Some thoughts on Dynamic Queue as a true Solo Player since day 1.

Chocolate Frog·4/10/2016, 6:32:12 PM·218 votes·8,119 views

Hey guys, I originally wrote some stuff on Reddit, but I figured this is a better place to voice our concerns since it's the official Riot Boards.

I've been playing this game since around season 3 ( Jinx or Lucian release, don't remember which came first) and I don't know if it's just the nostalgia, but the game was so much more fun back then.

I enjoyed learning about the game, playing the game myself, observing how people carried games, watching streams, even carrying myself on odd occasions.

It felt like a unique and rewarding challenge, queue'ing up to grind some soloQ.

When they first announced Dynamic Queue I figured it would be like teambuilder, or the new type game mode that people play in place of normals.

I didn't think that Riot would actually remove the best part of their game, its competitiveness.

We were constantly reassured that Riot would do no such crazy thing and here are the communications from Riot on the issue (credit to Reddit user /u/baberg for compiling the sources);

  • January 19th, Riot Lyte said "a few weeks after the season start" Source)
  • February 4th Riot Lyte updates it to "a month or two" Source)
  • March 3rd, a Tweet from @RiotSupport said it was "a month and a half" away Source)
  • March 22nd from Riot Socrates, it became "...we're concerned about the impact solo queue will have on matchmaking as a whole, and we’re assessing how to best proceed. Once we've fixed match times and position selection, we’ll have a better update on other queues." Source)
  • And in a reply to that March 22nd post Riot Socrates confirmed (emphasis mine): "We'll be honest: there's definitely a world in which solo queue doesn't return, but we'd rather keep it on the table as we work through these issues before making a final decision." Source)

Now, a couple days ago, a video from Riot Korea hit the frontpage, and we saw a Rioter saying that he feels as if they've lied to the players.

I just want to say that I feel the way Riot has handled this issue is very sad.

Here's a comment summarizing my thoughts when the Korean Rioter made his statement;

This is sad as fuck.

Like I would have been pissed either way, but I would have respected Riot much more if they had just said from the beginning; "This is how it's gonna be, deal with it or just quit."

But this, this treating of your probably most dedicated player group (the soloQ grinders) as if they're 5 year old children and you're just waiting for them to forget about the chocolate you promised them.

It's disgusting.

Not even gonna go in to the fact that pretty much every single person who actually matters, who knows how to play the game and who knows how this game works (the pros), have said it's a terrible decision.

And all for what?

To appeal to some casual fucks who log on once a week on saturdays to play a game with their buddies, and to let them have a false sense of ranking/achievement.

Something they're not putting into the equation though, is that the top 1%, the pros, the ex-pros, the streamers, these people are the ones who drive the masses. They're the ones doing your advertising.

And every single one of them hates Dynamic Queue.

Keep pissing them off, and you'll eventually get them to quit, taking their viewers/fanbases with them.

Of course, no constructive critisicm is complete without offering some solutions.

I'll add one more comment which contains what I think is the best solution, and after that I'd be very happy to hear what you guys think on this issue.

Some of you may know, this topic is now banned from being talked about on /r/leagueoflegends.

I severely disagree with the effort to silence people, when many people actually do want to talk about this very major change to the game we all enjoy.

Here's my solution;

How do you measure skill in a team game with 5 members?

Logically, if our end goal is true competitive integrity I see 2 ways;

#1) Measure the team as a single unit, AKA Ranked 5's.

If we win as a team and lose as a team, then it does make sense that we are an addition of all our skills and weaknesses and need to be measured as a collective 5.

The problem with this is that very few people have 5 friends all within the same skill level, all who have time schedules which are compatible with each other and actually want to constantly play with each other.

#2) Every man for himself, AKA SoloQ.

The old system was indeed flawed, as it allowed you to bring in another person of your choice.

While this did mess with the fairness of games (as admitted by Riot, since in previous seasons they made the opposing team of duo queues slightly higher in MMR to compensate), it was of a small enough impact to be negligible. It was a tolerable flaw.

True SoloQ on the other hand, is the only way individual skill can be accurately measured in a team game.

