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Utility - The Third Power

JLR·4/4/2015, 1:55:09 AM·5 votes·1,355 views

I originally wrote this towards the beginning of Season 4 and recently I began to think about it again nearly a year later.

Here is the original post: "With the Season 4 changes and the way Riot attempted to build Support kits into having the utility of their abilities scale higher with more AP/tankyness/etc. alot of individuals were nervous about high abuse cases where maybe a Janna could give an ADC 600 Attack Damage or the Lulu we have seen as of late in the LCS, even Soraka is making an appearance now. My answer to these concerns and end-all solution for this entire problem is this. Why doesn't Riot make Utility a stat? Change all supports ratios to scale off of Utility, make a whole line of Support items that give Utility points the same way Ability Power and Attack damage are given and make Supports scale off of those. Utility points do not necessarily have to be a damage stat but can result in better heals, better speed buffs/debuffs, better silences/stuns,etc. By making Utility a stat and creating a new line of items with Utility as a stat, you don't have to tone down Supports ratios or nerf AP items due to a Support abusing a utility stat with Ability power. These utility points can be placed onto Tanky items, Harrass items, Power items, Utility items, etc. and they cannot be abused by other lanes or classes because those champions do NOT scale off of the utility points that make the items worthwhile.

The perks of making Utility a stat:

It solves the current problem of Support characters being used in carry roles to gain a high amount of utility along with decent amounts of damage.

It saves tank items and AP items from being nerfed or altered due to any abuse situation brought about by a support character.

It adds more item variety for Support characters and players specifically."

I still feel that Utility could be a third power added into the game alongside Attack Damage and Ability Power. It is already a stat utilized on some champions such as Taric whom have abilities that scale with their tankyness. Supports seem to be in a fairly good place at the moment but I feel that making Utility a power of its own may allow for Riot to have another tool when it comes to balancing champions and reducing overlap from different concepts of champions where a Support style champ is building the same items as a full damage AP mage is building and thus may result in a nerf to an item that hurts one party while attempting to address problems arisen from another party. Is there a Rioter that would mind sharing an opinion on this?

9 Comments

67chrome4/4/2015, 7:12:44 AM3 votes

As a support I'm already scrambling to get a mediocre amount of stats with attributes that do have a clear and powerful effect, with things like HP, CDR, Mana, Armor, MR, and AP.

I don't want to balance out another stat with itemization.

Secondly - what exactly would the utility stat even Do?

Would it just increase Sona's stun duration and speed boost, would her Valor damage and heal be split into AP? Would Zyra's kit be split 50/50 between utility and AP scalings? Would Caitlyn's traps become a utility scaling thing?

Only 8 champions in LoL actually lack AP ratios in any sense, the vast majority of champions can power an abilitiy with ability power. All champions also happen to benefit from AD, AS, Crit, HP, Armor, MR, MS, HP/5, life steal, CDR, armor penetration, and more regardless of whether or not it's optimal, where truly manaless champions only make up ~20, and the biggest item stat divide is the melee/range split for Hurricane and Tiamat.

which I see as causing major issues concerning itemization and scaling. For a stat to be much of a stat in LoL - it needs to actually do something on the majority of champions in LoL.

Optimization isn't about being able to use a stat or not, it's about how well champions use a stat in LoL. That's how the MOBA itemization system works, and it's a core part of champion identity and balance.

Pushing itemization into an RPG mages can't use 2-handed weapons because reasons is something the MOBA genre gives the middle figure to in pretty much every case (barring Smite requirements for jungle items).

Also worth noting most supports have support as their secondary roll.

If AP stays as a more robust and flexible build path, it's very likely pure AP scaling champions like Annie Morgana Zyra could oust all utility-scaling champions by having more flexible build patterns when it comes to actually ramping up their power when they do get items.

Additionally - supports are specifically picked because they do well without items. They get the least gold of any class, even with clever support income items. Supports will also always have the lowest gold (on average) of any roll, because otherwise not CSing would be preferable to CSing (less work), and you'd remove a point of conflict from the game.

Even with more gold now, it's not at all uncommon to see a support run a build with 0 AP at all despite scaling with AP on everything in their build.

And supports are not late-game champions in the same sense Vayne and Tryndamere are late-game champions. Supports specifically don't rely on scaling with items. It's more the inverse Tryndamere pattern - Supports tend to be really powerful early-game, and they tend to carry over into late-game by being a massive asset in team-fights. Often why supports are good late game in team fights is because they have this thing, called utility, that's pretty solid Without Items, because it's un-reliant on item scaling.

I mean - the entire reason a champion is optimally used as a support is because:

  1. there strong early offsets the weak early of marksman, covering their buddie's weakness.
  2. being really powerful late-game despite having the least items, often this is done via a 2 second stun translating into 10 seconds of time your entire team gets to capitalize on (where it's only 2 when you're by yourself).

Furthermore - the scaling pattern of utility in-game runs against wanting items to bolster most utility effects.

As previously mentioned, a 2 second stun means 10 seconds of time to capitalize on the CC in a 5v5, where it's a meager 4 seconds in a 2v2 and only 2 seconds in a 1v1.

Without improving it's duration with ability ranks - CC already scales in power from "eh" in lane to "noooice" when it comes to late-game teamfights.

Add a scaling factor Riot has to balance game-wide performance over, and you wind up with garbage early, really really strong late if you amass a lot of gold (ie run in a farm lane).

Lastly - taking away all the ratios from supports and infusing their power in ability bases alone would make supports considerably more powerful, and much stronger for the reasons they're picked as a support in the first place.

You could actually build whatever item your team needed in this scenario, even stuff like Zeke's Herald. You'd also scale really, really well with CDR and mana.

