The Zilean rework was terrible

Karcist·4/23/2015, 4:09:01 AM·75 votes·7,604 views

To preface, I've played a little over 800 ranked games with Zilean between Season 2 and Season 4. Now that I've gotten a chance to use his rework quite a bit, I can honestly say its terrible. Nobody is using Zilean right now, at all. He's not even a little bit fun to play. The most fun thing about him, his E, got completely gutted. The potency on his E was barely increased because of the existent movement speed increase and decrease caps, yet its duration was cut by more than half. This seems like a Cass style rework in the sense that they threw some awful ideas together, and just said: "you're going to like this, and even if you don't you actually do".

Also, nobody likes his stun. His stun doesn't go along with his theme at all. Nobody likes his passive either, it offers nothing for gameplay and I honestly have no idea how it hasn't been changed. Nobody likes the changes to his E. This is because his E is actually less potent until level 14, which it then has massively reduced duration.

I can't think of a single reason why somebody would like this lazy rework, and I have no idea why Riot would think that anybody would either. Its terrible, poorly thought out (if even thought out at all), and leaves his theme as a time mage more muddled and fucked up than it previously was. Please put some more effort into champion reworks. If you don't care about a champion then leave them alone, this really isn't excusable anymore and should never have happened.

42 Comments

Zarxis4/23/2015, 5:09:12 AM27 votes

I've rather enjoyed the changes to Zilean, actually. I agree that he still needs some major changes, but it was a step in the right direction. Old Zilean's Q play patterns were boring and non-interactive. The stun is ridiculous when you land it, and while Q is extremely difficult to land, it's more versatile due to it being a skillshot. New Zilean might not have Nasus' Wither for an E, but he basically has Kennen's ultimate on his QWQ.

I think Riot should follow up on Zilean by making his Q slightly easier to land (probably by increasing the projectile speed). The length of the stun and the damage are fine. His passive needs to go. It's dull, unnoticeable, non-interactive, and it heavily encourages him to play support because he doubles the benefits of his passive by sticking around an ally (meaning it discourages mid Zilean). I've seen many proposals for Zilean's passive to be focused around decreasing allied cooldowns while increasing enemy cooldowns— that might work, but I think it might not have much counterplay beyond Zilean's current patterns. It would probably be a true passive (self-centered AOE, like Janna's) or activated upon using an ability on an ally or enemy (meaning no new interaction is achieved). E could use a duration increase. There are soft caps on how much speed or slow you can apply to an ally/enemy; the 99% is a joke when you consider the length of Zilean's old E.

Most of all, I think Zilean's W should be scrapped entirely in favor of a 2-charge system on his Q (and possibly E) and an entirely new W. Whatever that new W might be, I'd like for it to have some sort of damage and AP ratio attached. Zilean currently has only two AP ratios (Q and ult), and while he can scale with AP, he only has one way to apply his damage: his Q, which is extremely unreliable. Zilean could definitely afford to lose part of his ultimate's AP ratio in exchange for a new ability in place of his W (which might as well be a super-CDR passive).

I would suggest giving his E damage over time, but it's targeted, meaning his laning phase might become a binary point-and-clickfest again.

Lil Soybean4/23/2015, 11:38:17 AM12 votes

I'm going to be the dissenting voice here; I think Zilean's rework makes him extremely fun now, as long as you break the old habit of maxing your bombs, and max E>W>Q to become a ridiculous speeding/slowing ultra-rapid 1-Up carrying machine.

I also enjoy the stun mechanic because it allows me to cut off paths, which I do quite, quite often. Super quickly QWQ a spot with enemies running in that direction, and they either freeze to avoid it, or freeze because they stepped on it and got stunned.

HOWEVER, I agree that his bombs are too unreliable to land, and that he's in a bad place overall right now. Playing him in lane as support feels like there's absolutely no reason to play him. I was playing Zilean support earlier and a thresh hit me with two auto attacks for about 300 damage, likely due to his extra magic damage on some auto attacks. I realized that as Zilean, I would have had to have landed 1-2 bombs to match that damage, but at the cost of mana, and unreliability, and then being on a long cooldown, and also he's way squisher than thresh.

Furthermore, his passive feels useless since they nerfed the range. But here's where the real issue lies. You have two skill paths to choose from as Zilean, realistically.

  1. You max your bomb in lane, so that you actually hurt the enemy with your poke instead of it being something thresh blocks with his lantern casually every ~8-10 seconds. So, okay, you have decently damaging but unreliable poke. The problem is that you transition into being much worse mid-game because your slow is so much worse than it used to be, even maxing it second. So you poke decently in lane, but are slow and unhelpful after the laning phase.