No duo's, no friends, every single person starting the game under the exact same conditions, being randomly matched with 4 other players at the same MMR level.

Playing enough games, and being the only constant of all your games, this system will give you a true represantation of your skill.

Now enter Dynamic Queue;

Think of all the possible variations between 2 teams.

1+4, 2+2+1, 2+3, 1+1+1+1+1, 3+1+1, I could go on listing but I'm lazy and bad at math so I'll probably forget some anyways, but you get the idea.

So the system has to assess all of these variables, make sure both teams have equal amounts of premades and same conditions if possible(for example a 3 man premade and 2 solo players on both sides), also take into account MMR ranges, and then check to see if one of their preferred roles are available.

Given the size of the League of Legends playerbase, theoretically, after a long enough wait, the system will find a suitable matchup.

But how long will the queue time be?

30 minutes? 50 minutes? 70 minutes?

Recieving complaints all day every day about queue times, Riot will of course choose to decrease the system accuracy in exchange for finding quicker matches.

It will broaden the acceptable MMR gap exponentially as time starts stacking up, desperately trying to just find 10 people to put in a game together, and that's how you end up with situations like this.

Riot could potentially be able to implement fair matches into Dynamic Queue, but it would come at the cost of staggeringly long queue times.

Ain't nobody gonna wait an hour for a game of League.

What do I think the best solution would be?

1) Make Dynamic Queue the new Normal Game Mode. Let'em have a Party MMR or whatever if it makes them happy.

2) Implement True SoloQ, no duo's, every man for himself.

3) Bring back ranked 5's.

By bringing back Ranked 5's as well, people who actually want to compete with their friends and be measured as a collective unit, have a way to do so.

SoloQ makes the dedicated soloQ grinders happy.

The Casuals have their own Party MMR as well, and can play with as many friends as they have online at that moment, whenever, wherever they like, and they get something to show for it. (Party MMR specific borders, icons, wards, whatever the season rewards are.)

Please, don't refrain from talking about this issue, and whether you support SoloQ or not, contribute to the discussion.

The moment we stop talking and just leave everything to the flow is the moment we've given up on the game we all love.

129 Comments

iainB854/10/2016, 10:18:29 PM44 votes

Keep up the passion guys. I don't think I've ever seen so many upvoted threads about a particular change in LoL until this one. Don't rest and keep this up... I really want Riot to reconsider and give us back Solo Q! I love the competitiveness of this game and I find it so hard to enjoy with Dynamic Queue...

PDE5 Inhib4/10/2016, 7:51:03 PM23 votes

I've seen a hella lot more "I'm quitting League" posts this season that ever before. Probably because they are using business major logic while making their decisions. Some of the shit they've been doing is so blatantly bad that I'm not sure what they are doing.

Zeal Seeker4/10/2016, 7:39:33 PM18 votes

I feel like riot is deaf, or just plain ignoring the situation. They haven't done anything to try fix the problem, they presented no ideas for a solution. It's been months now since the first promise of solo queue and all they have done is stall.

612X0dbmDS4/10/2016, 7:37:44 PM16 votes

This was a well written post. You said everything needed to be said and I have nothing to add but an upvote.

Nαgma4/10/2016, 9:47:18 PM11 votes

Not even gonna go in to the fact that pretty much every single person who actually matters, who knows how to play the game and who knows how this game works (the pros), have said it's a terrible decision. And all for what? To appeal to some casual fucks who log on once a week on saturdays to play a game with their buddies, and to let them have a false sense of ranking/achievement. Something they're not putting into the equation though, is that the top 1%, the pros, the ex-pros, the streamers, these people are the ones who drive the masses. They're the ones doing your advertising. And every single one of them hates Dynamic Queue.

i totaly agree here , riot made a systeme for casuals cleary .. and **they didnt care about the one who promotes their games ** the top elo players and streamers who are most of the time high elo League couldnt be so populare without the famous streameurs promoting this game during 6 years .

https://twitter.com/FroggenLoL/status/718484846008483841 https://twitter.com/FroggenLoL/status/718484464817606656 https://twitter.com/FORG1VENGRE/status/717784137147527168

