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Support and Ranked

KazaJhodo··5 votes·2,128 views

I'm a support main. I depend on my team in soloq to play well. Facepalm.

I'm frustrated with the way ranked works, and feel as though the system does not accurately represent a true ladder system. Especially now that people can pick two main roles- I'm amazed with how many completely inept players I run into. I feel as though the system is not accurate and have a few suggestions/ideas.

First off, get rid of mmr. It keeps players that improve and main the same account from climbing. The first time I ever played league in ranked I played my promos and was placed silver 2. This season I won 7/3 and was placed bronze 5. I was silver 5 last season- and boy is silver 5 full of amazing baddies. Going from bronze 1 to silver 5 is like getting demoted. There are better ways to match players that are simpler and history should not be taken into account- bear with me.

Second, remove the 5 tier safety nets. Go up or go down, but for all that is holy we can not have a pile of bad players at the bottom of all of the division 5s. It makes winning promotions feel like going back to bronze 5- it feels SO bad man. When you're climbing the ladder and feel like you're falling... something is really really wrong.

Third, winning or losing should be worth the same amount of points. Perhaps with a wins/loses in a row modifier; but get rid of this lose 20lp gain 16 nonsense. Win 20, lose 20, simple- not 20 perhaps, but you get the idea. Take away the frustrating experience that horrible feature offers. There are SO many variables in a game, I think its silly to think we can calculate a precise difference between the value of a win and loss with all of those variables taken into consideration. Add tilt into that and there is simply no reliable way, no way. Plus and minus lp per game base, should be equal. I do recommend adding modifiers for wins/losses in a row as well, this way better players climb faster and worse players fall faster. Thats the idea of a ladder system, sorting people out.

Forth, I know its soloq, but- especially for supports, we need a lp system that judges based on performance. For a simple example- kills are 2 points, deaths are -2 points, assists are 1 point kills are 1 point, deaths are -2 points, assists are 1 point (incorporated idea from Win1Ocent's comment). These numbers modify your win/loss lp reward from the game. This means if someone goes for instance 3/3/6 in a game and won for +20lp, they also get (3 - 6 + 6 = 3), 3 additional lp. A win with 9/2/10 would get +20 + (9 - 4 + 10 = 15), +35lp total. If someone lost but was 9/2/10, they would get -20 + (9 - 4 + 10 = 15), - 5lp total. They would lose, but only lose 5lp. How freaking cool would it be to perform so well in a game that you gain lp even when you lose!

As a support I've had many games where I do very well and someone gets caught out on my team, or we let a late game team comp get to lategame.... so on so on, someone feeds the top lane fiora a million kills- you get the idea. Soloq is barely even fun anymore, doing amazing and still losing sucks. Playing well should be rewarded, playing poorly should be punished. If someone is feeding top and screwing over their entire team because they can't play from behind- they need to get demoted faster than everyone else and go where they belong.

This also makes better players rise quicker, worse players fall faster, and lucky players that are carried through games not climb at the same rate as those that carry. If we do all of the above, generally... because its not THIS simple; but doing this the ladder should naturally even out. Getting rid of the tier 5 buffers alone would cause the ladder to even out quite a bit. A ton of players in silver 5 would go straight to bronze 5, I guarantee it. I don't care if I get into gold and then get kicked right back into silver, I just don't want to get into gold 5 and feel like I'm back in silver 4 or something. If anything, get rid of the 5 game promo to clear a division, make it 3 like everything else. The hard part is going from tier 5 to tier 1, the literally moving from tier 1 to next division tier 5 is just the last piece- it doesn't need special treatment. The tier 5 plugs are a bandaid for a bigger issue, and it only creates a worse issue. Sure, people complain less maybe, but if you belong in silver you will remain there if the ladder system works. This game shouldn't feel like luck, and you shouldn't have to be 2 divisions better than where you currently are in order to actually climb. Its broken.

Then, for next seasons promotionals, the mmr would instead be the lp of last season. Simply make a range below and above their lp, and then they get placed within that range according to performance. If you improved a ton last season, bad MMR won't hold you down.

I realize its not as simple as all of this and I'm sure I'm not thinking of all the angles. I'm a designer/programmer for a living, so I know I'm not seeing the whole picture. Though often the complex solutions are not the best ones, sometimes its the super simple ones. Players will have to take much more consideration into their actions if when they get caught they literally lose lp. If players go trading kills in lane with their enemy laner, they literally lose lp for it, in comparison to actually beating their enemy laner.

Champions aren't judged solely on win rate, so don't judge players solely on win rate.

I shouldn't have to play specific roles in order to climb. If I do, the system is broken and the game isn't as fun- especially now that I can choose my roles.

Now that players choose lanes, you can even match players against each other at the lane level. Making sure that a plat3 mid always plays another plat3 mid, or bronze1 jungle is against a bronze1 jungle.

Sorry this was long, I really enjoy the game and think its amazing; but lately I just find myself more and more frustrated. I feel like I'm not playing against the enemy, but trying to carry faster than my team feeds.

34 Comments

CR4ZYRONDH4VI1 votes

I agree. This system would reward playing well much more. Also, i would like it to take your gameplay into account if you lose too. If you go 32/5, you should not be punished and lose LP. Also it should take AFKs into account.

KazaJhodo1 votes

Yeah, I explain above that the lp effects would be for both wins and losses. This would also make it possible to actually gain lp when you lose. Which would be amazing, granted small amounts of gain- but +4lp is infinitely better than losing 20 because your team fed, couldn't choose a comp well, afked, whatever.

I can't tell you how many games i've had where we wrecked our bottom lane, but all or most of the other lanes fed- then everyone comes bottom and it doesn't matter, you can't 2v5 unless they do something really, really, retarded.

Ok, so if thats the case, say we have to 2v5 and hard carry. What the best rig to do that...

