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Fizz changes

Great Wolf Sif·2/4/2015, 3:50:20 PM·11 votes·3,833 views

Hello everyone! I'm a player you could say has no real main, and flip flops around with champions trying to find out what works for me (although I've been playing since mid season 2). Lately I've been extremely depressed due to Fizz being CHANGED and heavily nerfed on top of that. He was the champion I felt closest to as far as design goes and I really enjoyed playing him. I do agree that his pre-nerf form was very powerful, as it was easy to punish anyone who was squishy and then move on to disabling tanks, but what I dislike the most about his changes is he was hit with a million different things at one direct time. I have four major topics that I'd like to dive into and hopefully elaborate on what really drives me into a deep sadness about this champions fall from glory.

  1. Becoming completely ult reliant: Fizz always played like a champion who didn't have to rely on his ult for damage and instead relied on his slippery ability in his other three skills to really show us who he is. To me, I feel like making him so ult reliant that it's ridiculous is rather harsh and throws his gameplay in the complete wrong direction. Not only do you have to rely on a skillshot that can be dodged for counterplay, but you run the risk of missing and having it cleansed. His other three skills are crap other than his E (which should be used for ulility/mobility not the main damage dealer.) What drives me insane is that new Fizz feels nothing like old Fizz because all his gameplay begins if he lands his ult or not, and if that falls through you just have to sit around and wait until next time or watch as the enemy team realizes that you're useless. I think my biggest argument against the damage changes and shifting his power into his ultimate change is this: If you removed his ultimate from his kit, would he even be strong enough to play or any fun at all? What's left after you remove his ult is what makes Fizz... Fizz.

  2. Lot of changes, untested, and thrown into live: Basically, Fizz's Q was ninja hotfixed and people started noticing a considerable change of pace for the champion (if they played him.) This was something that is completely understandable and I have no objection towards. What I feel is that this was not even considered for the nerfs that followed into the PBE. It's disgusting that these fizz changes were put on the PBE and then thrown into live almost immediately as if it was completely fine and there was nothing wrong with it. Imagine if they took Zed and took away his ult dash, or cut Lee Sin's ult damage in half on the PBE and then pushed that to live without even seeing if that change had an EXTREMELY adverse effect on the champion. I feel like these Fizz changes (other than the Q dodge) were extremely untested and just thrown out to please a lot of people which brings me to my next point.

  3. Too many people saying "He won't be missed": What do you mean he won't be missed?!?! He's a champion in the league of legends! You shouldn't want him to be GONE FOREVER AND GUTTED, you should want him to be balanced! I strongly feel like these changes were way overboard and have thrown him far away from his identity. People shouldn't be happy about any champion being extremely weak, all champions should be at least playable in a sense that you can find fun in them, but having to rely on your skillshot ult for everything is not fun to me. I hate these sheer ignorance posts on reddit when any thread about Fizz comes up that addresses his problem and all they have to say is "Good." I care about the champions in this game whether they are too strong or too weak and I want to see them all at least capturing their themes and able to be played as a bunch of unique personalities. (Even Teemo.)

  4. Grievous Wounds: You saw this coming, and boy did it really really break my heart to see this one go. The reason behind why it was removed is that it didn't fit him thematically, but that just doesn't make sense to me. He's using a trident which would cause some insane wounds, most of us already thought it was covered in some kind of poison that was sea related, and he empowers it when you activate the ability so obviously something magical/technical is going on there. ***This was the biggest thing I could have identified Fizz with before the change. It was one of his staples that made me love him so much. ***

As a person who loves Fizz thematically, I hate to see this shift happen to him. To be quite honest I wouldn't even mind if they would have just made him AD, just as long as his kits design left untouched. As a final note I want to make it clear I think that making his Q dodge-able was a step in the right direction and should have marinated a bit before throwing up all over Fizz.

