One of my discussion points on Ekko

Reposer·5/20/2016, 12:13:01 PM·6 votes·1,039 views

Yes, yes, everyone hates Ekko, because he was strong for a single patch. I get it, he's annoying, but he's never been in the limelight outside of the first patch or two he was released. There's a lot of talk about Ekko now, and ways that people believe he should be changed. I actually really liked the change where his Q utility scaled with AP, and I wrote up something long about it a bit ago. I was going to post it as a reply to a comment, but that's all I do, and I don't get heard too often, so I figured I'd try posting something rather. All below was initially a reply, and may at points reference the original poster, so a few things will seem odd in context.


Biggest issue with his AP build is that it's usually difficult to build full AP. I will say my favorite way to play Ekko is to play him full AP Assassin, because that's how he's meant to be played.

The issue with this is that unless you really know what you're doing, or get ahead in lane, you're at a huge risk in full AP, since Ekko's entire kit revolves getting right into the fray, and other than his ultimate, the only escape he has is a dash and movespeed, on top of the slowing he gets. This means you generally need resists of some form, be it HP or an Abyssal/Zhonya.

But the best full AP build you can have, for maximum burst potential and speed, would be item 3165 item 3285 item 3020 item 3100 item 3135 item 3089 and ignoring runes/masteries, with this build and an elixir, you hit 662 AP, which is certainly strong, but there's nothing in here that you can replace which would be a good fit for the build, not one thing. Lich Bane is an absolute necessity, giving loads of damage on his E (Full AP can oneshot squishies with passive + E/Lich combo lategame). Morello is a better item than RoA now, since RoA lost damage and mana, with a passive that makes it feel weaker to rush. It's the only one that may be able to replace Morello, but since it gives the same mana as Morello and the latter has a mana stacking passive, it's just worse in any way except that it gives health. Luden's is necessary for the insane movespeed, along with the Lich, and Luden's gives added burst for assassinations and extra damage in teamfights. Void staff and Rabadons are obvious, and any mage, especially an assassin one, need those items to deal maximum damage.

Here's the issue though, this build is NOT the most efficient build for overall play, because it lacks safety. If you can manage to pull off proper plays and get an edge early game (This is necessary for full AP success) then you can be powerful with this build. But since it relies on so much, you can't reliably use this build. And here's another issue with them nerfing bases. It's completely and wholly understandable to nerf the bases, but the problem with it is that it makes it even harder to get a lead early game, the more they do this. Ekko has a generally strong early game, if you know what you're doing, because if he doesn't at least get somewhat ahead, he struggles in the mid game, where he needs to be at his strongest.

All in all, yes they are technically buffing AP Ekko, but it ends up being more akin to that of a keep-up, rather than a buff. They're making him stronger in the late/midgame, while making him weaker early. But making him weaker early makes it harder to actually get to the point that he wants, which is why an AP buff is necessary, but generally isn't going to make him much stronger until the endgame. A good general idea for an Ekko build, with safety (assuming midlane), would be this: item 3001 item 3100 item 3027 item 3157 item 3135 and either item 3020 or item 3111, and item 3027 can be replaced by item 3165 or maybe even item 3030, but this is a build that maximizes safety over all else, whilst still getting damage. With an elixir, this build comes out at 360 AP, a substantial difference. And if you can't reliably get ahead, this is the kind of build you resort to, which weakens the AP buffs he's been getting.

I actually really liked the first iteration of his Q on the PBE, because at full AP build it had an extremely powerful slow, at 90%. Which sounds insane at first, but putting into thought everything else, would be one of the few things that makes full AP a viable build, and worth the huge risk it takes to get there. and it doesn't even get that until your final item, Rabadon's, so it's not until the extremely late where you get a slow that powerful.

Removing the slow on Ekko's passive will do nothing less than gut him. This is just the truth of the matter, if they did it alongside the Q change it may be acceptable, but his slow on the passive is one of the few things that helps keep him safe, admist all of the danger he has to put himself through to be effective.


TL;DR: Ekko needs the slows he has, and has high risk for reward. Removing reliable CC makes him weaker, and with all his bases getting lowered, it's harder for him to hit the ideal full AP mark. Go back to the first iteration of changes on PBE and it will be great for full AP.