Maybe the best things to play in low elo are outplay support champs. The general idea is that you need to be able to make up for your adcs/teams blunders.

Like Sona that heal, dmg, speed and stun- depending on what you need against the enemy comp. Its really risky early. Blitz for strong displacement and lockdown, Thresh for even better lockdown.

If we have to 2v5 I think I would want Thresh.

Thresh is one of the best supports there are, hes tanky, can lay down some serious dmg, tons of cc, and all of his cc except for his hook can effect even up to 5 people. Then a lantern for your carry to get our of REALLY hairy situations or even quick repositions, and a shield. A well placed bait into a lantern can cover a multitude of sins.

Lots of supports are good, but few could make a stand like thresh under a tower when they all come bottom. Sona is solid with the heal mastery right now, but one mistake and you'll get popped. Very risky for a 2v5 under tower.

I'll start spamming thresh and see how it goes. He is already my best support anyways.

Thanks for throwing in your opinion man.

CR4ZYRONDH4VI1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, I explain above that the lp effects would be for both wins and losses. This would also make it possible to actually gain lp when you lose. Which would be amazing, granted small amounts of gain- but +4lp is infinitely better than losing 20 because your team fed, couldn't choose a comp well, afked, whatever.

I can't tell you how many games i've had where we wrecked our bottom lane, but all or most of the other lanes fed- then everyone comes bottom and it doesn't matter, you can't 2v5 unless they do something really, really, retarded.

Ok, so if thats the case, say we have to 2v5 and hard carry. What the best rig to do that...

Maybe the best things to play in low elo are outplay support champs. The general idea is that you need to be able to make up for your adcs/teams blunders.

Like Sona that heal, dmg, speed and stun- depending on what you need against the enemy comp. Its really risky early. Blitz for strong displacement and lockdown, Thresh for even better lockdown.

If we have to 2v5 I think I would want Thresh.

Thresh is one of the best supports there are, hes tanky, can lay down some serious dmg, tons of cc, and all of his cc except for his hook can effect even up to 5 people. Then a lantern for your carry to get our of REALLY hairy situations or even quick repositions, and a shield. A well placed bait into a lantern can cover a multitude of sins.

Lots of supports are good, but few could make a stand like thresh under a tower when they all come bottom. Sona is solid with the heal mastery right now, but one mistake and you'll get popped. Very risky for a 2v5 under tower.

I'll start spamming thresh and see how it goes. He is already my best support anyways.

Thanks for throwing in your opinion man.

Haha yeah. Ill be top lane 4/0 and then ill peer down the rift to see the 0/5 midlaner, the 0/10 bot lane - but wait? wheres the jungle? oh he's afk in the base. I think I'm gonna try playing a lot more thresh too. i think you're the one that told me about his build in my post. Thanks for your 2 cents haha.

Hagrids Double 1 votes

One thing that I think that needs to be added to the system is if a played did well in that game why must he get punished because his top Jayce went 4/12/3 (shivers). That game I was supporting and went 1/3/16 (roughly dont remember exactly but it was close) and then also got a S grade at the end of the game....and lost 22 lp. Like I am busting my ass to help my team and playing very well and then I get punished as if I were the Jayce.

KazaJhodo1 votes

Right, thats what I'm getting at. Though I want to be careful not to completely blame other for my losses either. So I did some quick research looking for patterns when I win games as support.

Interestingly enough, if you can multiply my deaths by 3 and I have equal or more assists, I win every game. If not, I lose. Which means that in order to win a game, at least where I'm at in the rankings, I have to help kill 3 people every time I die, or I'll lose. Essentially a 3 or greater kda.

Out of my latest 50 games there were 5 exceptions to this.

sona - 8/9/24 win, because I must've carried that one a bit (over 3 kda) braum - 2/3/7, I must've gotten carried (3 kda) sona - 0/7/20, really close to the rule kench - 6/7/23 loss, I expect that was a bad team (over 3 kda) kench - 5/4/8 win, I probly carried a little (over a 3 kda)

So although I feel as though the things above need fixing, If I can play support and get a 3 or higher kda I should win my games. Its a small test group, only 50 games, but I'll make that my goal and see what I can do. Maybe it will work for you as well.

gottrjr1 votes

The system should take champion proficiency into consideration. If somebody is playing a champ for the first time then the matchmaking should consider this when setting up matches. I don't want to play with 3 first time champs who are going against people's mains. It's a bloodbath almost every time.

KazaJhodo1 votes

That one is tricky. The api data on that resets per season, so technically at the start of a season everyone is 1st playing a champ- but its completely inaccurate. You could look up previous season data but I don't think its worth it.

Besides that, a first time play has nothing to do with how they will perform- well, it does, but not completely. They could've played the champ 500 times in normals, we don't know. There really isn't a way to track that, plus it would overcomplicate things in my opinion.

However, on the other hand the new system would automatically penalize/reward the player. For instance if we went with the new modified lp idea that Win1Ocent helped come up with, +1lp for a kill, -2 for death, +1 for assist- if they played bad on a new champ they would go down the ladder more than you.

If they went say 1/8/3 and you went 4/1/10, and say you lost the game (-20lp), then he would lose 32 lp, you would lose 6. If you had won he would gain 8, you would gain 34. How awesome is that.

Win1Ocent1 votes

MMR is the reason why the system works and why we don't need to remove the safety nets. Regardless of what your tier or division is you will be matched with players of similar MMR not division or tier. If someone is stuck in gold 5 but has the mmr of a silver 4, he won't be on your team if your MMR is at a gold 5 level.

Silver 5 is full of baddies because it's silver 5, not because their MMR is much worse than silver 5, and if their MMR is that much worse and you get them on your team, then your MMR is just as bad.

The LP amount you get per win is solely based on your MMR, if the system recognize that you belong in a higher division it will give you more points to get you up there faster, if it's high enough you'll even skip a whole division. If your MMR is lower than intended for your division though, you'll lose more points than you gain because the system is trying to bring you closer to where you belong.

