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Cho'gath Nerf?

2VHWu4GBa6·11/20/2014, 2:32:26 AM·54 votes·9,337 views

80 seconds cooldown on ult? really?... 50% off for using it on creeps? NOT worth it

Please don't do this to the 5 people who actually play Chogath ... we haven't done anything to deserve this kind of punishment.

Also:

[BUG Gameplay] Cho'gath rupture gives no sight in live patch.

In patches before 4.16, Cho'gath's Rupture (His Q) Gave sight of an area about the same as Lux Lucient Singularity (Her E), although Chogath rupture only gave sight for about a second, while Lux E gave sight for as long as the spell was allowed to continue. Now it doesn't.

[(http://youtu.be/3S0OQcLBoWM)]

This is a video of multiple examples of Rupture sight pre-patch and post-patch

^^ This is still not fixed btw ^^

When I originally posted this, I was extremely upset, but now that I see the outcry from those of us who play cho I'm comforted. Some of us enjoy having an active play style. Not everyone likes to just afk farm their lane because they have to go top with X champion. Some champions kits were originally designed so that this is the only chance they have. Cho is not such a champion, he's the most balanced champion there is at the moment. He can Jungle, Top, Mid, or support. He can AP carry, Tank, or play as a bruiser. He's the epitome of player freedom and versatility, and it's this that makes me love him as a champion. This change riot is trying to make to this champion, is a slap in the face to everything diversity and player choice and ingenuity stands for.

Riot, you say you want to diversify game play options and allow players choices. You tell us you want us to have more dynamic, strategic game play. Then you turn right around and make changes that force us into specific roles, and specific functions that offer players little option and slowly remove strategic thinking and complex unique playstyles with changes like this. Riot, your new attitude and repressive/restrictive changes to champions like this has been rejected by the player base.

You cannot justify this unwanted, unhelpful, unimaginative change to Chogath . Abaxial stated the specifics of the champion and why this change is aweful, better than I could, and he has the ranked stats, and the experience with this champion that I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that none of you who work at riot can even come close to claiming to understand.

Now, Riot, you choose what kind of company you are going to be in reality. You claim constantly to listen to the competitive player base, and strive to make the game fun for everyone. Here, right in front of you, the players have spoken. Will you choose to be the company that does what the players know is best? Or will you choose to be the company that does whatever it wants regardless of what makes your consumers happy?

77 Comments

Abaxial11/20/2014, 4:31:46 AM34 votes

Hi.

I'm Abaxial, former Diamond 1 Cho'Gath main and author of this highly-rated guide on SoloMid http://www.solomid.net/guide/view/120517-chogath-build-guide-jungle-fighter-by-jiggaflip

This is a severe nerf. It might seem like a buff to people that don't play this champion frequently and imagine Cho'Gath as a passive laner. That is a false assumption. Cho'Gath is not Mundo or Maokai and has kill potential against essentially all champions at some point during the lane phase. This would ruin that, along with certain late-game scenarios.

The nerf makes attempting to kill your lane opponent too large a risk. If you fail, or even if you kill them but don't get a stack (several scenarios), your punishment is harsh. No other champion has this problem. When Feast doesn't get a stack and is on cooldown for a long time it's almost as if Cho'Gath is temporarily unable to gain experience. Cho'Gath is tuned around having stacks in addition to his levels and items to survive.

Let's say you fail an all-in at level 6 or 7, recall, and walk back. With this system, you are now down 180 health (an opportunity cost of 480 gold). One for the minion you'd Feast in lane, and then one for the jungle monster you could kill on the way. Why would I ever try to fight my lane opponent now? There's no point when just farming is easier and safer. I don't want Cho'Gath to be forced into being like Maokai or the old Shyvana; farm passively until you can win trades by right-clicking and hitting all your buttons (or never out-trade and merely wait for team to carry).

As it is, a 60-second cooldown for failed kill-attempts is unforgiving (90 health or 240 gold opportunity cost), but mostly fair since it's shorter than that of many other top laners. 80 seconds is still a tiny bit shorter than most, but rapidly approaches irrelevance because now I have little chance of sneaking a Feast in before their ultimate is back up. It might seem the same (80fail, 40minion vs 60fail, 60minion) but in practice it's not at all. I Feast jungle monsters on the way to lane to hide my cooldown. If I can't do that and have to eat a lane minion instead (due to the higher cooldown) it cedes tons of lane pressure.