OR:

  1. You max your Speed and then your Rewind. The result? Your laning phase is mega-shitty; you do nearly no damage, save for at level 1 perhaps. But you have a potent slow/speed up to set up ganks relatively easily, if the jungler decides to come. But more importantly, you're actually useful after the laning phase ends. You get to keep yourself super-rapid most of the time, running around, hard to catch, throwing wards and scouting bushes with bombs, etc. It's at this point that he can make huge plays happen just by using his speed/slow to assist a tanky or melee champion (usually his toplaner or jungler).

So either you have a mediocre laning phase, then become shitty, or you start off shitty, then become potentially REALLY helpful.

Obviously the 2nd option is better. And that's where you run into his major problem. If you want to be useful as Zilean, you have to take the level route that makes you horribly weak in lane. And what tends to dominate the support meta?

Champions that can make you instantly die if they land one ability at the right moment. Thresh Blitzcrank Annie Morgana AKA, champions with absurdly strong lane-presence just from their utility.

So, for example, Annie can max whatever she wants first and still be extremely useful in lane by landing a stun on the enemy. If Zilean wants to have any sort of presence like that in lane, he has to max his bombs, and even then, it's less reliable for damage and pretty much useless for actually stunning & killing the enemy. (You can get lucky and land a double bomb, and then you have nothing but auto attacks to hurt the stunned target. Morgana, for example, can pool beneath you. Annie has a burst rotation. Thresh can flay & follow up with enhanced autos. Blitz has the knockup and, at 6, the silence.)

You get the point. The way his kit is designed turned him from previously a reliable lane poker into now "You only get to have one of your abilities be useful; the bombs, or the speed/slow. Choose wisely."

That is the fundamentally broken part in my eyes. I really would like my bombs to be useful. But if I sacrifice even one point in my E/w, I'm sacrificing a huge part of my speed/slowing power, so I can't afford to make my bombs useful.

Oh, and one last thing. As mentioned before; the speed-cap/"diminishing returns" on your speed boost really, really sucks. It's up from 55% to 99% now - almost 2x as much of a bonus - but it certainly doesn't feel anywhere near 2x as strong. Only slightly stronger, maybe 15-20% more. Although it does feel quite potent on enemy champions now, that's counteracted by how short the duration is.

At 40% CDR and max level W and E, you still can't have your E on yourself permanently. The old Zilean could have himself sped up permanently and still speed up someone nearby a bit as well. Theoretically the gaps in your speed boost are "made up for" by the increased speed effectiveness, but it doesn't feel nearly as good, going in constant little bursts of speed instead of reaching that end-game fantasy of being permanently super-fast like he could be before.

Last but not least, the decrease from 7s to 5s on the ulti sounds like counterplay addition, but it became more of an issue of baiting your allies into killing themselves. They see the ulti, hesitate, then decide to go in and try to die with it. So either 1) they die with it and then get killed on the spot upon revival, which was already an issue before, or more pressingly; 2) they panic and run into the enemies and die a brief moment after your mark expires. As a Zilean player, it's really disappointing how many times I've heard people sadly comment how the Zilean ult just barely ran out by the time they died. But the irony is, if they didn't have my ultimate on them, THEY MIGHT HAVE JUST RUN AWAY TO BEGIN WITH.

Is the impact of what I'm saying here being fully understood? Zilean's ulti, which is supposed to specifically save someone's life, now often kills your ally by baiting them just long enough into running by the enemies and getting killed after the mark expires.

So yeah, taking away the bomb's reliability, then nerfing his E range (which really, really sucks) to make sure the bombs stay unreliable, then also making his ulti sometimes kill your allies by reducing the mark duration - the addition of the stun really didn't compensate him enough.

There needs to be improvements. There really, really needs to be improvements. Starting with, in my opinion, increasing his E back to the old range. Following this, they need to make his W on precisely a low enough cooldown at rank 5 that at MAX CDR and MAX RANK IN E AND W, you can once again reach the end-game fantasy of keeping the speed boost of E applied to yourself PERMANENTLY. This is probably the thing that made him the most fun before and the most devastating thing they removed from him. The ability to stay permanently sped once you finally met the right conditions later on in the game. The maths are a little too wonky for myself, but essentially, with 40% CDR and W at max rank, you need to be able to pull your E off cooldown precisely every 2.5 seconds, which is just as long as the speed's duration. So you can permanently speed yourself (at the cost of constant mana drain) or you can alternate speeding yourself and an ally non-permanently. I don't know what W cooldown would facilitate this - it seems that it would be 4.16666~ seconds, so that at 40% CDR it's at precisely 2.5 seconds between uses - but 4.16666~s cooldown is a little bit strange, so making his W a flat 4s cooldown at rank 5 would be IMMENSELY helpful on its own, both in terms of viability and in terms of FUN.

