Should Items be hurtful to its owner in League?

AJungleOutThere·Oct 12, 2014·5 votes·1,050 views

So far, until Soraka's rework, any item you could buy had a positive or netural influence.

Sure some items are inefficient on some champions ( who would buy AP on ? ) but it did not hurt them in any way, besides the opportunity cost of buying a more appropriate item.

With Soraka's Astral Infusion, this rule is now broken with health items. Due to the max health cost, once the bonus health provided by the item is gone, Soraka still has to pay a higher HP cost than if she had not this item.

This design decision is an outstanding deviation from standard item behavior. It would not be that critical if it was reserved to a recent high-cost champion, that only plaaters with some game experience can pick up. The thing is Soraka is one of the 450 IP champion which makes her one of the first champion can buy and pick up.

I do undesrtand the origin and the necessity of the health cost on Soraka though.

The solution for this would be to replace "spends x% max health" by " spends x% current health or x% base health, whichever is higher"

19 Comments

ZielmannOct 12, 20144 votes

I think this view on the spell cost is misleading. People who look at it this way are suddenly going to think 'well, I shouldn't buy any extra HP on her', but that's not an accurate statement. Sure, just stacking HP probably isn't the best idea (but it really isn't on most champions anyhow). But picking up incidental HP on certain items isn't inherently bad, and doesn't 'hurt' her. So like, Soraka shouldn't feel bad about getting sightstone and/or locket, just because they have some HP.

Here's why I don't like the logic. Sure, the raw quantity of HP Soraka will spend to heal an ally will go up. But she'll still have more HP after healing. Example: Soraka with 1000 HP vs. Soraka with 1400 HP (buying a Ruby Sightstone), casting a few successive heals (showing HP after heal) First heal: 900 HP vs. 1260 HP Second heal: 800 HP vs. 1120 HP Third heal: 700 HP vs. 980 HP Fourth heal: 600 HP vs. 840 HP

Bottom Line: Buying HP still adds to Soraka's survivability.

She may not benefit from it quite as much as other champions would, but it is by no means 'hurting' her to get some extra HP. And the above scenario ignores both her HP regen (arguably a very strong stat on the new Soraka), and the heal she gets from Starcall. Speaking of the heal from Starcall, it is increased by the amount of health that Soraka is missing, so buying HP effectively increases the amount she gets back from landing Starcall as well.

I agree that buying items should never inherently hurt a champion. That's silly. But it's also silly to think that buying HP is hurting Soraka.

ceaselessphantomOct 12, 20141 votes

Speaking of the heal from Starcall, it is increased by the amount of health that Soraka is missing, so buying HP effectively increases the amount she gets back from landing Starcall as well.

It is increased by a percentage of its amount based off the percent of health missing. Her starcall is the main reason stacking health on her is bad. A percentage health cost alone still gives you the exact same effective health and is irrelevant outside of health regen. (Which is such a low valued stat is not that important to consider.) it just becomes relevant because there is a somewhat static heal added to the mix.

ZielmannOct 12, 20141 votes

I've only played the new Soraka once in ARAM, so I wasn't totally paying attention to exactly how she worked in that sense. That, and I had only looked at the champion info here on League's website, which apparently doesn't give very complete information. All it says is that it's increased based on how much health she's missing. I shouldn't have to go to an outside site to get that kind of detailed info for a champion's abilities. But that's a totally different argument...

So, okay. The Starcall heal doesn't synergize as well with added HP. But this still doesn't mean buying HP hurts Soraka at all. She is still gaining survivability from HP. I agree that she doesn't benefit from flat HP as much as other champions, but it is not a bad stat on her, and it definitely is not hurting her to pick some up.

ceaselessphantomOct 12, 20141 votes

So, okay. The Starcall heal doesn't synergize as well with added HP. But this still doesn't mean buying HP hurts Soraka at all. She is still gaining survivability from HP. I agree that she doesn't benefit from flat HP as much as other champions, but it is not a bad stat on her, and it definitely is not hurting her to pick some up.

As I said before. Flat (forgot that term) heals naturally do not synergize with buying health. The issue is she has a percentage decrease to go with that. Yes if you heal less than 11 times it will in no way be harmful. At 10 it becomes wasted. and every time you get closer and closer to 10 it becomes less efficient than it normally is when you have a heal. (This is all assuming you managed to heal it all off with q.) If you heal even 6 times the value of bonus health is already greatly lost.

That is why it is bad to build health on her. Not because it harms her. But because its efficiency on her is pathetic.

Edit I should also mention this assumes you do not get healed by q when you are at full health.

ZielmannOct 12, 20141 votes

Her heal to allies is a flat heal, too. So should they not buy any HP at all? Or should Soraka just not bother healing the tank if they're the one being focused?

Buying HP is not 'hurting' Soraka. Buying HP is not 'bad' on Soraka. While her kit makes it a little less useful on her than most champions, HP does add to her survivability. And she can't do anything if she's dead.

ceaselessphantomOct 12, 20141 votes

Her heal to allies is a flat heal, too. So should they not buy any HP at all?