I don't want to use this phrase too much, but no other champion has to ult minions and randomly give away their kill potential during lane phase. 40 seconds, 60 seconds, it's not a buff because it doesn't matter - you Feast something with an even minion wave against a bruiser and they'll immediately jump you. I don't mind that with the current system because at least I can play for kills.

I see some people claiming that this isn't so bad with some cooldown reduction. False. Cho'Gath is going to have the hardest time collecting stacks during laning phase between levels 6-9. At this point you're very unlikely to have any cooldown reduction. Getting stacks later in the game isn't so bad.

Speaking of the late game, this is a buff if you die and are still winning or get to turtle while losing. It is however a nerf if you die and your team is picking fights immediately after (i.e. rushing to Baron with Homeguard, or just a scrappy game in general). If your team decides or has to fight right when you come up, then you're almost certainly going to be using Feast during that fight. You're then probably going to incur the full 80 second (minus whatever CDR) penalty because of something that's largely out of your control at that point. If your team really wants to try and scrap out a comeback through skirmishes or instead of turtling then you are now a liability, and a bigger one than you used to be. Cho'Gath will only have the option of turtling when behind (instead of having skirmishing as an alternative), which is less interesting gameplay.

That's my two cents. I'm not completely close-minded towards changes to Cho'Gath, but this nerf is unwarranted and could very well ruin my play style.

Xypey11/20/2014, 2:37:41 AM8 votes

Maybe they did look at you and said "see how well this guy does with cho, we gotta nerf that"

Pyrite Hank11/20/2014, 2:33:53 AM6 votes

I feel you, i used to play cho myself, but trust me, nothing anyone could ever do could show riot their limitless stupidity

CapnChoGath11/20/2014, 8:44:35 PM5 votes

Hey, I just wanted to leave a comment here. I think that I would like this change if the cooldown was changed to 80/70/60

PineappleSlushie11/20/2014, 10:38:07 AM4 votes

This makes me so sad... I love my cho gath :(

He isn't even used in the pro play and doesn't get much play otherwise so I really don't understand this

Sooko11/20/2014, 10:49:02 PM3 votes

A nerf to a tank?! An immobile tank?! Who will soon have to deal with Kalista top lane?! GJ RITO

MattAkhavan11/20/2014, 8:27:50 AM3 votes

I actually think this is probably going to be a buff to Cho. 50% CDR and mana refund. Cho loses 80% of his pressure without his ultimate which only hurts if you don't kill a minion or a champion. because if you kill a champion you won't need your ult for a while anyways. If you use it on a creep to get your stacks up it'll be up way sooner than before.

Government111/20/2014, 11:46:59 AM3 votes

This really hurts Cho's laning phase Riot for us who don't like to play passive. It really lowers Cho's kill pressure without taking huge risks that other champs don't have.

Muted Summoner11/20/2014, 1:09:21 PM3 votes

they nerf chogath but not nunu or pantheon who can solo the new "weak" dragon at lv 3.

PentaJump11/20/2014, 2:12:02 PM3 votes

This is meant to be a Cho'gath Jungle buff. I guess RIOT decided that Cho'Gath doesn't belong in lane. As an ex-AP Trist player, I send my regards.

Except your case is even more stupid because Cho'Gath was originally a laner and there's not really anything toxic about it.

Darth Pixy Misa11/26/2014, 4:16:38 AM2 votes

I don't get these nerfs, Cho got no time in LCS. If you are going to nerf Feast at least provide compensation, everyone says feast is unfair because death is punished so hard. For Mejai's on death you lose a third of your stacks, Cho loses half his stacks on death.