Having your KDA mean something in terms of gaining LP is something that will never happen, it would create chaos, people would KS like crazy and be supermad when getting KS:ed, or when not being allowed an assist. Also, it would hardly be a fair system, carries who go for kills would be favored over tanks and supports. You already get more LP from playing well, if you were to win 10 games in a row, you would be rewarded with more and more LP each win.

Just to add a bit to the KDA part, i know it sucks when you feel like you have an awesome game and your team is feeding. However, IF you are that fed, chances are you just stayed in lane for 20-25 minutes and farmed your opponent and completely ignored to help the other lanes. If you are ahead in a game, you need to help your teammates out either via ganks or objectives. Riot knows that KDA doesn't win games, they want to promote teamplay.

The dynamic queue messes a bit with the MMR though, if you are a group of premades with wildly different MMR. But you still get matched against a team of as close to equal average MMR as possible. Once solo queue arrives though, it will be normal again, players with the same MMR against players with the same MMR, regardless of how they performed in that game, believe it or not, they are at the same skill level as you are.

KazaJhodo1 votes

You make a lot of good points, but I still have some counters.

The first one is we're assuming that mmr works. If I thought mmr was working as intended, I wouldn't think the system was broken. If mmr was successful, especially now that people are choosing their roles, games should be closer than ever. They just simply aren't.

Its not that I don't understand mmr or what its purpose is- I just don't think its working well. I also think its not needed to judge players by a history vs per game. We have the ladder for a reason, simply match people to their division and tier. If it needs to be more accurate, match within 10 lp or something. For instance if you have a bronze 3 at 40lp, the enemy team has a bronze 3 from 35lp to 45lp. Simple. If there is no match, widen the range in increments until you hit a match.

What you don't do is say we have a 50mmr, 10mmr, 10mmr, 10mmr, 10mmr vs 20mmr, 20mmr, 20mmr, 20mmr, 10mmr. Both are 90 combined mmr, but its likely the later team will win. Its not the best example, but you get the idea. An eggs in one basket scenario. It would be far better to have a plat3 vs a plat3 than a weird combination of things that equal out the mmr. PLUS, now that roles are chosen, you can even match the lanes so that matching lp goes against one another in lane. In theory.

If someone has the mmr of silver 4 and is in gold 5, he should be playing gold 5s. It doesn't make sense to have a ladder system where you're not playing people in your ladder. You should not get to gold 5 and still be playing against silver anything. Silver 1s should play silver1s, and the best of those goto gold 5, gold 5s play gold 5s and so on.

If I go 3/1/18 as a support in a game, lose the game, and then just lose 20lp like everyone else... I don't know what mmr is doing. I literally feed 18 kills to my team, and clearly they aren't good enough to do anything with it. If I had fed 18 kills to challenger level players you think I would've lost the game? Extremely doubtful, there are arguments to be made of course, but no good ones, lol.

I feel as though mmr is overkill. Just go by lp and match people by lp, with some sort of performance modifiers, per game- not a history like mmr. Perform well and go up, perform badly and go down. Match by lp, not by mmr.

Your point kill stealing and so forth is good, and of course I thought of that- I just didn't have a solution and was willing to accept those side effects for better matchmaking. We could resolve that issue by just making a kill worth one lp, a death -2, an assist one... I think would do it. Then there would be no reason to fight over kills vs assists and a good support could easily gain lots of bonus lp as well. Yeah, that makes sense, nice and simple. This would also make deaths carry more weight, which I think is healthy for the game. It would also tone down how much bonus lp could be gained, which I think is also better.

To your last point- thats very situational... and actually perhaps the thing not to do. Farm your lane, no, kills are worth less and less so there is no point. Get a strong lead and take your tower.

Generally you should help your team, although sometimes its far more effective to pressure/split taking towers. For instance if you are a fed bot lane, ward up and keep pushing your lane and taking objectives. By doing so their team has to send more people to you in order to stop you, and your team that is behind can take their towers. This gives the team global gold and free farm, catching your team up drastically. Wards should allow you to get out if placed well. You can also itemize to escape if you know thats what you'll be doing. By creating pressure that must be responded to on the map you effectively free up your team to take objectives while catching up themselves.

If you don't feel safe doing that, ward up their jungle and kill the jungle, then push the lane. Either way you're drawing attention that can't be ignored, which frees up your team to get farm and push lanes.

Just like a jungler, sometimes its just not effective to go help a lane if its out of control to the point where you'll just get doubled. I know it seems counter intuitive, but it works.

You made a lot of great points and I really appreciate your post.

I also added the modification idea that you triggered into the main post.

Win1Ocent1 votes

Before the divisions and tiers were in the game, we only had MMR to go on, back then the system actually was just like you want it to be. You had an ELO number, if your number was 1500 you were gold 5, you were now matched with ONLY gold 5s and you would gain a close to flat amount of ELO each game. The problem with that was that a lot of players were complaining about it, and Riot thought ELO was too punishing of a system and caused ladder anxiety, so they introduced the divisions and tier system, but in reality the divisions and tiers are just a shell to cover your ELO, it is still working in the same way, and it IS working just the way you want it to. Because it's just a shell, you don't get matched with the same division/tier players but you get matched with and against players of the same ELO. Behind that shell there is a counter going +20 and -20 each game, the ELO/MMR to reach gold 5 right now is 1450 i believe, if your ELO is at 1450, you will play with and against gold 5s or silvers with great MMR. The system is fair, you could be a one trick pony, climb to gold 4, now riot olafs that champion, and you have no other champion to fall back on, so you start to main something else. However, you are not nearly as good at that champion, so you start to lose game after game, the system matches you with worse players each up coming game, to see where you can actually start having a 50% win rate which is the goal of the system, to make you win 50% of the time until you get better and can increase that chance to 51+%.

