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Suggestions on how to solve Rengar problems and adding proper counterplay to it

Rengylvania·6/14/2017, 12:31:16 PM·131 votes·4,087 views

What I will show you first is the early concept about the rework but I still wanted to share it to give you the "first" insights to where the final project got inspired from

The idea behind it was to give Rengar true options to make him feel like a true hunter aka give him tools to fight each single prey and adapt towards it.

That early version Rengar could earn to upgrade each single empower,while giving him 3 choices available to choose from

Something like:

You get your second bonetooth stack.Now you could choose to upgrade your empQ with one out of the 3 upgrades that were available for it

Why it fail

Reasons behind it why I dropped mostly of this project it is because we cant have a champion ingame to choose 1 upgrade out of 3 for 3/4 of his own spells.That's just overkill and it shall make you feel like you are playing 2 shapeshifting champions in one.This shall also be hard for the playerbase to actually adapt to Rengar

The Final Project After talking with other highelo rengar mains and dedicated rengar players and also to other role mains this is my final work

Passive-current version but cant gain ferc without hitting enemies Bonetooth-Same like the current version but instead you gain the ability to adapt in what the hunt needs 1 Stack-Passive 2 Stack-Q 3 Stack-W 4 Stack-E 5 Stack-R

NOTE

You can lvlup one of those spell in your preference aka you can upgrade E first than Q The only exception is the passive and R.Passive always upgrades first and R only the last( YOU CAN ONLY USE THE SECOND PART OF THE R UPGRADE ONCE YOU HIT LVL16 ) RENGAR LEAP DOES ONLY SCALE USING HIS KIT.NO OTHER BONUS OUTSIDE it will INCREASE IT'S LEAP RANGE

Bonetooth first stack does give bonus leap range (nothing much to explain here)

Q-Same as old Q but it's unable to crit and you only gain BONUS AD and not BONUS ATSP (Reasons behind these changes is to discourage more tanky/bruiser Rengar playstyle which abuse the free atsp as a free dmg steroid)

Now into the Trophy system stack for empQ

Rengar Q can crit(only the basic attack portion).The CRIT DMG is modified like yasuo aka less % dmg from crits (This does solve the problem around critgar while still keeping him.If you take Ninja tabis+Rand Omen which does reduce the crit dmg you take by -20% it can def give rooms for players to survive the 1shot combos) Or the using of Steark/GA/ DD (this is an important item for adc to counter rengar and it shall later be explained as why below)

W-Rengar roars and challenges the nearest(or you can point&click one target that shall be affected by the roar additional effects aside the dmg) After it's finished rengar gets healed based on the dmg he dealed(the bonus scales with bonus AD) He also gets a % increase dmg towards that target in case he wins the brawl.(If the %dmg increase proves to be to much we can completely remove it)

CD is something like Fiora's W cd BUT it's cd gets reduced if you use it on jungle monsters

TL:DR Think of the W like this: aoe roar>Mark, Attack, /end of mark/ -> heal from % of dmg dealt

EMPW

IF Rengar deals an X amount of dmg towards that target.He gets the cc immunity effect

Now on the reason as why I did mention DD(death dance)before as a way to counter it for squishy targets. DD mitigates dmg aka less burst taken from a bursty type champion.So it's really simple get dd>rengar will deal less dmg aka ->Rengar shall heal less from his W

E-Same as current bola but here are the changes to the empE

Gives him the ability to leap towards that target. NOTE:For balance purposes it can only works towards champs and epic monsters.Even though rengar isn't supposed to be a team fighter he can at least have tools to followup and also some spicy jumps for dragon/baron steals&escapes)

R- Less notification radius compering to the live server ULT(the number changes is really low not something big to make it sound like I am making the notification radius way to small )also we remove the free crit from it

EMPR(this is a permanent effect aka you will not have like to get ferocity and then cast R to gain the empower effect)

Rengar gets bonus ms while walking towards the marked target and once he hits lvl16 he gains the old maphack back

I am going to be honest Rengar ULT itself is a pain in the ass to be balanced.

If I could make a change to Rengar kit as a whole I prob would've picked to just give him a new ultimate so he can finally be balanced out. But doing that to the Rengar mains community is like removing a core spell to "popular" champions like Riven passive/Yasuo's dash/Lee wardhop etc etc

This version of the ult takes both good and bad worlds from both the worlds. It gives less notification radius plus gives rengar the smooth gameplay being able to jump again like it used to and during the later stages of the game in which you finally get to use your 5th stack this no longers makes it to feel as "Thrill of Zoning" post lategame stage while still maintaining the threshold to give the time that the prey needs to escape

53 Comments

EvanThomas6/14/2017, 1:57:23 PM12 votes

Doesn't the whole "evolving an ability" sound familiar to you? Khazix It's too close to Kha'zix's identity.

