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PotD: Karma feels too forced to use Mantra Q: proposed changes to allow her to be more adaptable

Maximum Nidaderp·8/4/2014, 3:12:42 PM·10 votes·5,324 views

Karma is currently not in a bad spot compared to other champions, that one is granted, but she has one drawback, she feels too obligated to use her mantra Q over any other mantra combination, because the burst is too high, while it also provides a handy slow.

I'd say that, currently, only an average of 1/20 mantras will be used in a different way other than Q, not because the situation doesn't favor them, but because they are not good enough regardless.

Obviously, the burst should remain as an alternative, it's way too straightforward and easy to deal with anyway, lowering the base or the ratios of it would just drop Karma to Lissandra levels.

Instead, what should be done is allow her W and E to be more dynamic, giving her a reason to sacrifice damage for utility should she require it.

The changes I propose are these:

Focused Resolve (W): Damage changed to 60/100/140/180/220(+65% AP) from 60/110/160/210/260(+60% AP)

Renewal: The cooldown of Focused Resolve resets, if Karma has a Focused Resolve already active, it also now slows for 20%

If Karma uses Renewal on a target already tethered with a Focused Resolve, the slow intensifies to 40%, the target also gets 300+(0.6% AP) magic damage upon root activation. The root duration is also increased to 2.5 seconds.

If Karma uses Renewal on a different target while already having an active tether, both Tethers lose their slow, both targets will get 150+(+0.3 AP) magic damage when the tether ends and each of them is rooted for 1 second. The initial tether's duration is also reset.

If Karma didn't have an active tether before using Renewal, she gets the current live effect. (loses the detonation damage)

QoL addition,both for Karma and those playing against her: Karma's Tether now displays its breaking range.

Inspire (E): Defiance AoE Shield increased to 50/100/150/200(+35% AP) from 30/70/110/150(+30% AP)

E doesn't really need anything radical, it's just that the AoE shield on it's current state is terribly weak compared to the damage you can do with Mantra Q, while you can always just shield their priority target anyway.

34 Comments

RiotRiot Baconhawk8/4/2014, 11:47:50 PM12 votes

Disclaimer: I'm discussing this as part of the Skins Team, not a designer! Don't flog me or fry me in a hot pan, as delicious as I might sound D:

Part of my reasoning that her R+Q combo is just too tasty to pass up is that the main damage and slow are all on the initial burst. If the damage was shifted to the back end of the spell, the explosion, then Karma players might have to play more strategically and might be more inclined to line up a tether stun first (possibly in conjunction with a shield speedup) in order to get the perfect combo, rather than just spamming Qs & R+Qs.

Tristyric8/5/2014, 2:15:00 AM3 votes

I enjoy playing Karma on the mid lane and I usually don't feel obligated to R+Q. Mid lane I tend to evenly level Q and W. The majority of my engages are actually R+W (mega drain as i like to call it) >E >Q Ignite. Tank through the damage, gain a ton of life and finish off the enemy with the Q and ignite. I find actually find that in most situations even late game scrambles I prefer R+W or R+E for the survivability. Both mantra abilities can do quite a bit of damage when used correctly.

I do see the reasoning behind people favoring the immediate damage in the Mantra Q though. Its a big burst when it does hit and it makes an excellent 'poke kill' under turrets at times. Add to the the comparative safety as opposed to the other two mantra and its easy to see why its favored. I can't see many players passing up big ranged damage to go ham on a 'squishy' mage, which is why I think a lot of players always go for the Mantra Q even when it might not actually be the best choice.

Sire Hippington8/4/2014, 4:28:54 PM3 votes

I think the problem is not the powerlvl of her W/E mantras, but the shared cds. Q is the low cd spam spell, so it is nearly always up when ur matra is up aswell, while E and W are often on cd the moment u might want to mantra them.

Adjust the values of her mantra skills for potential doublecasts and give them there own CDs, so u really can choose depending of the situation what mantra u want.

This would automaticall buff W+E mandra as u could dublicate the utillity with a double-cast(needs to be considered dmg wise though to keep her balanced)

For me, Heimer got the same problem, i often end up using his tower cause W and E are on cd once u would need them empowered

cHAncEman12928/5/2014, 2:01:11 AM3 votes

As a Karma main I actually disagree with this post. **Completely. **

*The only suggestion I've ever had for Karma is for her be able to receive X second(s) cool down reduction on Mantra for shielding an allied champion. *

Karma is played around managing her skills and managing her Mantra charge. While, yes, Mantra Q seems to be the most attractive option I believe it to be a very fitting option of an upgraded style ult. Players that know how the manage her Gathering Fire passive will come to see great value in her other Mantra skills depending on the situation.