What you want is to have a fair fight, where nobody feeds or nobody gets fed. This is simply impossible, no matter what the system. There are too many variables, and sometimes it only takes 1 death in lane and you can never come back. The players you are matched with right now are at the same skill level as you, if you were to remove the MMR, modify the system a bit and just go by LP it would still be exactly the same as it is now, there would still be feeders, there would still be ragers, players overextending, not grouping etc. Someone has a bad game almost every game, rarely does EVERYONE in a game have a great game. No matter what divison you're at, no matter the tier, there is still always a winner and a clear loser in every lane. Sometimes a midlaner made a great roam bot lane, got a double kill and snowballed like crazy, does your midlaner suck now? Well looking at the KDA he sure does, but looking at their skill, not so much. Or, you got counterpicked hard, had a really hard matchup, do you just suck or was it just a rough matchup. With all the counters, different team comps, different lanes and all the decisions you can do in a game, it does not matter what system you have.

When i talked about the KDA i said, if you're ahead you need to help your lanes via ganks or objectives. Turrets are objectives and therefor pushing bot lane is helping your team. But if what you're saying is true, that you more often than not win your lane, and you more often than not help your team either via ganks or objectives then you should be winning more than 50%. What i'm talking about is if you're winning your lane but do NOTHING about it, and there are plenty of those players out there. This game is all about figuring out how to win the game, anyone who's ever got to gold usually has no trouble doing it again. I've made it to diamond on severeal accounts, even while playing stupid shit like support wukong only, the system works, you just need to figure out how to win the games.

KazaJhodo1 votes

Yeah, I get the concepts, even if I don't really know the literal calculations.

But you don't get matched against players truly in your division. Its matched mmr wise, but its not actually matching elo. Otherwise teams would exactly match up as far as divisions and tiers are concerned.

My idea would be a rather punishing system I guess- though my main point is that I would like an accurate system. Also keep in mind that I don't see all of the angles, I have no idea what is actually going on under the hood. I realize this, but I can see the results.

You're exactly right about that there would still be ragers and feeders and so on. Of course there would, and that is something we can't fix. Or at least you don't design a system around the edge cases, you design it around the design of the game. I'm not looking to get rid of feeders and afks, I'm looking to get an accurate ranking system. Everyone doesn't have to have a great game, I also think thats unrealistic, but the matches, in theory, would be closer. I'm simply looking for closer, better games. I'm sure you haven't been in silver or bronze for a long time. And I know, I know, you just climb right out. Thats what happens when you're diamond, you are so far above the other players in skill that you just can solo carry. Thats fine, but whats not fine is when you're held back because you're not 3 divisions better than the other players on your team.

Also playing wukong support, thats fine, but you know why you're doing it. You got stuck in support and you want to carry, you know your team will not and its up to you. So you go non-meta because you can get away with it. You also get away with it because people aren't used to it, they play stupid and die to the kill lane and now you're snowballing. Its a trap and you know dummies will fall for it. Why? Because you don't belong playing those players, you clearly know more than them and are better than them.

In regards to counters, for sure there are hard lanes, lanes that you literally if they play correctly, can't win. A better player will know this and wait for the jungle, a worse player will feed because they don't know better. If everyone knows and warns them about the matchup but they still feed... I would say they weren't matched correctly into the game. If you do one trade and lose it hard and the enemy has more sustain... you shouldn't trade anymore. Simple. If I'm in games with people where they keep trading and die, we're not well matched up because they clearly don't even understand the basics.

Oh ganks OR objectives, sorry I didn't notice. For sure. And absolutely, where I'm at in elo people don't know how to control the lanes, muchless ward up to take turrets or when to setup dives and so on. When they're fed they just complain about other people feeding and don't take their lead to other lanes, or even down their lane. Its a nightmare. I guess thats why I'm making the suggestion to judge people on performance as well with some sort of elo modifier based on performance. Then even in the frustrating games, at least you would have potential to negate the negative lp you will receive.

I'm a support main, maybe I should do your wukong method. Though I would get raged at for sure, lol. Thats my whole point though, if I play support well but still lose games and have to resort to wukong bot in order to carry- isn't something wrong? Or should I just do whatever I have to do to win, take kills as support and try to carry with non-support champs? Is that a viable solution or does that just make the game less fun for my team?

Not that I care, but people play worse when they're raging about a weird pick, and they play bad enough as it is. I mean, for sure I have bad games, but its getting to be very rare that I make mistakes and have those games.

I did however do some research and found that in my last 50 games, most of them support, every game where I had a kda of 3 or more I won. So, thats my new goal, do what I'm doing and make sure I'm giving my team 3 kills for every death I have. Its not easy, but I pretty much literally win every game where I can accomplish that. Assuming of course I'm doing other things right, such as roaming, warding, taking objectives, setting up objectives and so on.

All of your points are great. For sure I just need to figure out how to win, which is why I reviewed my last 50 games. My main issue again however is that I feel as though I'm not matched up with people of equal skill and I feel like the system should judge with a little bit more individual player judgement. Otherwise my ranking is completely based on who is matched with me- which in theory should work, but judging from results its clearly not.

I suppose most of this could be blamed on people that do not play often, the weekend warriors. So their mmr is way higher than it should be. The first time I played ranked promos I was placed silver 2, and I was not in any way shape or form silver 2. Which I think is another backfire of mmr, this season I know i'm way better than my first promos, and I went 7/3, hard carried games as well, and I got bronze 5. Depressing.

I know its because of my mmr- and I know I'm way better than bronze 5 because i went and climbed right back to silver 5 easy. However, I did get super lucky with the matchups in my games- like, super lucky. Shrug. Just the fact that I feel like I was super lucky I think is a sign that something is askew.

Again man, GREAT comments, I feel like you know way more than I do about the system. I just don't have the faith in it, but if I was diamond wrecking people in silver I think I would feel like it was working fine as well. I really appreciate you taking the time to invest what you think into the post.