For a long time we have asked Riot to buff Cho: To make the cap on the feast stacks larger, and to reduce the death penalty. To boost Cho's MS To fix Cho's hit box on q. To give Cho some mechanic to help with the fact that when most champs see a Giant Cho and their first reaction is "kill it with fire" and focus Cho.

acepil0t11/20/2014, 3:45:32 AM2 votes

But I need my minute-ly Teemo feasting :(. Honestly though I think it's kinda deserved, I play him jungle a lot and I feel it is kinda OP how I get my ult back up 40 seconds after a gank. (Is it wierd that I play him mid and jungle more than top lane?)

Meep Man11/20/2014, 2:43:49 AM2 votes

Well, when you compare Cho'Gath's ultimate to other ultimates, it is STUPIDLY GOOD! Instant true damage nuke with scaling that also gives you bonus health if you kill them. Using your ultimate on a minion IS worth it if you are behind because sometimes you can't kill the enemy to get health and you have to kill minions and monsters.

Fried Noob11/20/2014, 5:21:00 AM2 votes

I imagine it's in response to the new jungle and concerns about him being too strong in it. That said, it's still a dumb nerf.

ZzEslIolZQ11/20/2014, 11:57:21 PM2 votes

Like it's so random. They do nothing for Cho for 2 years then all of a sudden BAM here, have a nerf. Are you fucking for real right now. Inb4 they nerf Malz and buff Syndra next patch as well.

Minrog11/20/2014, 4:35:15 PM2 votes

I just don't get it. I see Rengar, Lee Sin, Khaz'ix (spling), Elise, and Jarvan IV as the pick/ban in nearly every LCS game. Riot makes posts about how retarded they are in the jungle when commentating. Look at patch notes, find Warwick/Cho'Gath/Amumu nerfs.

I'm disappointed but I hope somebody at Riot HQ (that isn't a Lee Sin main) listens to you guys. Upvoted.

BLU Medic11/26/2014, 12:47:27 PM1 votes

Oh god, please, no. Alright, this isn't a nerf to Jungle Cho'Gath, but Cho'Gath is good in lane too and now he'll no longer have any reliable damage for champions, forcing him to use it on minions/neutral monsters.

Sightless6611/26/2014, 3:38:00 PM1 votes

I never said I was worried about knowing if the ult would kill a minion. I have no idea where you are getting that from.

You are right with the second point (although you do exaggerate the strength of his trading) but the problem is, that is what cho is balanced around. He trades very well with his ult up but is punished massively for using it to farm. Adding more punishment for using his ult on his enemy is a nerf.

If they choose to change more things about him in the future, it might be better. For now, there is no evidence of that happening, and no changes listed. Until further notice, landing cho has only been nerfed.

Also, this is not strategic diversity. Thst term applies to variety in overall options, such as one champion being able to build different jungle items. This could be considered an increase in counterplay , but it is not great for that either because the same intagib threat remains.

CaptnJakSparrow12/2/2014, 6:07:30 AM1 votes

I am sad . . .

ImHerVoice12/8/2014, 1:43:59 AM1 votes

riots gutting all the champs with objective control. So we can't do level 6-4 dragons anymore rofl I knew they'd nerf cho. losers only care about esports rofl

Toa of Death12/8/2014, 1:40:29 AM1 votes

I've been maining cho since I got him 2 years ago. Haven't had a single complaint other than Q being hard to land at first. Never thought he needed a nerf to anything but that buff to increase his ult range to match his attack range was nice. but an 80 sec CD for it? that's just wrong. If they go through with this, I'm going to miss the days of killing my lane opponents with my ult and it's ready again by the time they get back and I just ult them again and they're like "but you just used your ult." I wonder though, since cho still hasn't received a TU like every other pre-2013 champ does that mean they're planning a VU?

OmegaKraid11/21/2014, 5:50:24 AM1 votes

As someone who played a lot of Cho, at first I thought it was a nerf. Then I was told by my friends it's a good change. Then the more I think about it, the more I'm on the fence about the whole entire thing. I like the idea of it. However it does promote Cho'gath to become more passive. To me, that's fine because that's my playstyle in lane. I'm usually best on super passive laners.

Now as a Jungle main, I like the change also. But it really is a super painful change to actually dueling as Cho'gath. With full CDR as well, the cooldown on a Feast that kills a minion is 4 seconds shorter than it would be currently. (Though I haven't played 40% CDR Cho'gath since Season 2. Will probably change this season with all the items I'm loving right now.)