Thats just sad to see that , 2 monster of the solo q not able to play in a decent solo q systeme anymore . forgiven was top 1 of the ladder just by playing solo ( back when duo q was abusable like trio q ) . Thats sad because we will never see new names , riot fcked competitive integrity : a team is looking for a player -> pick up the best solo q players players who are not in a team will be hard to find since climbing challenger elo looks so fcking hard to do SOLO After a 40 min q -> tag solo => vs trioq | tag trioq => vs 5 man | tag 5 man => vs LCS team. RIP OR you get matched with diamonds player .

i feel bad for them because being matched with diamonds when you are challenger is like being gold 1 and being matched with Silver 4 trashs .

In my opinion the only way to fix dynamic q is to give it a solo q ladder/mmr ( if you tag solo you gain LP/mmr in the solo q ladder , and if you tagg as premades you gain lp/mmr in your premade ladder ) , delete 4 man premades and make 100% of trioq get matched with a duo . BUT bring back solo q is the most easy way to fix the issues .

Tik1154/11/2016, 2:24:19 AM9 votes

unfortunately Riot clearly have their heads in the sand hoping we will all forget.

The thing is this isn't like the Karma, Cass, Morde or Sona rework which affected (arguably) a small amount of players this affects the MAJORITY of players.

And here's the thing Dynamic que in normals? sure I mean when I want to play with friends and do dumb stuff like Heimer and Sol bot lane I'd go to normals so I can do that but in Ranked? if friends want to do ranked you could duo, have more then 1 friend? well sure that's a bit of a problem but from what i've seen many people who are friends use to do ranked solo to get an accurate judgement of their skill.

And I'm almost certain they'll never bring solo que back, Riot has NEVER reverted anything big once it's left the PBE, people wanted the mordes and cass rework reverted but instead kept that mess on, or when Olaf was Olaf'd, could of reverted, didn't, how quickly would our problems be solved if they just readded the old ranked? it should be easy unless they deleted all the coding for it (Which by the way, Rule 1 of game development, back up your shit, hand in your game dev badge if you deleted all coding and back ups related to it riot) but they won't do it, to them it's always "We know best, we did best" instead of going back to the drawing board they just throw everything to make it stick.

I mean at this point their hands close to the fire, they keep doing stuff like this they're gonna get burnt

I'm pretty sure all of us just want them to stop shitting round the bush and simply answer the question bluntly

Are we getting SoloQ yes or no?

(You know they'll stall again, or not, prove me wrong Riot)

Cenobite Azaziel4/11/2016, 7:27:47 AM8 votes

The game peaked and is now in free fall. Tencent bought the whole company. The old owners and most of game designers are now keeping LoL on life support just grab a little cash before it falls into "meh" state in 1 or 2 years.

"Oh where are the evidences?" 1- League don't publish their total player base anymore. It is a total mystery how many ppl are playing and if the game is growing. When a game is doing fine companies boast about it, showing numbers and charts, like used to do in 2013/2014. When it is going bad (see JP x-box one sales =T), they don't speak about it.

2- Servers are shutting down. "But we have NA, OCE etc.." Yes. Riot is shutting down servers. Ladders, especific servers. See dominion. It is gone. Ranked team? Gone. All solidified to become one queue. They are cutting corners with servers expense.

3- Changing design dogmas. New champions all have something that the old designers thought it would be an ass to deal with. See TahmKench Kalista Bard trolling or Ekko excessive burden of knowledge or RekSai view. They reached the peak of design and are braking a few rules.

4- @Lyte 2014 hated voice chat. Talked about unfair advantage and increase of toxicity if you were obligated to use it. Now he's dead silent on the subject that in a 4/1 team you are practically forced into a voice chat or pay the price of being the team's leper, isolated with no ping and totally ignored.