Win1Ocent1 votes

I'm not sure i understand exactly what you're after anymore :P

When i create a new account i usually get insane win rates early on, my MMR/ELO skyrockets, but the LP system can't keep up. Last season on one of my smurfs when i was gold 1 i was matched against and with plat 1 and diamond 5 players because of my MMR skyrocketing. The system recognizes that i should be higher up and matches me with better players and rewards me 35+ LP per win and i get to skip every other division to climb even faster. Now if i understand you correctly, would you say it would be more fair for me to face off against gold 1 players just because my current division is gold 1? Or you would say it's unfair for the team that gets me (a gold 1) on their team instead of a plat 1 or diamond 5?

KazaJhodo1 votes

I'm after evenly matched games. If mmr gets us there, ok. I realize its a super complicated thing, attempting to match up players- but overall I don't think the mmr approach is how to do it.

Mmr is broken, because other people on your team influence your mmr. Your mmr isn't a representation of you, its a representation of you with these 4 people, then the next 4 people and so on and so on. If you go to make a play and you expect your ally to do certain things and they don't, then you die, they effected your mmr. It just can't actually be accurate.

By my idea for lp, you would get bonus lp for wins in a row, and it would scale. So for instance if you win one, your next game you get bonus +2lp if you win, then 4, then 8, then 16... not exact numbers, but you get the idea. Some sort of additional lp scaling. This means you would have the same effect, but the system wouldn't be trying to figure out how good you are. It would just judge your performance and naturally ramp you up. Eventually you would skip tiers and the sky is the limit... in theory. lol

What I'm getting at is that games are lopsided and there is a problem. Maybe mmr isn't the problem, I think its part of it, but if you do not thats fine. It could also just be the snowbally nature of the game right now. I don't understand the inside and outs of the system. I just think its an added layer of complexity that isn't needed, and there is a better way.

Win1Ocent1 votes

Like i said before, no matter what the system, players would still be roughly where they are placed now. No system would make the games more even. Games are lopsided sometimes i agree, but it's not because of the MMR. You've talked a bit about players making bad decisions, but one thing you need to understand about solo queue is that players will never have the same decision making skills. There are literally hundreds of different decisions to be made each game, you could potentially figure out 50 decisions in one game, what are the odds that someone else on your team had those exact decisions in mind as well?

Every decision could work, and players most of the time think that they are right and has the best decision no matter what. A classic example is, we just killed 4 of them, what now, baron or push? In solo queue it's common to see a team split up in two, and both parties think the other party has really bad decision making, even though both options are viable.

Same thing could be said about a different scenario, you are a support and you hook someone and you think it's a great play because you have a team mate with you, however he doesn't follow up on that play, now maybe, he noticed an incoming jungler right as you jumped in, maybe he had no mana left, maybe he wanted to recall to get his items and to keep a lane frozen. Just because you think a play is great doesn't mean everyone else thinks it's great.

Earlier you said that if someone has a rough matchup and gets warned about it, and still dies he doesn't belong in that ELO. That is just not true, there are sooooo many top lanes who after getting a kill and hitting level 6, could easily towerdive you, they could freeze the lane on you and force you to not get a single CS for like 5-10 minutes, you have to do something to counter it. I used to be a Wukong main, i could beat most matchups, but not Darius, never ever Darius. He would outtrade me, so i would try to avoid it, try my best not to die which after level 6 is hard. I wouldn't blame anyone for losing that matchup as wukong becuase i know how hard it is not to die to a Darius.

I noticed that you started playing some top lane now, good for you mate. I think you'll notice that it's not always so easy not to die.

The only way to improve in this game is to ignore everyone elses mistakes and focus on your own.

KazaJhodo1 votes

I completely agree. There are literally a bazillion variables involved. Which is why I'm against mmr. You just have to make a system with less moving parts, the less moving parts the less things to break. Especially with something as complicated as this, which is why I'm advocating lp rewards based on performance.

Afks, feeds, decision making, all of these things are virtually impossible to capture and place people with. Then of top of that, people get tired, they have bad days- you name it. You get tilt involved and there is simply no way, no way. Which is why mmr simply can't work, adding a recorded history of judgement just muddles things up even more.

Not to mention when people are drunk or high while playing. You know how many players I get in my games that mention they are high or drunk. Granted, could just be them making excuses, 'LAG', but you get the idea. We have all of this extra work in mmr, just get out of the way and let the performance of players place them.

I disagree that there is a better way to do it. Even if we didn't junk mmr, mmr itself could be better for sure, improved.

I really do appreciate your posts man, it makes me feel better about the game a bit.

Yeah I give up on support, at least if I play top or mid I can stop those lanes from feeding and give us a better chance. Plus, if I'm going to lose, let me lose because I played bad- plus I can carry harder from those lanes if I play well.

I completely understood what you meant before. Its not like I hadn't played top before, I get it.

My specific complaint is when someone is 0/6 in ten minutes. They should know to stop feeding, thats blatantly different than being 0/2 and knowing to knock it off.

Overall you're right, no matter what I can't rely on the system to make winning more reachable, I have to outplay until I can take it. I can only change me, so I need to focus on me- which I do. I review every single mistake, what could I have done different or next time in this matchup I'm starting these items.... or what if I had these runes instead, so on so on.

Anyways, I really appreciate your input. At least now that I'm in top or mid I can try to carry the game myself, I just think its silly I have to- but maybe thats the nature of low elo. Maybe if I had done that a long time ago, I'd be out already. I guess to complain about my teammates, and play a role that I have to rely on them, is stupid. Maybe I'll start to like top and mid as well.

Bocab1 votes

I think that there is a bit of misunderstanding of what mmr is here. Yes, it is a history, but not a weighted one. If you have silver level mmr for 10 games or 1000 you can still climb just as easily if you improve. the ball on the chain doesn't grow the longer it sits in the same place, but it is harder to make dramatic changes to gameplay habits the longer you keep them.

