility. With more tanks (and thus CC) running around the Rift she has a better chance of staying alive long enough to have an impact on the game.

Some folks are talking about how she is OP because she can swap between AS-boosted pow-pow or LR fishbones. But remember she has given up a skill slot for that.

Her Get Excited passive is mostly underwhelming and very situational. Something has to die before it procs, and then its active for only a few seconds. Last I checked, an ADC doesn't generally want to suddenly run up to the front line if 1 of the 5 enemies has died. It does function as a nice escape when low after a fight, or as a way to enable a finish. But otherwise, her mobility is certainly no better than average, if even that.

Her ranges effect her dps. If you want the high-dps she has to get into much closer range. If you want the range, you lose dps. You also can't spam rockets early because her base mana pool is very small.

One thing I agree with is that she has the potential to snowball hard. But if its my pick and the opposing team has already picked Leona, Blitzcrank, Shaco, Graves, Vi, Zed, Leblanc, or Corki for example, I'm not inclined to pick Jinx. Especially Zed. He pretty much insta-gibs Jinx in every fight. And a single grab from blitz is guaranteed death.

Imo, Jinx is the least of our worries. Its just that the current tankier meta benefits late-game hyper carries. So she is seeing more use. However, her win rate is stable.

http://www.lolking.net/champions/jinx&region=all&map=sr&queue=1x1#statistics

Linna ExcelApr 21, 20151 votes

Okay, I think the tank meta might be a part of it, but more because her ult can finish off a pesky tank quickly. My question for you is why do you think she does better in a tank meta than other ADCs? You'd think Vayne would reign supreme because of her W or twitch/kog/cait because of their range and the ability to shred tanks at long range.

I'm thinking that Jinx's main strength is she's got 2 forms of self peel. Most other ADCs don't have that and need to hope their team can do the job. Sivir is doing as well and I think that's because she can E block the other team's CC in addition to pushing and having the R as an engage or as an escape.

AetherKingdomApr 21, 20151 votes

But it's easier to nerf jinx to an acceptable level than nerf all the champions that surround her

ScreamPasteApr 22, 20151 votes

And then when the meta shifts?

Jinx may be too strong, a lot of people in this thread feel that way, but for the sake of discussion what happens if you nerf a champion to suit a meta, when the game goes in cycles, and the meta shifts?

AetherKingdomApr 23, 20152 votes

Jinx has been strong through every meta since she was created, so I think she'll be fine with a nerf

Solidair3Apr 21, 20151 votes

That's part of it, but the other hyper carry adcs with a weakness of having weak self peel, (Vayne, Kog, etc) have not been having NEARLY the same success. So if you're trying to tell me that's a coincidence, I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree.

Additionally, I'm pretty sure she started her rise to prominence before the tank patch.

Curling VeigarApr 21, 20151 votes

She has had the same WR ever since she was released.

Please keep trying to defend your freelo.

ScreamPasteApr 22, 20154 votes

I don't even play ADC unless I'm forced to, and am on the losing side of more Jinxes than winning, lol.

The complaints about Jinx only started recently, and I'm just trying to figure out why that is. I main Shaco, Jinx being more common is better for me.

metaworldpeace10Apr 22, 20151 votes

Ya I agree with the majority of these posters here. Jinx' rise in popularity is a lie. She's had a win rate between 51-55% over the course of the past year. Her scaling is not smooth at all. She survives until level 6 and can all in at anytime. You can't even sit in lane with half hp against a jinx or else she will all in you and kill you. When you respawn and get to lane? She all ins you again because her ult is up again. Jinx needs nerfs, this is not news. The reason people think it's news is because she's been played in the LCS

NoMonkuApr 22, 20151 votes

I feel Jinx is on the stronger side, mainly because she is one of the only two long range lategame hyper carries left in the game that don't have crap early games (RIP Tristana Twitch ). The other one is Kog. Anyways, it is slightly true that she is stronger with the tank meta, but because of the tank meta, the ADC's that can dump on her aren't worth taking because they won't be able to kill the tanks late game, which causes the problem I feel. Yes, they might be able to dump on her in lane if they know what they are doing, but one mistake and she is ahead, basically resulting in you not being able to fight back and just resulting into a longer dragged out game, barring a misplay on her teams part.

Aych PiiApr 22, 20151 votes

By that logic MissFortune should be just as strong as Jinx in this meta, but I don't really think we'll be seeing much of her. Jinx actually has much more mobility and self-peel than MF, even.

SaiannaApr 23, 20151 votes

I'd say it isn't Jinx fault for being too strong, but other ADCs to be too weak (xcept cait, graves).

She's picked cause she can do things other ADCs can't. Like killing.

OnegarionApr 23, 20151 votes

Jinx is really strong because she takes objectives. Its really simple. She is the queen of objectives and thats how you win games. She scales extremely well into the late game. She can be hurt early and still come back off a couple kills.

The tank meta has made it even safer for jinx, but its not why she is really strong. In lane there are a few ways to beat her, but many of the champs aren't played as much. Leona has always been a strong counter to jinx because jinx isn't going anywhere when you get to her. If you have a burst champ she is as good as dead with the leo. The same idea applies to jinx in all hooks and hard CC. If Jinx gets locked down she isn't going anywhere being the immobile adc. You have a time/gold limit that you have to end the game by or Jinx will outscale you and if she doesn't die she will end you and the game.