78 Comments

Stephenizgod2/4/2015, 6:36:21 PM5 votes

Well i agree that making him entirely Ult reliant probably isnt the best way to go, but pre-nerf Fizz was ridiculously powerful. His mobility+damage made him absolutely no fun to fight against and when he killed you he still had his ult to kill someone else... I like that now he requires his ult to kill someone (just like everyone else) it makes for better game play for him and his opponent, but making him rely on his ult removes the variety of his combo.

The Grievous Wounds needed to go and nothing you can say can change that, a champion with such high burst does not need the ability to make sure they cant heal. If he failed to kill them then thats that, he didnt need Grievous Wounds.

Why wont Fizz be missed? We are tired of seeing him, he has been an OP annoying strong pick for waaay too long, im sure people want to stop seeing Lee Sin and Jarvan too.

Alot of Fizz threads over-exaggerate this nerf, he is still plenty strong he just isnt Freelo strong now, i understand thats a big difference but he was not healthy for the game as he was. I would be mad too if they nerfed Malzahar, but i would get over it because i know there are things about him that lack counter-play or are somewhat random. Besides there is no variety in Malzahars combos (even AD Malz has a similar kill combo) so if a nerf comes i hope it helps to change his one kill combo. The thing is Fizz is just harder to use now, that doesnt mean he is bad i have seen several Fizz that have done extremely well because they knew how to use him after the nerf. Instead of spending time coming up with reasons why this nerf sucks, start practicing with new Fizz, learn how to play him.

Raxicor2/4/2015, 4:28:52 PM4 votes

I agree he feels really odd now. I'm pretty much limited to all-ins or nothing in order to get a kill(maybe). I've only played him a few times since the change and there's a reason for that. I agree with their high risk/high reward idea, but now it seems like the risk outweighs the reward. And there is only one good combo R-W-Q-E. Fizz's poke is not very good or reliable right now and it eats mana like no tomorrow.

I've been meaning to try AD Fizz. I hear its a pretty fun time.

TSM Hai2/4/2015, 3:56:22 PM3 votes

Fizz was too strong. He needed nurfs through the ass.

/close

Kürama2/5/2015, 1:16:13 AM3 votes

Agreed with everything. Well thought out post and you express how every Fizz player (including mains) feel about him.

PolkaDotPistol2/5/2015, 4:23:53 AM3 votes

Honestly, the win rate says it all. He went from having an average to good win rate to the bottom of the barrel with Urgot. Riot is on an anti assasin rampage. They took them out of the jungle and now they are talking them out of mid lane. Correct me if im wrong, but arent zed and ahri the only viable assassins in the game right now? You could say many champs are viable, but strong? They ruined fizz, plain and simple.

I understand that many of you had trouble with him in the mid lane and like it now that he really cant be played. The truth is he had so much power because he is a MELE assassin. It took more risk for him to get in and deal damage. This is why all mele characters have higher scaling and base stats than ranged. I am bored with mid lane nowadays. It used to be a real fight, but now it is more like the afk pushers are taking over. Its sad really.

It may surprise you to know that I dont main fizz. I hardly play him. I am just sad because he was one of the few mid laners left that might actually fight with me in lane is gone. I cant tell you how boring it is to sit against xerath and watch him as he sits back with flash and heal whilst spamming his q to farm all day.

I just think that Riot new direction has been supporting passive, boring, safe gameplay.

Stonington2/5/2015, 7:34:25 AM3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Great Wolf Sif,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HvwNAwuE,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-02-04T15:50:20.811+0000)

Becoming completely ult reliant: Fizz always played like a champion who didn't have to rely on his ult for damage and instead relied on his slippery ability in his other three skills to really show us who he is. To me, I feel like making him so ult reliant that it's ridiculous is rather harsh and throws his gameplay in the complete wrong direction.

Not only do you have to rely on a skillshot that can be dodged for counterplay, but you run the risk of missing and having it cleansed.

His other three skills are crap other than his E (which should be used for ulility/mobility not the main damage dealer.) What drives me insane is that new Fizz feels nothing like old Fizz because all his gameplay begins if he lands his ult or not, and if that falls through you just have to sit around and wait until next time or watch as the enemy team realizes that you're useless. I think my biggest argument against the damage changes and shifting his power into his ultimate change is this: If you removed his ultimate from his kit, would he even be strong enough to play or any fun at all? What's left after you remove his ult is what makes Fizz... Fizz.

