Can we talk about the mess of a problem that is Kindred?

My Heartshaker·6/18/2017, 2:05:29 PM·9 votes·930 views

Firstly, I'd like to say that her theme and lore are one of the best in my opinion. They are one of my favorite champions based on theme alone, with the portrayal of being spooky hunters.

In game however, this is a completely different story.

Personally I don't understand Riot's insistence on locking so much of Kindred's power budget behind their marks, despite the fact that it's very easy for the enemy jungler and/or team to take advantage of Kindred's low base stats, thus ensuring that Kindred can't contest marked camps unless their team is with them, which is unlikely. Her mark is by itself an indicator screaming "I'm going to invade your jungle at this camp" and being a weak early marksman feels terrible when you can't really outduel any jungler in the early game, the risk is far too high for the reward.

Secondly, crit itemization is the most expensive thing to build, especially if you're in a low-income situation. If you want to build crit, you should be a laner - not a jungler. The one jungler who usually builds crit is MasterYi , and he relies on farming very fast and splitpushing, which Kindred doesn't want to do. Even then he is a pretty cheesy pick. They are, by far, the best definition of "feast or famine". You don't eliminate feast & famine by moving Kindred's scaling from marks to crit. I never got what reasoning they had behind that change. Kindred went from needing marks to needing marks and gold.

The marks were a much better way of letting Kindred scale without having to build multiplicative items, they could build items which fit a jungler. The problem is rather that once you fall behind in marks, it gets pretty hard to ever get any marks at all. Unlike normal champions who can scale up if they successfully stall, Kindred easily just remains weak all game if they fall behind early. If the marks are gonna work, there should be some kind of cushion, a minimum amount of marks they can get without being in too much risk.

tl;dr: The rework did nothing to address the champions feast or famine problem. A champ that is reliant on a RNG stacking passive just doesn't work and if that champs balance is 100% based on if its strong enough to fight for stacks that's not gonna work either, especially if they're being pushed to build crit.

SOLUTIONS

Here are what I propose for some changes to Kindred:

  • Add an interaction with their marked champion. Similar to Garen and his villain, Warwick and his blood hunt and Khazix and his isolation, Kindred should have some interaction with his marked target such as increased damage or damage reduction from that target. That way, it allows Kindred to be able to 1v1 a champ in the early game whilst also considering WHO he wants to mark due to the cooldown between hunts and it also allows them to gain marks without having to rely on the mark RNG itself.

  • Get rid of the global mark symbol on the minimap or make it so that the enemy needs vision of the camp to know if it's marked.
    If an enemy player finds a jungle monster that's Marked, they can attempt to kill it while risking encountering Kindred. Their enemies should NOT know exactly where they're going. To that extent, Kindred could also have x seconds knowing what jungle camps are marked before the enemy team does.

  • Make all possible camps marked, you get half a stack for your own jungle camps and give a longer cooldown between hunts to keep it balanced. For example, have both scuttle crabs, and raptors marked at the beginning of the game. Then have the marks refresh every 3-4 min. It makes it easy to get the early marks necessary, but the difficulty of getting higher marks stays the same (killing enemy buffs, drag, etc.). It also means if Kindred is terribly behind, they can just power farm their own jungle to slowly stack and remain relevant

  • Make them a laner. It's quite possible marksmen just shouldn't jungle at all and that whole concept is a failed experiment.

Thoughts and Opinions?

12 Comments

O Fallen Scholar6/18/2017, 2:59:48 PM4 votes

Kindred is just a piss poor attempt at creating "marksmen" junglers. They're incredibly squishy with no sustain whatsoever and playing that annoying minigame which can backfire heavily. At least Graves can take some slaps in the jungle and is more direct in his playstyle.

Dataless6/18/2017, 2:24:35 PM2 votes

What's a Kindred? Didn't that champ get removed from the game like a year ago?

420 grams6/18/2017, 2:28:43 PM2 votes

Also 20 minute baron marks feel really ambitious for a late game champion

Mannny6/18/2017, 3:50:50 PM2 votes

She was designed to be a jungler but Graves accidentally does her job way better and became super OP for a good while. Riot must have bronze players design champions.

Eternal Torment6/18/2017, 2:18:32 PM1 votes

you did your homework, i have to credit that. yeah, Kindred as of right now is too snowball dependant on earlygame, but with the exception that unlike others he has no way to slip past that line if he hits it and can't outgrow it by himself. making him a crit-dependant champion was a massive mistake, ecspecially considering his previous model just had rather dimm balance issues due to the mark collection difficulty. IMO i would honestly take option 3 from your suggestions the most, give Kindred the ability to farm stacks in her own jungle for the first phase of it's collective growing for maybe the first 3 stacks or so, then directly transcend into the enemy jungle, then the buffs and then after stack 9 make it objective based (dragon and baron)

Asayake 5150glow6/18/2017, 4:01:51 PM1 votes

I like number 3, multiple marks,

That being said, prerework Kindred was a strong early game duelist due to her range and kiting ability. Combined with Red buff she could beat anyone who couldn't 1) oneshot her or 2) have multiple engages (for example meeting a Rengar in a bush).

I haven't played Kindred since, but her earlygame wasn't touched much I believe (I had at most 1 or 2 marks in those early game fights).