So far I've mentioned why I like the change as a Jungler and as a passive laner. However... 20 extra seconds on that cooldown still irks me. If I use it on a champion, it's a downright nerf and I'm not sure anyone at the time has been complaining about Cho'gath being a problem in the game. I understand if they want to do this change, they have to give something up.

If they feel inclined to do this change, I hope at least Riot does what CapnChoGath said: Change Cooldown to 80/70/60. If Riot and other people for whatever reason that Feast is oppressive in lane, well I can't really say anything about that. I've not laned with Cho in the longest of time and I can't really speak for that experience. (Though I've heard no complaints about it.) However it does solve a bigger issue which I would be more than happy for that a 'compensation nerf' of 20 extra seconds at level 1 would do: Be able to feast more before team fights.

To me though it feels like they're trying to fix something right now that isn't really broken.

Oh and if 1 800 Cho Gath disagrees with my view and wants to point out this is a level 18 account with very little games. Don't bother. I just haven't bothered to learn how to post on my proper (EUW) account on these forums and only posting on my NA Smurf which I use to play with friends. However those are my thoughts.

Fatal Revelation11/21/2014, 6:07:23 AM1 votes

When I read about the Nerf to lane Cho I face-palmed, WHY! there is No reason to do this At all, Oh Jungle Cho buff OK but Cho'Gaths Ganks are subpar at best cuz you need to 100% land your Q to Gank or have Insane movement speed with (Homeguards or something) his Clear isn't that good ether, I like playing AP bruiser / Tank Cho'Gath (Countless Games) doing something like this too Cho is insane.

His Q is unreliable and easily dodged because of a 100% AP ratio (that shouldn't be there in the first place on a tank champ) His W has this STUPID casting time of 1.5 (I believe) so you cant Catch a persons flash or stop someone from escaping
His E is put on a pedestal and has become one for his better abilities, so he shortly became a champ to just basic attack to do damage His R is good but Just Dieing ONCE puts you behind and will have to start stealing creeps or jungle monsters to catch up its probably the only Champion that you have to try to stay alive for the ENTIRE GAME so you don't lose your precious stacks that you NEED to survive

These thing are not fixed there where here for 2 years sense

Cho'Gath has the potential to become one of the Best tanks in the game if Riot just gave him a chance a tank dont need a passive that heal him up insanely or a Instant undodgeable E that also roots and does Health damage along with an AoE Ult that reduce damage to anyone inside.

He was Made for lane Why do this?

Salganos11/22/2014, 2:10:34 AM1 votes

[a consistently self-detaching reply to Orangesilk]

Should we nerf Poppy because she's too powerful if you fail to harass her during lane?

Poppy needs a bloody rework. :p

Anyhow, I'm not saying your view is wrong, I'm just speculating on the possible reasoning for it, based on my experiences playing Cho'gath. If that speculation is accurate, I still think the change is still a rather nasty and mostly undeserved nerf in most cases.

Killer X 1211/26/2014, 12:54:38 AM1 votes

maybe they wanted to turn him into a jungler lol

Smoot11/26/2014, 3:51:51 AM1 votes

Why did you post this thread here? What makes you think that a Rioter will visit these forums? This isn't Reddit, and to top it off you didn't praise them for everything they do, meaning that even in the very slight chance of one reading this, they won't respond.

To go back on topic however, this change literally kills Cho'gath. Riot changed the jungle for Season 5, which is fine. No problem. We all wanted something to change there, regardless of the changes most of us are moderately happy with them. BUT DON'T NERF EVERY CHAMPION YOU PERCEIVE TO BE OVERPOWERED BASED OFF OF A CHANGE THAT IS BARELY A MONTH OLD AND HAS LITTLE TIME TO TEST. THIS CHAMPION HAS NUMEROUS LANE SYNERGIES AND RIOT COMPLETELY THREW THAT OUT THE WINDOW BECAUSE THEY CHANGED A FEW THINGS ABOUT THE JUNGLE. WHERE THE BLOODY EVER LOVING FUCK DID YOUR DESIGN OVERSIGHT TEAM GO?