Let me start off by saying, I hate Fizz. I used to permaban him when I was new and overall he was always my most hated champ. Then I figured out how to not feed him in lane and what his counterplay was(he has very low waveclear, you need to deny him kills, and wait for him to troll poll to clear a wave.) Once I figured out the key. I felt very rewarded playing against him successfully.

With that out of the way, with his most recent changes he's shit tier. I highlighted the part of your thread that I feel is most important. The only time he can do any damage is once every 100-85-70 seconds. His ult can be sidestepped, cleansed, crucibled, or flashed away from. He's useless now. Was he OP before this? I don't think so. I don't play Fizz, so I really can't offer suggestions on how to fix him. Suffice to say, the nerfs hit him way-way too hard.

GummyBearWookiee2/5/2015, 4:28:10 PM3 votes

When you take an AP mage....and you nerf them into the ground so hard...that the only way to play him is AD....you've probably gone about it the wrong way.

Rebonack2/4/2015, 6:01:21 PM2 votes

Crazy idea: Reduce the base damage/AP ratio on Fizz' ult dramatically, then reduce its cooldown so that it's closer to a basic skill in terms of up-time (cooldown of 12 seconds or so). Up the damage on his Q slightly.

A damage amp tying a kit together is fine if it is on a relatively low cooldown skill. Fizz' Ult is far from a low cooldown skill.

Chespin20132/5/2015, 4:23:05 PM1 votes

i do agree with all u posted but i do think making fizz ult reliant was a positive speaking as a fizz lover i could how many times where i never really felt i needed a ult unless if it might have been overkill i feel like riot went sort of the right direction with fizzs ult in some way and making his q dodgable seemed fair but everything else just seemed like they raped the poor guy basically ghostcrawler came and nerfed him to the ground just like ret pallys from wow

mi ramfan2/4/2015, 10:30:47 PM1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Great Wolf Sif,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HvwNAwuE,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-02-04T15:50:20.811+0000)

Lately I've been extremely depressed due to Fizz being CHANGED and heavily nerfed on top of that. He was the champion I felt closest to as far as design goes and I really enjoyed playing him. I do agree that his pre-nerf form was very powerful, as it was easy to punish anyone who was squishy and then move on to disabling tanks, but what I dislike the most about his changes is he was hit with a million different things at one direct time.

Fizz's kit wasn't really CHANGED, just his numerical values; the only abilities that function significantly differently than before are his ult (same thing but gives damage amp) and his W (%HP and regular damage flipped, Grievous Wounds removed). Other then that, his changes were pure numbers.

  1. Becoming completely ult reliant: Fizz always played like a champion who didn't have to rely on his ult for damage and instead relied on his slippery ability in his other three skills to really show us who he is. To me, I feel like making him so ult reliant that it's ridiculous is rather harsh and throws his gameplay in the complete wrong direction. Not only do you have to rely on a skillshot that can be dodged for counterplay, but you run the risk of missing and having it cleansed. His other three skills are crap other than his E (which should be used for ulility/mobility not the main damage dealer.) What drives me insane is that new Fizz feels nothing like old Fizz because all his gameplay begins if he lands his ult or not, and if that falls through you just have to sit around and wait until next time or watch as the enemy team realizes that you're useless. I think my biggest argument against the damage changes and shifting his power into his ultimate change is this: If you removed his ultimate from his kit, would he even be strong enough to play or any fun at all? What's left after you remove his ult is what makes Fizz... Fizz.

See, before the Fizz changes, Fizz hardly had to use his ultimate at all because with a Lich Bane he could usually score kills with just his regular abilities. His ult was a "win more" ability; Fizz players who were good at landing it would burst you for 120% of your health instead of 105%, but Fizz players who were bad at using it would still kill you.