13 Comments

Run It Back5/20/2016, 12:50:31 PM2 votes

No idea what Riot is thinking this change will accomplish. Tank Ekko always builds Iceborn Gaunlet so the slow will always be there with his Q on 40% CDR. The previos change that had his slow from Q scale from AP made much more sense to me. I just think this is going to ruin all types of Ekko playestyles. Ganks will be worse for jungle Ekko. Trading will be harder for lane Ekko since he is melee and can be abused from almost all the current mages. This is probably mostly going to hurt AP Ekko since he can get kited easily now without the slow. Sad days for Ekko boys*[slayer-jinx-unamused]*

Yabbakinz5/20/2016, 3:45:44 PM2 votes

I think that Tank Ekko definitely needs to be taken down a notch which is why I agreed with a lot of the changes that have been hitting the PBE now, but this last change was just a step in the wrong direction. Ekko's trading relies on the slow + movespeed combo he pulls of with his passive. You have to jump straight onto a person to hit this, seeing as Q will only apply two of the three stacks necessary in the early game and Q isn't at a low enough cooldown to proc the passive a third time. This means that you have to put yourself in danger to hit the passive, and the movespeed + slow combo gets you out safely by giving you the ability to dodge skillshots coming from your target. Removing the slow it more detrimental to AP Ekko than it is to tank, as tank Ekko doesn't care as much about getting smacked one more time because, well, hes a tank. By the time the CC has worn off he probably has his E and and his Q back up. If AP Ekko gets hit by CC after his combo than you lose the trade. This is why I think it was one of the most foolish balance changes Riot has made in a long time. Make the passive slow and maybe even movespeed scale with AP. That way if you are going glass cannon you can still get the slow that has been a designed feature of Ekko's kit from the beginning instead of gutting it entirely just to knock Tank Ekko down 2-3% winrate.

The fact that IBG isn't a target instead also blows my mind. It is annoying on any tank that can utilize AP/Mana, it's just Ekko's mobility that drives the broken-ness home. Just like in the case with Rageblade/Devourer, it is like they are balancing the champion instead of the item(s) that is clearly making them toxic and hard to counter. Look how well that went. They spent multiple patches nerfing both champions until they finally realized that it wasn't the champions but the item! Now Shyvana and Yi will be getting compensation buffs for the next few patches instead of them doing the right thing in the first place.

MunchCrunchLunch5/20/2016, 5:52:08 PM1 votes

i think tank ekko should still be an option to building the champion while they fix his assassin part next class rework.

if the pbe nerfs pass through am gonna build him like this most likely.

item 3001 item 3047 item 3068 item 3742 item 3065 item 3078

am losing a little of armor. not much though. i think it would still be a great build. the trinity force buffs will help

you gotta buff his base health and give him more burst if you want him to be played the assassin he is. hes melee. buff his base health to 2100ish like diana. also make his W shield last longer or something cuz its currently useless with ap builds because

numero uno it lasts 2.5 seconds

number 2 if you land a stun its useless cuz the stun lasts as long as the shield so wtf.

Deviant Khan5/20/2016, 7:15:55 PM1 votes

I've posted about this elsewhere, but more attention to it is good...

I think the idea of the Timewinder (Q) change is good, but too severe at lower ranks for Ekko's early game regardless of build. Instead of 40/55/70/85/100 I think it should be 60/70/80/90/100.

Also, the removal of the Z-Drive Resonance (passive) slow is only effective against bruiser/assassin Ekko. Tank Ekko builds IBG so still gets a slow. It would target tank Ekko much better if the passive speed boost scaled off of AP instead. This way tank Ekko would not run away very fast, and would be much more vulnerable to damage in trades as a consequence of not building AP. Meanwhile, bruiser/assassin Ekko would still get the speed boost to trade effectively.

The Chronobreak (R) change is good.

Mishli5/20/2016, 7:46:22 PM1 votes

I largely agree with OP, i'm a huge fan of AP ekko, at most i might build IBG if enemy team has a lot of AD, but flat ap ekko is nigh impossible, unless he's VERY ahead, he simply doesn't have the damage to successfully assassinate someone, so you have to go safety. I love that they added cdr to hourglass/abyssal, but now you're lacking so much ap that you simply can't put out enough damage and you're just a worse tank. i know swift boots are getting nerfed, but as it currently stands, going ap on ekko feels almost useless as he simply can't do enough on his own unless you get lucky and land a perfect stun in the middle of a fight and then land your ult ontop of it. It should feel rewarding to do that, but requiring perfection to go even feels like too much. for clarification, unless you land the 'perfect ekko play' he simply can't survive long enough for his ult to follow up and hit someone with, otherwise you're losing most of his damage just to get out.

As for the changes on the pbe, PLEASE DON"T REMOVE HIS PASSIVE SLOW, like someone else said, tank ekko gets iceborn anyway, and with enemies usually able to out WALK the slow field on his q, (on live) his passive is the only way to land his stun on someone without them being stupid.

I also largely agree with OP, i understand lowering some bases to hit tank ekko, but you could give ap ekko all the ratios in the world, but if you gut his bases so much he can't get ahead in lane/survive to build the ap, he's still gonna have to go tank just to do anything. they're already lowering the damage on his q farther, which means it's gonna be even harder to farm when people harass you than it already is