"There are literally a bazillion variables involved. Which is why I'm against mmr. You just have to make a system with less moving parts, the less moving parts the less things to break. Especially with something as complicated as this, which is why I'm advocating lp rewards based on performance."

what could possibly be simpler than "Win = yes/no" any more complex and the system could be gamed to get rank. this way, as unsatisfying as it can be when you play well and still lose, absolutely kills all excuses. Winning is the only objective of a competitive game, and the system rewards only those who do whatever they need to do to win.

I completely understand where you are coming from, and it took me a long time to understand why it is the way it is and not complain about it. Think of the ladder in terms of a tournament, if the losing team in the finals played great, people talk about it and they will be more satisfied with themselves, but iin no situation can the tournament officials say: "well, they played so well that we will award them first place even though they lost". In the end, only winning matters in rankings.

This is a little oversimplified, but keep in mind they have whole teams of people who are trained in statistics and other relevant subjects, and have way more data to draw on than we do, and they keep this system because its the best they can come up with. Hope this helps and good luck in The Climb.

KazaJhodo1 votes

If its not a weighted history, then why on my first promos ever did I get placed into silver 2, and in my recent promos where I went 7/3 i was placed bronze5. I know plenty of players that did worse in their promos and were place higher. It has to be related to mmr in some fashion.

I have no clue what mmr does. I know it matches games, and I know the games feel completely random. And by that I don't mean the game itself, I mean what player know and do not know. Some know about objectives and wave control, warding, map awareness, so on- some seem absolutely completely clueless.

It does not kill all excuses either. I have 5 excuses in every game, me, and the four other people in my game that guide the game to its resolution. I only control me. My mmr will reflect the 5 of us... thats not going to be accurate; and its going to just feel plain bad.

I realize they have whole teams, and I realize I do not by any means know all of the angles. However, that does not mean I can't observe flaws in the system. Especially since, in this case its right after a huge change in the matchmaking system. You can now choose your lanes- thats changes matchmaking in such a huge way, huge...

I don't think that the mmr accounts for it. At the very least, its certainly no fun losing games because of my teammates and not being able to do anything about it. Or at the very very least, receiving the same reward as my teammates when I don't play poorly. When I play poorly, and oh do I sometimes- bring it on, I deserve the loss, all good.

I get what you are saying, for sure. Though I disagree and think there is a completely better way to matchmake the game. On the other hand, I don't know everything that riot knows and doubt that I could do it any better- well, theres no way I could. I'm not that good of a programmer. Coming up with the idea/concept however is much easier than the actual programming. The point however is that matchmaking just doesn't work and the ladder is a mess. The skill disparity I see in my games is crazy. Maybe this is just a low elo issue, but if it is, it doesn't mean that the system works, it just means that its less obvious that its broken in higher elo.

Though I do think a major part of my problem is that i've just played support in an elo where support doesn't get you out of the elo- for far too long. All I've played is adc/support mostly. So now I'm playing top/mid and trying to get myself out. So far its been way easier to win games. Still hard because of teams, for sure, but easier.

Win1Ocent1 votes

I've been thinking, i think the reason why you feel the ladder is a mess is quite simple. You are playing at almost the closest to average rank you can be. At every season start, the MMR of every player gets soft reset to a value closer to 1200. It's still early in the season, and a lot of players haven't found their true MMR yet + everyone who just started to play ranked will be placed where you're at. Early in the season a lot of bronze 2 - gold 1 will be placed around each other, a lot of gold 3-plat 1 will be placed around each other, and all plat 3-d5 will be placed around each other and all the d5-challenger will be placed around each other. Naturally though, most of those gold players who are suddenly in silver 4 will quickly rise back to gold, but not everyone starts playing ranked right away, some want to wait for the better players to rise. So right now when you enter a game, you could have a bronze 1 guy from last season against a gold 2 guy from last season, the bronze guy is obviously gonna have a rougher time.

This might seem unfair, but it is a necessary evil. The more time that passes though, the more even the games get, at the end of the season you are battling with and against players who has 500+ ranked games played, they have all found their true elo.

I'm still against your argument that you find it unfair that some players has less knowledge than others, as knowledge is not the only thing in this game that matters. You can climb in this game solely by mechanics, solely by knowledge or both. And trust me, there are plenty of things you do or do not do in your games that other players are suprised you do not know. Everything you know as of this point is obvious to you, you might know when to back off, but some players do not, but those same players may know something you don't, doesn't make them worse. And if they are that much worse, they will quickly drop and you'll never play with or against them again. The beauty of MMR, it gets rid of everyone that's bothering you.

KazaJhodo1 votes

Yeah, I understand that stuff. I still feel as though the system is broken and overly complicated. Though again I would state that I don't know everything, like you said I can only judge from what I know.

I've been playing a lot more top and its been much easier and much more enjoyable than support.

Solely because I can far more drastically impact games with far less effort. My last game the enemy team had a fed yi, super fed, but because I had a good lead I was able to effectively take objectives while he chased my team around, ultimately an inhib and the game.

I guess what I'm getting at is that I feel like I'm not where I belong, and my system idea would fix it. Not because I've manipulated the system, but because it would be a more accurate system.

I'm not saying i need to be higher, I just want to feel like the people I'm playing with are remotely the same skill level as me. Which, I know, easier said than done- but thats exactly why I started this thread. I see a pattern, and I think I know why it exists and what we can do to fix it.

When my team is deep mid and just got an objective and I warn them, get out before yi comes and cleans you all up- and they don't leave and yi gets a tripple... again... its fine- but a little frustrating obviously. lol

I think that no matter what mmr does currently, the teammates I'm getting are so erratic that it quite literally feels like a luck game. At times, like I said its erratic.

Either way, I know there are tons of things I can still improve on, tons and tons. Maybe I just wish it wasn't such a struggle, lol.