I don't feel that forcing Fizz to land his ultimate is a bad thing. No other champion can really just ignore their ultimate and succeed like pre-5.02 Fizz could. You state that Fizz is a worthless champion without his ultimate, but there are a great number of champions, probably over 50%, who wouldn't be strong enough to play without their ultimates. Fizz just isn't an exception anymore, and that's not a bad thing.

  1. Lot of changes, untested, and thrown into live: Basically, Fizz's Q was ninja hotfixed and people started noticing a considerable change of pace for the champion (if they played him.) This was something that is completely understandable and I have no objection towards. What I feel is that this was not even considered for the nerfs that followed into the PBE. It's disgusting that these fizz changes were put on the PBE and then thrown into live almost immediately as if it was completely fine and there was nothing wrong with it. Imagine if they took Zed and took away his ult dash, or cut Lee Sin's ult damage in half on the PBE and then pushed that to live without even seeing if that change had an EXTREMELY adverse effect on the champion. I feel like these Fizz changes (other than the Q dodge) were extremely untested and just thrown out to please a lot of people which brings me to my next point.

The change that was made to Fizz's Q was simple: if you flashed out of his Q's range, you would now actually not take damage instead of taking the full Q+W+Lich Bane proc's worth of damage. It added some counterplay to Fizz that was much needed with his pre-5.02 kit, where the skill with the most significant counterplay (his ult) wasn't even necessary to secure a kill most of the time.

Everything on the PBE gets tested by players, but the reality about PBE is that in 99% of cases Riot tested their changes internally before sending them to PBE. That's why the content on PBE is usually 99% bug free or has some minor bugs, because Riot already caught all the big ones. While Riot certainly considers PBE feedback, usually by the time something is on PBE it's already been decided on.

  1. Too many people saying "He won't be missed": What do you mean he won't be missed?!?! He's a champion in the league of legends! You shouldn't want him to be GONE FOREVER AND GUTTED, you should want him to be balanced! I strongly feel like these changes were way overboard and have thrown him far away from his identity. People shouldn't be happy about any champion being extremely weak, all champions should be at least playable in a sense that you can find fun in them, but having to rely on your skillshot ult for everything is not fun to me. I care about the champions in this game whether they are too strong or too weak and I want to see them all at least capturing their themes and able to be played as a bunch of unique personalities. (Even Teemo.)

I can't blame anyone for wanting Fizz gone forever. He's an extremely, extremely annoying champion to play against thanks to his high mobility, high burst, and that E. It's extremely frustrating to lane against him with any AP mage because he can use E to flat out ignore whatever spell you're maxing first, while his other abilities still do large amounts of damage even when not maxed thanks to the on-hit proc on Q and Sheen. He has a thousand ways to outplay any given mid laner, while most midlaners have no good way to outplay him.

I agree with you that all champions should be viable and nobody should get gutted, but there are plenty of champions who need help much more than current Fizz. In the jungle, champions like Sejuani, Nautilus, and Amumu just have no reason to exist when compared to Jarvan, Lee Sin, and Vi, all of whom have better clears, better ganks, and just bring more to a team than the above junglers. In mid lane, it's impractical to pick immobile burst mages like Brand, Veigar, and Viktor, because they simply can't deal with champions like LeBlanc, Zed, and pre-5.02 Fizz in lane. And before them, we even have champions like Urgot and Poppy who are just useless for any conceivable purpose.

Fizz can get a slight buff next patch if necessary, but more than that and he can get in line. Urgot, Poppy, and Brand are waiting.

  1. Grievous Wounds: You saw this coming, and boy did it really really break my heart to see this one go. The reason behind why it was removed is that it didn't fit him thematically, but that just doesn't make sense to me.

I don't know what to say to this because his Grievous Wounds provided nothing to his kit other then removing counterplay (and he already had little enough counterplay as it was). It was vague thematically and all the damage that came with the GW proc has been left in place.

As a person who loves Fizz thematically, I hate to see this shift happen to him. To be quite honest I wouldn't even mind if they would have just made him AD, just as long as his kits design left untouched. As a final note I want to make it clear I think that making his Q dodge-able was a step in the right direction and should have marinated a bit before throwing up all over Fizz.