5- Dynamic queue is introduced into the game not to make it fair or more fun. Hell, you can have a lot of fun in normal games with troll comps. When they throw you into ranked with team they want you to become a forced community. To feel peer pressure to buy stuff. "Oh see my new skin? ". "Come on dude, give me a skin it is my birthday ". They are throwing in the trash can all the work they did to make lol and "e-sport" (hate that word) taking a dump on the "soloqueue" natural habitat of pro players.

6- While the game is 6 years old and SCRIPTING (LUA script, BOL etc..) and BOTING (same) are a know problem, there is no VAC. There is no immediate answer to cheating. Some bans here and there but no solid tool to wreck the cheaters.

7- Elo boosting is a problem. Probably even bigger now with dynamic queue.

8- April fools "Hey, you like draven right? Draven draven ! Draven! Gimme you cash! Free icons? Hell no. Use you ip (ip sink) and the rest of it only if you buy anything.

9- Hextech crafting. Yay... introduction of RGN for key+RGN for opening. A.K.A. treat your customer as a addicted gambler. We only want cash from the whales =].

10- You probably won't see any more free stuff in this game. Free ward skin for team ranked? Gone with the ladder. Free sportsmanship? Nah, that is hextech crafting now. I hope this doesn't become a Dungeon Keeper portable.

11- The game is too harsh on new players. Hell I'm playing it for 3~4 years and I still have 20 champions I don't own (bought some with RP and my runes pages were bough with RP). Good luck for the begginers. I don't try to recruit anyone to this game. Meaning the game is focused in its early adopters or is trying to get new customers. It is impossible to full fill all the desires of the two player bases.

Akeydel4/10/2016, 9:38:12 PM8 votes

Here's an alternate perspective which I think might help.

we saw a Rioter saying that he feels as if they've lied to the players.

The reason said Rioter feels guilty is because they DID promise SoloQ. But it wasn't an executive decision to scrap it, one that they lied about for months. It was a slow realization that, simply because of the nature of the two, "SoloQ is not possible with DynamicQ", one they came to after spending 3 months trying to figure out a solution.

By the time the New Champ Select Update came around, they fully understood the situation and wanted to let the community down easy. (I imagine the backlash would have been much worse it the update had said "we can't do SoloQ, deal with it")

There still might be a solution for people who want to play against only solo player ever. But I very highly doubt it.

TNHA Baritone4/11/2016, 9:30:13 AM7 votes

And all for what?

To appeal to some casual fucks who log on once a week on saturdays to play a game with their buddies, and to let them have a false sense of ranking/achievement.

If this isn't the most believable things I've ever read....I don't know about anything anymore.

Steven Mcburn4/11/2016, 1:13:24 AM7 votes

At this point riot should just man up and do the easiest thing they can do.

Remove 4 man as an option. Boom. Fixed.

True solo queue, no duo's or anything. Dynamic queue with 2, 3, 5 man queues.

It's not that hard, people who want to play together can and people who don't don't have to. I don't honestly even care if the MMR and stuff is the same between the queues, let people who care about rank care about rank. I just don't want long match timers that are trying to fit in all the different random team sizes in elo ranges anymore. That shit takes ages.

Removing 4 man queues is the compromise that is needed to fix this debacle. I'm betting in terms of actual game-to-report ratios it's the most toxic anyway, I'm also willing to bet it's what slows the match making down tremendously and makes this take forever. I find it hard to believe there aren't supports queued up, especially when I hit fill to find matches and it still takes 10 minutes in silver.

Chuck Charles4/11/2016, 2:01:53 AM7 votes

its not important to riot to have a competitive environment. the LCS will always be a thing even if it becomes a shitty, watered down, less popular version of itself.

games like WOW are still going even though the hardcore playerbase is gone. riot can and will continue to make money and have a popular game with league of legends even if the competitive aspect of it gets shittier and shittier. which is what will happen if this set up is left in place.

but they will be fine. the game will gone. they will still make money. i thnk people are delusional if they believe this game is just gonna disappear because it appeals to casuals. it might even make them more money in the end. it just sucks that they can't appeal to both.

i mean solo queue drives competitive. ranked 5's drive competitive. solo Q can appeal to casuals. do casuals even care about their rank anyway? thats what I don't get. the casuals dont need to play ranked with their friends because they don't really play ranked.