I am really enjoying top though, its sooooo much easier to carry with than relying on a bronze adc.

I've also been trying to take some of my own advice and make short range plans with my teammates. Like, toplane has no flash, i'm letting him push in, come gank for a free kill. When I'm 6 i'll ping for botlane to put a ward down, let em push in and we'll wreck em. I'm working on it.

Ultimately I feel like the system could be improved drastically with my idea- however I don't need that to have fun in the game. Its just an idea.

I disagree on mmr moving the baddies away though. If for no other reason than as soon as I get to silver 5 again, they're all sitting there waiting for me. Then when I get to gold 5, I'm sure it'll be the same thing.

I just have to figure out how to wreck and solo carry games. I know if you were in my games you would, no question- and I'm gaining in that aspect, doing better and better every game at it.

KazaJhodo1 votes

At least now that i'm playing top I feel like I actually belong where I am, lol.

KazaJhodo1 votes

I'm after evenly matched games. If mmr gets us there, ok. I realize its a super complicated thing, attempting to match up players- but overall I don't think the mmr approach is how to do it.

Mmr is broken, because other people on your team influence your mmr. Your mmr isn't a representation of you, its a representation of you with these 4 people, then the next 4 people and so on and so on. If you go to make a play and you expect your ally to do certain things and they don't, then you die, they effected your mmr. It just can't actually be accurate.

By my idea for lp, you would get bonus lp for wins in a row, and it would scale. So for instance if you win one, your next game you get bonus +2lp if you win, then 4, then 8, then 16... not exact numbers, but you get the idea. Some sort of additional lp scaling. This means you would have the same effect, but the system wouldn't be trying to figure out how good you are. It would just judge your performance and naturally ramp you up. Eventually you would skip tiers and the sky is the limit... in theory. lol

What I'm getting at is that games are lopsided and there is a problem. Maybe mmr isn't the problem, I think its part of it, but if you do not thats fine. It could also just be the snowbally nature of the game right now. I don't understand the inside and outs of the system. I just think its an added layer of complexity that isn't needed, and there is a better way.

Nik Nikerson1 votes

But people on your team are going to influence your standing no matter what. That's the nature of a team game. Even if you make a ranking system based solely on individual performance, your teammates will influence it. Say you're playing adc. Your team feeds up the enemy Zed, who is them able to jump on you repeatedly and blow you up before you can react, your individual score is going to suffer. If you have a good jungler, or support, he'll get you fed and your stats look better. Say in your case, you play support. If your adc doesn't want to follow up on any of your plays, you aren't going to get assists. There are a million different ways other players impact your game. Long story short: Your teammates end up influencing your performance. Sometimes less, sometimes more, but they will always impact your game.

Also, performance in game can't always be judged by your KDA. I've had games as Rumble where my stat line was terrible because of constant ganks, or being counterpicked, but I still had a major role in team fights and have done my job helping my team win. I've had games on tank champions where I didn't do much more than soak up damage and abilities, and die in the process, but my team constantly won fights because I did my job and let them deal the damage. Should I be punished for my stats being poor, but still did my job helping my team win?

KazaJhodo1 votes

Yeah, I agree, I'm not looking to completely abolish the problem, just make things better. It also wouldn't be solely on individual performance, you would have a normal static win/loss +/- lp, that would also scale the more you win/lose in a row. The performance would be a modifier. Essentially it allows you to play well and not lose as much lp because of a bad team.

Its not a cure all, but instead of losing -20lp when you're 8/2/12, you would only lose 4.

For your zed example, yes, but get a qss for one, for two if you know that is the case try to stay out of teamfights until zed blows his stuff. There really aren't many options there, but you get the idea. Also I would say that if you went even in lane its still a skill related thing. For instance you may have not fed, but you were only 2/0/1 or something because the skill matchup was even. I guess that goes right back the initial point that if zed was fed by the midlaner, maybe the matching wasn't the best. Though there are tons of variables involved in that, at least if you were both the same division and tier I would have no complaints. Shit happens. That midlaner is just on his way up the ladder and is better than where he is. This system would also send him up the ladder faster, because if he blows up the game, he gets more lp, he moves up to higher ranks where he belongs. Eventually the system balances itself out and its rare you encounter that or the discrepancies in skill become less and less.

I also agree that performance can't always be judged by kda... in part. I played a gnar game the other day where I did pretty horrible, but in the end I locked down all their carries in the final teamfight and we won the game. I would argue that just because I did that, doesn't make up for my bad play previously. In this system I would've got +20lp for the win, but also negative lp for however bad my performance was- personally I'm fine with that, I earned it. Plus, when I do well I would get even more lp, I want that also. So give me the good and the bad, I like being judged because of me. It puts more of your lp in your control, which even though is not perfect, is a better situation than all of lp in 4 strangers hands.

The ultimate answer to your kda point, in my opinion, is if you're dying its generally bad, there are exceptions; but anytime you die its a miscalculation/misplay. For instance you never go in planning to die, you didn't know it was going to be a 5 for 1 when you went in- so its not good play- its lucky they were stupid and blew their cooldowns on you. Even if the enemy team is silly enough to completely focus a tank, you die, and your team wins a 5 for 1- thats all good, really good, but regardless you still died. If the enemy team wasn't dumb, likely the fight would've been very different.

This system would also punish the classic Tryndamere taking towers and dying strat. Splitting and dying, winning due to a teams disorganization wouldn't be as beneficial, but you would still mostly gain lp. Essentially it makes dying really bad, which it is really good, thats how it should be. Someone who goes 11/11/4 would also be punished for dying so much and feeding the enemy team. Also trynd could still split, just not suicide his way to victory without penalty.

Personally yes, I think if your kda is bad, its bad for a reason and should be punished. If its good, its probably good for a reason and should be rewarded.