TLDR: Utility scaling would hurt support champions much more than it would help them.

tifas left elbow4/4/2015, 2:22:56 AM3 votes

I'd get behind this.

TripNichols4/4/2015, 2:12:51 AM3 votes

Listen to the supports, Rito. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

A Utility stat would be a near-perfect answer, I think.

JLR4/4/2015, 3:20:25 AM2 votes

{quoted}

Making Utility a stat doesn't really solve the two major problems with Lulu mid - Utility as a stat serves mostly to solve a hypothetical end-game character that is super defensive and super offensive at the same time.

(Essentially, the character that Utility as a stat would solve is someone like Orianna or Diana - who potentially hyperscale and thus have really low shield ratios comparatively.)

The problem with Lulu mid is one of:

  1. How effective she becomes late game with regards to gold
  2. How efficiently / reliably she can acquire gold given where she goes.

The second portion of this is a problem with her primary lane pattern - a pattern she shares with Soraka in terms of just being silly to fight against in a mid lane or top lane scenario - due to a combination of high defensive tools and an ability that can wave clear.

However, adding Utility as a stat most likely wouldn't solve these issue - there just wouldn't be as much payoff in running Lulu / Soraka for the late game.

They'd still be just as crippling / nauseating to fight in the early game - especially since I'd suspect you'd have to make them even more early game focused now as more powerful utility typically doesn't matter in cases where you have no idea who might show up (Mid-Game).

In these cases where you have no idea who might participate - opting for more different types of utility is generally far stronger. Damage tends to be useful in most circumstances - hence it being a different type of utility.

(This is the why on the character who does everything tends to be a beast at mid-game and confusing late game. The mid-game rewards being able to handle or respond to anything. The late game rewards being able to do one thing really really really well.)

What a hard utility stat does do is basically gut the possibility of supports contributing in small skirmish scenarios or small fights because what Utility items do is destroy your ability to deal damage - not an unreasonable stance to take - but one that we're not willing to do because we believe that everyone should feel like they can contribute to fights in a wide variety of ways - not a single way hammered incredibly hard.

That's not to say there shouldn't be more different type of utility stats in general - I'm working on getting a new utility stat working right now - but a Utility Stat that is nothing more than 'different AP that is cheaper' doesn't add much overall, given the enormous cost of adding it, the maintenance cost of validating builds for rather questionable gains overall - especially since these characters would still be nauseating to fight in a solo lane.

That's not to say that there isn't ways of making it work - it's just that the work involved for the benefits gained is really rather lopsided to being way more work for very little benefit.

(Oh, interesting. I don't have a red tag on these beta forums - take all of this with a grain of salt until I get a red tag up.)

I just saw this post (12 months later >.>). I did not get to discuss this concept as thoroughly as I would have liked and I do not feel all options have been considered here. I don't necessarily agree with the notion that players can't contribute to fights with Utility ratios instead of damage. I can definitely envision scenarios where a stronger CC would be more worthwhile than a bit of extra damage in a small/early skirmish. If a player wants to contribute damage more than they do utility for their team than they should certainly have itemization for that (which is pretty available at this current state in the game) but itemization that allows someone to really focus on the Utility aspect of a champions kit such as their heals, stuns, silences, slows, etc. is not readily available at this moment. As of now, if a player wants to focus on utility they're reliant upon leveling up in the game to access improved abilities mid to late game and as far as itemization goes they tend to use overlapping items with Tanks/AP mid laners which CAN lead to abuse scenarios that are not necessarily healthy for the game. Adding a utility stat would allow Riot to have an extra lever to turn up and down when it comes to champions with utility aspects and adjusting their effectiveness without gutting Tank/AP items to indirectly address an issue brought up by a lack of options. I'm not looking for the Utility stat to be an AP path that is cheaper, I see Utility as being its own standalone entity. This allows utility champions to really maximize the potential of their kits by having items that are specifically designed to enhance utility abilities but not necessarily looking to provide a Lulu with Ability Power AND increased effectiveness of her utility abilities. I feel this would allow for higher ratios and numbers when it comes to utility abilities rather than tying in the effectiveness of their utility to their ability power/tankyness. I feel that you've made your stance clear on the topic though as you feel there is not enough benefits to warrant the effort nor do you feel this would be the correct direction to go but I didn't feel I had a fair chance to really discuss this and receive more detailed/informative feedback so that I may be able to provide Riot with feedback that fits with Riot's image of League in the future. Thanks for your time, I don't know if you'll read this since it is so late but I hope you have a blessed rest of the day and if you're interested, I'd still love the opportunity to discuss this topic or any other topics you felt like throwing out there.

Dangerous Man4/4/2015, 4:40:43 AM1 votes

YES PLEASE! 10 SECOND STUN RITO PLS

Reikken4/6/2015, 5:58:15 PM1 votes

I'll support this ONLY if Utility scaling isn't limited to supports. Like if Utility buffs up Udyr's bear stance and makes Ashe's slow stronger, then sure, I'm all for it. That would add a lot to build choice, allowing people to choose utility over power.

However, this is a huge change. Kind of impractical. I severely doubt Riot would even consider it.

IcyPepper4/6/2015, 6:04:11 PM1 votes

Eh... problem is, supports already build utility items rather than straight AP to even abuse their somewhat mediocre (not in all cases) ratios. This also limits their building options, like playing them in different roles (full AP Sona hurts like a mthrfkr). Utility is not a number, hence why supports are played as the 0 cs support in the first place, because they don't need high numbers like carry roles do. Making it a stat would go against that role's entire purpose, and would gate them from being played in different roles.