Because of these W and E improvements, he wouldn't need to have his bombs changed, because his kit would synergize better - with the return to the old range on his E, it would actually be used to land the bombs more easily now, which should be the whole point, instead of them lowering his E's range to purposely avoid that. With how squishy he is, you can't really get in E range to land your bombs now that the E range was nerfed. It needs these improvements.

After that, I'd increase the ulti's Mark duration to 6 seconds, maybe 7 like it originally was. 6 should be okay.

Last but not least; scrap the passive. Make it something you actually feel.

These are my long, drawn-out thoughts, and I'm sure you guys won't feel like reading it all, but thanks for reading whatever parts of it that you do. I think I'll make my own thread on this.

SIayton4/23/2015, 4:59:39 AM8 votes

Honestly its just too damn hard to land 2x bombs. Thats seriously his biggest problem. He went from being super reliable to practically unplayable.

disregardable4/23/2015, 4:13:01 AM6 votes

People wanted to like the stun. They wanted him to have less damage, more utility, and more counterplay, and when they saw Riot shift in that direction, everyone insisted that it was the best thing ever. "It makes him more useful", they said. "He has more complexity", they said.

Saianna4/23/2015, 6:15:00 AM6 votes

New Zil bombs are kinda annoying.. To dodge them you have to have just 1 movement speed. Seriously. Even minions dodge bombs with ease.

And i don't believe increasing throwing speed would help. And his mana issues.. Gotta run tear + morello + athene to throw bombs everywhere & anytime (Aram wise ofc). And in the end damage is so low that it doesn't really matter...

Spacesuit Spiff4/23/2015, 8:33:54 PM5 votes

I can kinda see the point of making his Q a skillshot, but that really ruined him for me. I was never good with him, but you could make all sorts of plays by putting bombs on minions/allies/tibbers/etc. Now it's a struggle to land a bomb on anything, let alone your intended target, let alone doing it while you make some sort of play. Sure, hitting someone with a bomb feels like a triumph, but they do so little damage early that it barely matters (and meanwhile enemy Sona just chunked half your health off).

I'd say change his Q to work this way: Q (press): targeted bomb that flies to target ally or creep Q (hold): what Q currently is, he throws the bomb after a short delay.

YOU BEEN WARNED4/23/2015, 10:13:30 PM5 votes

Everything was nerfed dude, literally everything.

Q damage

W doesn't scale with R anymore

E imo the most gigantic nerf and probably most iconic for a time mage, freaking sad

R's duration was reduced

Passive was nerfed previously because LCS

To compensate, Q is a skillshot ( which means it gets more range, this isn't a buff because it misses all the time ) and it has a weird unnecessary stun, no synergy with his kit whatsoever.

What is he going to do after double bombing, auto attack the target ? LOL

The stun and it's duration is pointless, the only positive thing I see in the rework is being able to hurl bombs from afar to farm. And that's not so great either, it just allows you to exist. You better be a good generalist if "existing" is important to you ( see LeeSin Q Zed Q Gnar Q ) Which you definitely are not!

Poor Zilean received his rework the same time Veigar did. That's the only possible explanation.

Now Riot will be too high and almighty to revert the rework, he needs a rework on top of this rework to be efficient.

The Yetii Rider4/24/2015, 12:45:24 PM4 votes

The duration of Zilean's E needed to be reduced. With 40% CDR and maxed Rewind, it had 100% uptime. That's not interactive and it doesn't have any choice, it's just "Build Seraph's and Athene's and develop the fast fingers necessary to hit E on yourself every 5 seconds".

Dangerous Man4/24/2015, 2:32:37 AM4 votes

Zilean wasn't even overpowered before the rework, just decent. Now he is...not good. Im 100% sure Riot has viewed this and doesn't want to comment/admit they did something wrong.

Nilok4/23/2015, 4:28:53 AM4 votes

Ya, several of the non-headline remakes recently have been rather terrible and shows a lack of understanding from the Balance Team.

I would say if Riot does any future remakes, put that champion on the splash screen to promote all the work they put into it like they did Sion. If they feel the remake isn't up the par enough to promote it on the login screen, it shouldn't be released yet.

Aelvr4/23/2015, 5:12:53 AM3 votes

Xerath I can relate...

AtheosisX4/23/2015, 4:21:41 AM3 votes

I hated the old Zilean and I hate the new one. That idiotic GA ult is one of the least fun things in this game.

BoxOfDOG4/24/2015, 4:24:33 AM2 votes

I'm confused.. Moving a champion from applying free long ranged harass to interactive and fun is called gutting now?

