Questions Regarding the Gangplank Rework

ItemsGuy·7/9/2015, 7:53:02 PM·3 votes·1,962 views

So, I've never been a huge fan of Gangplank--he's always fluctuated between being a slightly better Nunu and a slightly worse Nunu, and his kit is riddled with the kind of flaws that plagued many of League's older kits. When the rework hit the PBE, I think I tested it for a solid 6 hours, then another 5 hours the next day, and I've come back with mixed feelings. It's undoubtedly an improvement over old GP--new and unique areas of mastery, some thematic gameplay adjustments, an attempt to embrace what people liked about playing him and give him his own niche in the roster, proper counterplay beyond "don't be in range of Parrrley ever," etc. This isn't a thread about those things, however. This is a thread about the things that make me want to eat my computer.

(I'm aware that this might be more at home on the PBE boards, but considering this is more of a design thing and less of a bug report, this part of the boards seems more appropriate).

The questions I have for the designers behind this rework fall into two general categories:

1- What's up with his scaling?

2- What's the core and identity of this kit?

Let's start with the first: What's up with his scaling? He has 3 damage types (true damage on Innate, magic damage on ult, physical damage on everything else) and two different scaling stats (AD on his Innate, Q, and for all intents and purposes, his E--I'll go back on this in a bit, and AP on his W and ult). Looking at his theming (swashbuckling pirate) and main gameplay (stacking physical damage bonuses with Q and E for infrequent but explosive trades), it should be pretty clear which of these damage/scaling types makes no sense. Why does GP have an AP-scaling heal? Why does his ult--the upgrading of which is now a pretty big part of GP's new kit--do damage that his penetration and primary scaling type does not benefit from? If the explanation is "Well, we wanted a flexible build path for him outside of what is typical for his role because we think that adds meaningful depth to the game beyond 'do I want to be mitigated by armor or MR' somehow," then how would AP scaling change his gameplay in any meaningful way?

Even if the powder kegs benefited from Lich Bane (which they don't) or if Parrrley procced Luden's Echo (which it doesn't), Gangplank would still play exactly the same way--he'd still want to skirmish, he'd still want to chain and explode his barrels, he'd still want to catch as many people as possible in his ult for as long as possible--except now you'd have to build MR against him instead of armor.

(By the way, right now, there is no reason to commit to any sort of AP build on him--due to the lack of item compatibility mentioned above, Gangplank does considerably less damage, both burst and DPS, as AP compared to AD, all for a slightly stronger heal and an ult that does a bit more damage but not really.)

Then there's the next question: What's the core and identity of this kit? This new Gangplank has a lot of cool things, but unfortunately, they seem like they each belong on a different kit. You've got a fun "shoot the barrel" minigame that allows Gangplank to apply his melee attack damage from a potentially considerable and safe distance (even greater if using Parrrley), a super powerful skirmishing melee attack that allows Gangplank to throw in a quick and dirty attack and run out before his opponent has a chance to fight back, what is essentially a global utility ult (since the damage is negligible) that can be upgraded with a Nasus-style last-hitting minigame, and a low-health heal/cleanse that can get him out of extremely sticky situations, except...

...Trial by Fire's DoT/speed buff that is meant to define Gangplank's skirmishing playstyle doesn't apply to Parrrley or Powder Keg (which are both meant to be stackable extensions of Gangplank's melee capabilities), and while igniting a Powder Keg refreshes Trial by Fire's on-hit effect, this interaction sticks out like a sore thumb within Powder Keg's primary gameplay (you're rewarded for being underhanded and nailing an opponent from a very safe distance by...an effect that can only be benefited from by trudging into melee range and landing a basic attack) and pushes PK's use case towards "keep hitting somebody and explode barrels behind them/yourself to keep refreshing the true damage effect". Remove Scurvy's clutch heal and cleanse effects also clashes with the barrel-chaining minigame, as its ideal place is on a kit that encourages constant balls-to-the-wall risk-taking rather than being underhanded and keeping your engagements as unfair as possible. Cannon Barrage, aside from the weird and bad AP scaling/magic damage, doesn't fit in with the underhanded, skirmish-based, preparation-based nature of the new apparent core of his kit.