Mantra W is a LETHAL bait. I can not stress this enough - it does a good amount of damage, heals Karma and reduces her Mantra by 6 seconds on full duration.

Mantra E is very valuable for its haste or emergency re-positioning upon engage. Further more a Karma player should consider the value of their Q slow verse the damage.

I think Karma is a champion built upon all these opinions - these tools are just something else for her to pull out of her bag of tricks to alter the course of battle. I feel like Mantra Q a nice option but I primarily am more attracted to its use for maximizing her Passive. My favorite of the 3 is actually Resolve.

JimmynatorB8/5/2014, 12:15:51 AM2 votes

I agree that she is too forced to use her Q mantra, the reason being that it deals the most damage, it's the most useful spell to kite (because it has more range than her W), and it's the most useful spell to follow someone (same reason). The only reasons you would use the W one is in case you are almost dying and the E one is only if you want to engage (loosing all of the damage and shield) or disengage (only if your team is together after engaging).

I'd say please, PLEASE, bring back the old shield bomb damage and shield ratios. They were too much fun and they are the reason I miss old karma so much. The ability to save someone with a huge shield that also dealt a ton of damage is something I miss a lot. I'd be happy if you decide to remove the speed boost and give us the old ratios, even if you have to nerf her other abilities just to be able to have those old ratios.

Mattarias8/5/2014, 2:05:10 AM2 votes

Can we go back to her E shield-nuke gameplay? That was far more fun.

While we're at it, give her back her REAL voice. She sounds like she's reading off a script now. Poorly.

Greenbanana8/5/2014, 5:58:05 PM1 votes

Why is Dmg the only thing that is being factored? Having an AOE shield for your team and instantly getting healed into a snare is worth mentioning. I think Karma is in a great spot and I enjoy playing her!Karma

PokladnicaZla8/5/2014, 5:59:37 PM1 votes

I dont have a problem with her,i can beat her,but her R+Q is kind of toxic.

If a player who is good with skillshoots,uses/fires it at you,it will hit even you dodge the center,because of the range it will do damage.

IMO Q could reworked into her old one,R+Q healing allies(just an opinion,not even a suggestion)

Sardinas8/5/2014, 6:13:28 PM1 votes

What is distanceb i keep seeing that (i know its not related to gnar but still)

CaptainWednesday8/4/2014, 3:19:51 PM1 votes

Focused Resolve (W): Damage changed to 60/100/140/180/220(+65% AP) from 60/110/160/210/260(+6% AP)

You're proposing the Ability Power scaling drops from 65% -> 6%?

Cuix8/5/2014, 9:31:42 PM1 votes

Honestly, RW and RE are already plenty strong. As someone who greatly enjoys playing Karma mid or top, and consistently finds her to be fine already, I'd rather see her only get minor number tweaks from here on out.

... Although, I do miss classy graceful fan-and-dress lady :c.

The5lacker8/4/2014, 3:31:11 PM1 votes

Don't think the Mantra -W changes are necessary or sensible, as Mantra'd abilities have to share a cooldown. Unless you wanted to change that, which I'd be all for. Only change to Mantra-E is that the bonus shield needs to scale on Mantra's rank and apply to the primary target.

Hyrum Graff8/4/2014, 4:34:08 PM1 votes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-skins/Vada19t2-on-karma-fqcdc-talismanlocket

AK47WOLF8/4/2014, 8:43:32 PM1 votes

Karma can't really get any net-positive changes without a bit of kit adjustment. She is virtually impossible to lane against because her shield has a laughably low cooldown and is an extremely high amount of effective HP.

Linna Excel8/5/2014, 12:07:08 AM1 votes

Didn't they buff the mantra W and E in her rework?

Vortex IV8/5/2014, 3:02:03 PM1 votes

Sadly if you suggest this to Riot they would gut the current ulted version of Q rather than make the ulted W and E more attractive. Karma can't handle that as she is right now, it's probably better Riot does nothing at all here.