Streetlight Man4/10/2016, 7:16:15 PM6 votes

Well put

Stevev454/10/2016, 7:49:09 PM6 votes

My guess is they want the game that every one plays to be like the game the pro's play. As it was/is Solo Que, and competitive LoL are like different games. If they can force people to play on organized teams the two games will be more similar.

I liked the pick up style game that solo que provided though. I'm not interested in playing LoL in any kind of organized way.

Gene Freakz4/10/2016, 10:23:32 PM6 votes

Hey great post! I am a soloq supporter but so many posts have mentioned the fact that if Riot implements more game modes those game modes will have long queue times. I don't know the numbers of those who like soloq, dq, and everything in between. The fact is that solo queues, like me, are helping out those that want to play duos, trios, and quads because we fill a role and make queue times shorter. If dq were to be the new normal and soloq re-implemented , dq might have horrendously long queue times. That, however, is fine by me because dq can burn in hell except for the fact that you get to choose your role (unless you put fill or support in and you don't want to play support).

In all actuality Riot will not implement these huge changes in this season (or mabye at all) because that will take time and money, and that is sad because I enjoyed League a lot up until season 6. I have posted a lot about my distaste for dq and so have many others. This season will continue to be this way and people may leave or they may not. What will really affect Riot and the community is what happens in season 7. With all of the negative responses dq has received, we will have to wait and see how Riot responds to the feeling's of its player base. Will they bring back soloq or a similar game mode? We'll just have to wait and see, but once the final word is out, it could hurt Riot hence the delay and secretiveness.

The Deckowner4/11/2016, 1:19:33 PM6 votes

I am pretty sure dynamic queue will eventually cause all the high elo players to either smurf or quit the game. in high diamond/master/challenger the matchmaking is broken and queue time is extremely long.

zmmby4/11/2016, 6:18:50 AM5 votes

Good argument. Upvoted and signed.

rtbf2256182414/11/2016, 4:43:28 PM5 votes

Tbh if Season 7 will be like this, then i've lost all hope. Because right now i can hope they're just experimenting.

KnKitsune4/11/2016, 12:58:23 AM5 votes

Like I would have been pissed either way, but I would have respected Riot much more if they had just said from the beginning; "This is how it's gonna be, deal with it or just quit."

If that actually happened, I'm sure Riot would have had an army of angry players(pitchforks and all) outside their headquarters. Or losing 80% of their playerbase, thus making stock holders take back their stocks because theres no reason to invest in a company that lost almost all of their customers in 1 week or 2.

Nagma is back4/11/2016, 3:20:46 AM5 votes

@RIOTSOCRATES @RIOTLYTE WHERE THE FUCK ARE YOU ???

Invictus Unbent4/11/2016, 8:42:36 AM4 votes

Signed and upvoted. I haven't touched Ranked this season, I've only played normal games. Please make the ranked system competitive again.

Oerba No Naja4/10/2016, 10:42:25 PM4 votes

i like your ideas , it lmakes everyone happy and it respect competitive integrity .

Scramrail4/11/2016, 4:25:45 PM4 votes

They say that the data supports the notion that Dynamic Q is more popular, yet they never indicate where that data is coming from. Ive certainly never been asked plainly if I would prefer solo Q over dynamic Q (and im not even setting foot into ranked without Solo Q).

The issue I take with this entire move is that they already had a competitive ladder for people to play 5v5 with their friends, ranked 5s, but nowhere in the entirety of this game is there a place for purely solo Q players to challenge themselves competitively. The only thing we had was ranked, but even that had duo Qs as the OP pointed out. But even still, I would much prefer the old solo Q back if it meant getting rid of dynamic Q.

From where im sitting, the only reason Riot doesn't want to release a purely solo Q is because they know it will kill dynamic Q by massively increasing queue times for all sub-5 man teams, and since dynamic Q is their baby they absolutely don't want to do that, even if the majority of the community did.