While a kit entirely based around the sort of gameplay created by Parrrley and Powder Keg could easily find its niche as that sort of preparation-based skirmishing carry/fighter character, his current abilities pull him in so many directions that it's difficult to really appreciate or explore or revel in any of those directions. We don't have the dirty-fighting sea dog, or the charge-into-the-fray swashbuckler, or the seemingly omnipresent pirate king with his ships and canons. We have Gangplank, the "does a bunch of things we've seen pirates do in movies" champion.

I will probably enjoy messing around with him, but I really wish this rework was executed a bit more elegantly. I know there were a lot of things that were iconic about old Gangplank by virtue of existing on his kit for a long time, but I'd almost rather lose some of them in favor of focusing on one for the sake of a more holistic kit.

**TL;DR- Why does Gangplank have three damage types and two conflicting scaling types? Why does his kit contradict and trip over itself so much? What is he meant to be as a playable character in a MOBA? **

24 Comments

EffectFX7/9/2015, 10:36:01 PM3 votes

Uhhh... plenty of AD champions have mixed damage types and scaling on utility based abilities. Just because a champion has some kind of AP scaling or deals some magic damage doesn't mean that champion doesn't primarily focus on physical damage/attack damage.

Aatrox Ashe Corki Ezreal Fiora Gnar Irelia JarvanIV Jax Jayce JinxHecarim LeeSin Lucian MasterYi Nasus Nocturne Poppy Quinn Renekton Shaco Rengar Shyvana Skarner Trundle Tryndamere Udyr Varus Vi MonkeyKing XinZhao Yasuo

Zarxis7/10/2015, 2:02:44 PM2 votes

On the AP-ratios-on-AD-champions topic: some AP ratio should be present for the sake of Sheen and hybrid items, but I do agree that it is generally an outdated practice to have major AP ratios on AD champions. However, older champions are balanced around those ratios, meaning a complete removal of any of those ratios would necessitate more tweaking. Not to mention the loss of endearing (albeit usually ineffective) off-builds (ex: AP Gangplank) that would be lost.

On Gangplank: The main issues I have with Gangplank's new kit are how he's losing a lot of his passive's value + the loss of his E's free stats. The fact that Gangplank can no longer naturally slow with his Q (or even apply the DoT) is terrible because Gangplank is so heavily focused around his Q's ability to apply so many effects. The new E will somewhat negate the evils of the new passive, but it brings problems of its own. Where did Gangplank's extra movement speed go (one of my favorite things about current GP is that you can skip boots if you have %movement speed in your runes/masteries/items)? What about the extra AD? The loss of these stats will encourage Gangplank to avoid direct melee combat even more than ever, but his new [crippled] passive forces him to enter melee range to get any benefit from it. The barrels look fun and will definitely require some "mastery," but they're a glaring weakness due to how easily they can be removed (and used as supplemental gold), their replacing Gangplank's old E stats, and the fact that they encourage Gangplank to enter melee even more because of the passive-refreshing effect. The speed-boost on being detonated by Gangplank will help somewhat, but I'd rather have passive MS. Another issue— Gangplank's Q still has a long cast time in addition to the time it takes the projectile to reach its target; Gangplank will struggle to shoot his own powder kegs because his opponents can autoattack faster than he can Q.

The ultimate upgrades combined with the new E are a big middle finger to anyone who plays support Gangplank. The powder kegs will be free-farm for the opposing laners because of Gangplank's slow Q and the enemy ADC's range. He'll be lucky to ever Q a keg faster than Soraka can hit it with an autoattack. Bush control is the only way to keep the kegs alive, but a single trinket ward ruins that. I'll have to find out whether the kegs give significant vision or not + how many can be present at once (looks to be 3).

I'd be fine with losing most of the remains of AP Gangplank at this point (the Lich Bane nerf and the removal of DFG were crippling to him) in order to help Gangplank elsewhere, but I doubt that's a popular opinion. Whatever Riot decides to do, I hope they don't remove the AP ratios entirely (Gangplank loves Trinity Force, and his current versatility is remarkable).

Gangplank's mixed damage is a blessing and a curse. It makes it difficult to itemize well against him, but hybrid damage is less amazing in the modern meta because people tend to build mixed resistances (but hybrid-damage-dealers almost never build both armor penetration and magic penetration). It's worth keeping, in my opinion. I do wish that Riot would scrap the new true damage on his passive and change it back to magical in exchange for allowing his Q to apply it again (even if it does have a speed boost instead of a slow).