I mean, don't get me wrong, they need to make more changes.. But I think nerfing him from Can't Kilean Zilean to Most Of The Time Can't Kilean Zilean is pretty good..

Arcane Azmadi4/24/2015, 5:32:32 AM2 votes

Zilean's reworked kit is an absolute mess and now he just doesn't really do anything. His Qs are so hard to connect with that getting a stun is near-impossible and when a champion with only ONE damage skill has trouble CONNECTING with that skill, that champion is a write-off. Zilean worked before because, while Time Bomb was his only source of damage (the friggin' rework even nerfed his AA range FFS!) it was at least reliable. Now he pretty much has nothing. If you throw bombs into a teamfight, odds are you're either going to tag 2 different targets, who are going to move away from each other before they go off, or miss altogether. E is useless now and R is massively nerfed too. Chronoshift was ultimately the only reason to play Zilean (the bomb bullying was nice, but he was far from the only lane bully) and now he can't even rewind it.

If they insist on sticking with this crappy rework (and they will, Riot never revert anything no matter how bad it is) there's one change I would recommend they make- rather than a second bomb detonating the first if it sticks to the same target, make it that the _detonation _ of the first bomb will set off the second one for the stun, as long as the second one is on a target rather than the ground (to keep Zil from putting a bomb down on the ground then throwing a second one on top if it just before it blows for an instant AoE stun).

Stark60004/24/2015, 5:33:17 PM2 votes

They don't give a shit dude. They are trying to squeeze that last few years of income from this game to fund their next project. Everything they do is half ass. I'll give them credit the balancing is a bit better recently, but that's because it was terrible for about a year.

Mostly, zilean is an underplayed champ and they don't make much money off of him so fuck him. $$$$$ is what they care about. There's like 500 skins in the game. To gain access to 10% of the champions and their skins would cost you probably 200 dollars or more. That's fucking insane.

Occams Raiser4/23/2015, 7:31:48 AM2 votes

They should have just said if you cast his ability a 2nd time in rapid succession it cost + 35 mana. Then they could give him something else on his W. Right now it seems complicated for the sake of it. I would like Q - Q stun. Q W Q. really? You went back to the lab for that? I got QQ alright. Glad I thought he was shit before too. When I see him in against me in lane in normals, I start looking to see which champ I want to unlock next now that I just hit 6300 in the next 20 minutes.

Dr Doppler4/23/2015, 4:28:39 AM2 votes

I think a lot of people, myself included, didn't factor in speed/slow caps when we were forming our impressions of the proposed rework before it launched. I honestly don't have an issue with the change to his bombs from targeted to skill shot, or even with the difficulty involved with landing them. I'm pretty decent at landing them, but landing 2 in a row against the same target in a chaotic team fight is a different story. What I don't like is the shift in power in the ability from reliability to a wonky stun. I would have preferred a weaker form of CC, like a snare or slow, that is more reliable to set up and/or deals more damage.

SS Enforcer4/24/2015, 5:17:21 AM2 votes

I like him and his new abilities honestly. Don't assume that no one likes the new Zilean because that's just not true.

Karcist5/2/2015, 9:25:58 PM1 votes

Still no word from Riot on Zilean :/

Wheatloaf4/23/2015, 9:34:30 AM1 votes

Pretty sure both the Veigar and Zilean changes weren't their actual reworks, but more Riot attempting to do something with their current kits while the Champion Update team is busy with champs deemed higher priorities. They missed the mark in multiple places on both champs though, which sucks no matter what you call the changes.

Venowolf4/23/2015, 8:55:29 PM1 votes

He needs a real passive. Swap a similar version of his W to his passive and add a new skill in his W, can be very nice.

killd0zer4/23/2015, 10:16:11 PM1 votes

His stun doesn't go along with his theme at all.

To be fair his Q doesn't really fit his kit any more at all except aesthetically. It's a pure support kit with entirely utility, then just some random nuke with a delay because there's a "time theme."

His new Q fits his kit better than his old one did lol

Karcist4/24/2015, 4:00:12 AM1 votes

I'm really happy to see that other people are with me on this issue. All of the other Zilean threads seem to get drowned in down votes in spite of raising legitimate concerns.

CoolKnightST4/24/2015, 11:54:57 AM1 votes

Actualy what Zilean need is just one thing: An real Time Warp effect:

ACTIVE: Zilean bends time around a champion, Speeding an enemy or hastening an ally in time by an amount for 2.5 seconds.

#New Status: TIme

  • On enemy is slows movementspeed & projectile speed
  • On ally is grants a speedbuff & increase the projectile speed

This buff would be highly impactfull vs and with AA AD caster like Ezreal Graves Sivir