Korillo4/11/2016, 4:28:05 PM4 votes

I stopped playing over a month ago because solo queue never came, and it didn't seem like it was actually going to happen. They made that 1 save face post about it saying it was in the works, and then I just heard dead silence after that. Seeing the OP's post just confirms it I guess, SoloQ is over.

I liked playing league and could put up with the duos, but I can only play so often and being forced to try and find people to play at the same times I can play is just not realistic in my case - especially when there is a ranking system where players are separated by skill level. Most of the friends that I have I have made from other games, and we'll occasionally play league together but it's very rare, and honestly they suck at league. It's fun playing with them but I'm not going to play ranked with them because I like to have competitive games.

Eliminating soloQ loses that competitive aspect imo. I only queued for ranked solo, that's the only way I've ever played it, and I loved it. Taking this option away really sucks.

Karn Bishop4/10/2016, 9:09:15 PM3 votes

Yes, the fact that this game had a competitive nature is why it was popular in the first place, its why starcraft also got popular as well and to remove that is just slowly killing your game.

Secretlolz4/10/2016, 11:53:16 PM3 votes

Nicely done, But at this point I just hope Riot suffers a backlash bad enough to be imposible to recover from, similar to what happened to WoW

Stoner Fox4/11/2016, 4:05:35 AM3 votes

Upvoted.

We need a true soloq system.

ForeverLaxx4/11/2016, 4:54:01 AM3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chocolate Frog,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IRcVXOZy,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-04-10T18:32:12.100+0000)

Hey guys, I originally wrote some stuff on Reddit, but I figured this is a better place to voice our concerns since it's the official Riot Boards.

You'd think so, but Riot doesn't really use their own boards for anything outside of the idiotic "meme" section. Reddit is the only place they look to for player concerns, and since you stated yourself that Reddit has banned this kind of talk there (more evidence as to why that site is a complete joke), no one in Riot's office is going to see this.

Your efforts are appreciated by us players, but ultimately futile.

YossarianSensei4/11/2016, 12:21:12 AM3 votes

I feel like the biggest problem with DQ isn't actually the solo queuers but rather different premades have vastly different skill even if the individual players are about the same skill level

Some premades are super tryhard and some are just troll, it basically breaks the system.

mogonk4/11/2016, 12:20:35 PM3 votes

Man, I thought my thread about this was the final word on the topic. I was wrong. Great post summing up the larger issues at play and why having Solo Queue in the game actually matters A LOT. Big ups.

But I stand by what I said in that post. I agree 100% with your reasoning for why Solo Queue should exist. But it's not going to happen.

1Maza4/11/2016, 11:59:01 PM3 votes

Best post on the Boards in a long time. I'm sure we'll never see a Rioter comment though.

[zombie-nunu-bummed]

Gnart Even Close4/11/2016, 11:53:50 PM2 votes

Normally, I would simply disagree with these type of posts, but yours was actually incredibly well-written and acknowledged several key points. The problem simply is that playing with friends is more fun than playing by yourself, and many people want to play ranked with friends. This essentially means that to keep the player base, Riot would need both Dynamic Q and Solo Q. The issue is that this negatively affects Q time, making it less fun for both groups. I think a fair compromise would be to have Solo Q, Ranked Teams, and Dynamic Q. Dynamic Q would be with either 2 or 3 players, meaning that it would not affect or be affected by solo players going to Solo Q. When there are 4 man teams, there needs to be solo players to fill in the gap, and if that is eliminated, then there is no need to keep the solo players in the same system. I personally believe that this should all be in the same launcher, and it should adapt based on how many players are in the Q together. 1 would be Solo Q, 2 or 3 would by Dynamic Q, 4 would not be allowed, and 5 would by Ranked Teams. This should not negatively affect any of the Qs, and by forcing Dynamic Q to be with either 2 or 3 players, Q times could be significantly improved, and all groups would be satisfied. I sincerely hope that Riot deeply considers a solution like this instead of eliminating either Solo Q or Dynamic Q. If they need to finish tuning Dynamic Q first, so be it, but it would probably be easier to implement something like this sooner rather than later. Even if Dynamic Q is not taken seriously as a true ranking, at least most groups will be happier than they are now.