That is very irrelevant to her own durability.

Or should Soraka just not bother healing the tank if they're the one being focused?

Tanks have more resistances making the health in raw numbers more effective than them than on squishes. Squishes of course should also be healed if they are low to make it less likely for them to get bursted.

Buying HP is not 'hurting' Soraka. Buying HP is not 'bad' on Soraka. While her kit makes it a little less useful on her than most champions, HP does add to her survivability. And she can't do anything if she's dead.

I just explained that it was not hurting her. It is inefficient. Because there is a factor completely unrelated to the cost on her max health.

Normally when you have a heal it goes like this. You gain like say 100 health. You could also buy 100 health. However that 100 health is reduced every time you heal an ally. The heal on her q is completely unaffected by that cost because the cost if based off max health. Where as if you buy resistances they hold the same effectiveness regardless of how many times you heal. Also if you buy ability power not only is the heal increased but you get more out of paying a cost.

The only way health is better on her than ability power is if even after getting resistances you are getting blown up before you can use heal much.

Edit and resistances remain good on her no matter what. (While unless withstanding damage is not your priority.)

Edit Actually that last bit should be clarified. Resistances are never bad on her. Ability power can often be better than them though since you get scaling off of it from two sources.

ProfDrDeathOct 12, 20143 votes

Are you ~~stupid~~ sure?

There are champions with %-based HP costs other than Soraka - Aatrox DrMundo Zac Vladimir . And those are not hurt by it, either.

The %-max HP cost makes HP items kind of a double-edged deal for her, true. However, HP is still a useful stat to increase her durability. And that type of cost is there to prevent Soraka from building hypertanky (which is a distinct anti-pattern: If there's a healer that erases all damage dealt, your first concern should be to get rid of that character with alacrity - which is kind of a lose/lose choice if said healer is tanky).

AJungleOutThereOct 12, 20142 votes

These champions have a % **current ** HP cost. Not a % **max **HP cost.

Of course, I can't pretend having a high starting HP pool hurts. WHat irks me is that once the bonus health provided by the items is gone, Soraka is actually worse off for her heal than if she did not have them in the first place.

The %-max HP cost makes HP items kind of a double-edged deal for her, true

That is a first in League, and I think it's a bad idea on a game design point of view.

This is not a "plz buff Soraka" thread. I've grieved for a grand total of two games her previous kit. I'm doing fine with her current incarnation. That's not the point.

ProfDrDeathOct 12, 20141 votes

Sorry about the stupid comment. Was a little tired/annoyed at that point.

Why is bad from a design point of view? It is essentially a lever that allows for a powerful heal, and one that circumvents the problem you'd have with a flat cost - namely, with said flat cost, the optimal strategy for mitigating the heals cost would be to have more HP. Which is exactly what Riot doesn't want - a powerful healer with enough tankiness to make focusing him or her a lose/lose choice. Aka, old Soraka.

AJungleOutThereOct 13, 20141 votes

from my opening message :

The solution for this would be to replace "spends x% max health" by " spends x% current health or x% base health, whichever is higher"

emphasis added.

Vesh tried to give her a pure %current HP cost but he noticed that the HP cost became insignificant under 40%-50% base HP. The solution I propose keeps the cost significant.

Also, what made old Soraka hard to shot down is that her heal also gave a huge armor bonus, which is now gone. She is not that tanky anymore.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cCHIln9ZhR-POSi4jfcryteF_SIofBv1wZku7juF1r8/edit?usp=sharing

Here is the how Soraka HP would evolve with the system I propose.

DicersonOct 12, 20143 votes

I voted yes before reading the comments T.T

Okay, so i did some math and found this. Unless you go ham on stacking HP, the heal will always increase the total health gain of the team. Unless you pass (2400 + 600 per 100 AP) HP, the heal will always heal for more HP than you lost, granted, that amount decreases with more Hp, but if a soraka has 3000 HP and no ap at all, they're playing soraka wrong. And like Zielman said, regardless of that fact a soraka with more health will still be more durable than one with less.

tl;dr Really? You couldn't read that? Oh Well, HP only hurts soraka if you're an idiot.

FrostbuttOct 13, 20142 votes

i'm not going to read through all the replies, so if someone suggested it already, then cool.

Soraka should have a base HP cost and a %currentHP cost (5%?). It'll prevent spamming but it won't kill her.

AJungleOutThereOct 13, 20141 votes

This would work too.

BenignOmniscientOct 12, 20141 votes

ceaselessphantomOct 12, 20141 votes

Soraka does not get penalized for health just because of the max health cost. She gets penalized for that mixed in with her reliance on a static (outside of ability power) q heal. If she only had one or the other that would not be so much the case.

wolfaxOct 12, 20141 votes

Items should not provide something like negative stats or some sort of debuff to you. Your kit can make certain items less desirable though by way of health cost or something like that.