Even if you're hard countered in lane you don't have to die, you play smart, you ward to see if their jungle comes to dive you, you lose cs to not die, you play from behind. If your enemy lane roams you warn your lanes and go where your midlaner goes so on and so forth. You keep your health so that if a gank comes you can help or you setup a bait.

It wouldn't be a perfect system, but it would be overall better and actually balance out the ladder.

I really appreciate your comment.

These are the exact discussions I'm looking for, why its bad why it wouldn't work, what would need to be adjusted. Thanks so much for your opinion.

Full Metal Griip1 votes

i made a new account, got 15 wins in a row, but as soon as I got my first few afk troll games, i lost 5 games, making my MMR not according to my kda or objective based skill

KazaJhodo1 votes

Yeah I'm not sure exactly how mmr works or what it does. I just know that my first promotionals ever put me in silver 2, and my most recent put me in bronze 5. lol

I may not be good now, but I was terrible in my first promos. I didn't even do well and was placed silver 2- so mmr is doing something bad.

Plus the tier safety nets keeping players in silver 5 is just bad for the game. You get to silver 5 and it feels like bronze 4, its so bad. Shockingly bad.

Full Metal Griip1 votes

if u knew how many people troll in your first 20 matches makng ur MMR faulty, youre statement is inaccurate, just like the matchmaking system

Horse Grenades1 votes

I climbed from Bronze 3 to Gold 4 so far this season playing support almost exclusively. The biggest problem support maining is -----> top lane.

However, I can help mid, jg, supp, and adc if i play well, so if top lane is doing poorly, I just have to focus on doing the best i can for everyone else until top can become relevant again.

I think you have some ideas, my only issue with MMR is that it is invisible. I want to know the level I am playing .

I recently went on a huge win streak to the point where na.op.gg said i should skip divisions then.... the longest losing streak of my life..

I titled uncontrollably and lost like 11 straight, every kind of loss, we threw, we got dominated. I'm slowly recovering from my dumpstering of my own MMR, but I would like to see the mmr of me and my teammates. I feel like it would give me a better understanding of my rank, and the rank of where the games feels my skill level is currently.

KazaJhodo1 votes

Yeah top is the hardest to effect as a support, unless you're like... shen, and often has really powerful champions in it if they get fed.

My chief concern with mmr is two things at the moment, one its a history and people play vastly differently depending on a whole variety of conditions. Meaning one day you play awesome, another day you may be pissed about work or something and play terrible. Instead of just moving up and down the ladder you have this mmr ghost recording your play and trying to accurately place you.... or something.

I say, get rid of that and just let people go, it'll sort itself out. Add my suggested system to do it quicker, a bonus system for in a row wins and losses to do it even quicker. Use the divisions/tiers- even lp itself, to match games up. Match everyone exactly, not by an mmr value but a plat 3 vs plat 3, bronze 4 vs bronze 4 so on. Now that we have lane selections you can even match the plat3 and plat3 against each other in lane. This way you don't end up with a plat3 vs a bronze4 and a plat3 carrying a game for free. Obviously this wouldn't happen because they are more than one division apart, but its an extreme example to illustrate my point.

Besides that, no matter what you do, mmr is effected by your teammates. Meaning its not an accurate representation of your play, its a representation of your play with the 4 random people on your team, every game you play. Even if wins and losses weren't effecting mmr, and solely your play was, it still would be inaccurate because other players effect your play. When you go in with a teammate, you expect them to do certain things, when they fail and you die, it makes your mmr inaccurate. When someone feeds and you can't do anything, it effects your mmr. When no one wards and you have no lane control, it effects your mmr. Mmr is actually an abstract idea, not a true representation of your play- just a representation of sorts always manipulated by you and your teammates.

To add some balance, I don't actually know how mmr works, I can only speculate. Being a programmer myself, this is what I think is going on, but I'm just estimating how the system works. My thoughts are based on what I see taking place in games and what I hear from various players from various division.

Your description here is more than likely a combination of things. You got really lucky with teams going up, the your luck ran out, then you started to tilt and the loss streak ensues. I've been there, up and down many times. Which causes me to focus very hard on if/when i'm tilting and getting better at not tilting. I mean that goes right back to mmr, if you play bad you should fall divisions, if you play good you should climb, we don't need mmr to do some other calculation.

Just let people go where they are going to go. BUT take their performance into account in order to bring balance to the force, like I propose in my post. This brings a significant amount of balance to the ladder. After all, if you are losing a game and still being effective- when it is the hardest to be effective, you are doing something right- and chances are don't deserve the same lp kick in the pants that the bad players deserve.

Hello I am Bird2 votes

Soraka

XxKyzilienxX1 votes

The thing about supporting as a main is your MMR isnt going to be as high as someone who persay is a mid zed and gets 20 kills a game. So youre matched with great players on your team while the zed has the terrible ones. Thats where MMR falls off, if you get KS a lot and use allies as shield for whatever reason than your MMR will go up and the when you get placed in a team with low MMR because of your high MMR your team will fail. And the opposite goes for if you get your kills stolen, now you are a good player with low MMR so you get to have good high MMR players with you and you can climb easily. It isnt a good system in my opinion since it doesnt judge how you play, just your end game score

guuunter1 votes

DIS GAME IS CRAAAAPAPPPPPP

KazaJhodo1 votes

Its a great game, just needs some tweaking. Even without it, its still a great game.

TheLittlestLulu1 votes

I've seen a lot of dumb suggestions for ranked, but "remove mmr" has got to be the top of that list.

KazaJhodo1 votes

Then you don't understand how the solution would work. You don't need mmr. You can do the same thing with lp and performance based lp rewards. You should read it again, if you even read it. It makes sense. lol

It may not be a great idea, but it still makes sense. At least give constructive critisim like Win10cent did. Arguments that actually make sense and qualify what you think. Calling someone elses idea dumb without any definition of why it is dumb, is dumb. lol

Man up. Qualify your shit.

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