AD Fizz has always been more balanced than AP Fizz because AD Fizz has never had the ability to kill you instantly like AP Fizz did up until 5.02.

I'm going to be completely honest with you. Fizz's burst has been hysterical for a long time now, despite every effort to reduce it or give it more counterplay. His burst has not been reduced all that much, and it's even higher if you land his ultimate.

You know why? Because much of Fizz's damage doesn't come from his kit, it comes from an item.

item 3057 item 3100

If you want real damage buffs AND you want Fizz to be balanced, then something has to be done about his synergy with Sheen/Lich Bane. Right now, his damage at all stages of the game is balanced around him having Lich Bane and being able to proc it with every QW combo. It's the reason his burst was so stupid pre 5.02. The simple reality is that Fizz can't receive any kind of straight buff until his Q no longer procs Lich Bane, or it'll be "lol I kill you in 2 shots without even using my ult" all over again.

You're a big fan of Fizz. Would you be willing to give up Lich Bane procs on Q in exchange for straight number buffs?

Talinis2/5/2015, 5:18:08 AM1 votes

AD fizz is pretty good, and he doesn't exactly need the AD scaling on E or R, as both have heavy utility for AD fizz. E can gap close/gap open, dodge and slow and add some good base magic damage. R adds good base magic damage, a ranged slow, a knock-up and a 20% damage buff. His Q and especially his autos with W make him very powerful in the damage department and sustain through life steal and a couple tank items with the dodge on his E and mobility from E + Q make him very survivable. AD fizz trashes match ups that near hard countered AP fizz. AD fizz has sustain in lane, has stronger autos for extended engages when his abilities are down (key during early game as he has extremely high cds early) and doesn't rely on the high mana cost ability E for any kind of damage. He has counter play since it takes a bit longer to kill a target, than an instant kill so he is not nearly as toxic as the old fizz in that he would just blow up a carry with one Q. However there is literally nothing a large majority of carries can do against bruiser fizz 1 v 1. He has the play ability in top to become the bruiser to carry his team through dominating his lane or become a yi with tank ability in the jungle. He is also very effective mid against some match ups, such as LB and Ahri as AD fizz can go hexdrinker for the MR/shield.

Charter2/5/2015, 2:44:34 AM1 votes

I still enjoy the new Fizz as an AP Assassin but, they could have shifted the damage in a slightly more rational manner. I believe the Q change was well needed as if it missed and still did damage it wouldn't make very much sense. I would rather have the Q do more base damage but not apply on hit effects (Excluding W). Although since it is an ability it should proc Lich Bane as normal.

I find this nerf/buff(however you look at it) to be less than what is needed to completely balance Fizz, but I think as stated above there were a few steps in the right direction and more than a few in the wrong. To add to the steps taken in the right direction I believe the removal of grievous wounds was a step in the right direction as now, situationally, I must considering removing some more damaging items for something like Morellonomicon, if I want to secure a kill with the new DoT. One step I found in the wrong direction was giving Ahri's damage buff to Fizz, if Riot want to make people unreliant on items they can't just leave the items actives "Hidden" within the game. If Riot found an interesting way to allow Fizz's burst to move from his ult to something focused more around the trident it would be much more kit related (Not saying get rid of the ult or change it completely, that is lore related and lore is important to some people). There are many different routes that Riot can take with this; if they change it again in the wrong way Fizz might be lost at sea forever never to be played again.

I find Fizz still plays the same but the new ult shouldn't be the way it is. There are plenty of champions who are way on the extremes of the spectrum of balance but since Fizz is somewhere in the limbo zone I think they should figure out how to work him into a balanced state, before working on those others... (Zed Akali KassadinDiana) For reference, although some need drastic measures taken.

I want more counterplay and strategy when playing Fizz, I don't want to feel like scum when playing him but I still want him to be fun. It won't be enjoyable if he is too weak or too strong.