DrAlphaChad6/14/2017, 4:29:31 PM8 votes

Riot You killed 50%+ of the Rengar players with the Rework and by dumping him down to Azir levels we can clearly see that old was far easyer to balance that this one .Even tho current Rengar is more healthy he is more garbadge and more clunky than Pre-Rework Aatrox.

DrAlphaChad6/14/2017, 5:16:42 PM3 votes

I Want Riot to have a conversation with 1+ milion points D1+ Rengar player to discuss what they want to do with him Instead of Relying on the Feedback on Bronze and Silver ADC players

Mannny6/15/2017, 12:48:30 AM2 votes

Cant make a Khazix 2.0

sorry Riot it doesn't work like that

Emerald Fang6/14/2017, 3:42:44 PM2 votes

I feel like all of these rengar posts are from 1-2 people considering they popped up overnight. Besides the incoherent grammar it's not the worst idea.

Rengylvania6/14/2017, 1:22:36 PM2 votes

Forgot to mention that also this new W idea does add even more easier points to stand out as what champions picks does give Rengar a hard time to deal with

Aka Short trade burst champs like Renekton or range champion which without proper use/control of the bushes Rengar will find a hard time to keep up with in toplane

Ithil Snek6/14/2017, 3:18:08 PM1 votes

I really like the idea, but what about making Bonetooths a currency for Rengar (which he would gain by killing champs and monsters in the jungle) and then he uses it to choose ONE upgrade for each of his abilities (kind of similar to GP's Silver Serpents)? I think it would be clearer than 3 different upgrades that appear above one single ability, plus it keeps the "Hunter becoming stronger by hunting and addapting to his preys" thematic. Of course there will be a lot of number to adjust (how much stacks granted deppending on what unit you kill, how much does one upgrade costs, and the list goes on...) What do you think?

Legacy Hydralpha6/14/2017, 1:53:06 PM1 votes

So what I gather is that Bonetooth Necklace gives you upgrades to your abilities and ultimate similar to someone like Viktor or Khazix. Which is a good idea and actually gives us interesting Bonetooth Necklace stacks (unlike the free AD post-rework) and honestly I'd be down for this idea. It's a new way of using the old mechanic of upgrading abilities.

Dreadlocks6/14/2017, 5:30:58 PM1 votes

Hey man as a Rengar main (old 1 trick) I appreciate you taking the time to write this up. Although I like some of your ideas, its complex and a bit confusing for even someone as experienced as myself on the champion. The W idea is interesting, and i could see it going more into his bonetooth or R ability rather than the W. I really liked how it tied into the heal though, so that part definitely has potential.

I like the idea of giving Rengar more tools on his basic abilties, and the grounded effect on his E is also something i hinted towards as well. The issue with balancing Old Rengar's kit (which i love for many reasons, GD that Q looks way cooler now that i cant use it ..) is that he does too much damage with very little counter play. So in my personal opinion, he either needs more tools with less damage, or his old damage->most importantly the Reliability of it back, but give his R more counterplay. As you suggested, something completely different, but still allows him to enter fights w.o a brush, or as i suggested, remove the camo/invis part on the initiation and put it in the escape

Either way, i'm happy with either of those.. I also think maybe the passive bonetooth we have now can stay forlong as we change his abilities to scale with the bonus AD rather than how his old Q was total. But again, passives like that tend to be extremely hard to balance around given how kits/items can influence them.

CE0 Of Racism6/14/2017, 6:26:46 PM1 votes

You didn't mention the anything changed to the Khazix Vs Rengar Mini Quest

PROJECT Katarìna6/14/2017, 6:51:42 PM1 votes

Old one was easier to balance because all you had to do was huddle around the adc to protect them because his Q was single target

Rengooo6/14/2017, 9:44:00 PM1 votes

I noticed your comment around why you would remove the attack speed steroid from his empowered Q, due to it making bruiser Rengar to strong.

But what if you just made it scale primarily off of bonus AD? For example: Rengar gains 20% attack speed plus a further 30% per 100 bonus AD. Essentially requiring an AD build to be effective.

Or, alternatively if you wanted to encourage a crit build then simply make it give him attack speed equal to his crit chance?

Just some food for thought.

zYaichi6/14/2017, 10:16:41 PM1 votes

Riot : Q:nice meme

Salson6/14/2017, 3:31:19 PM1 votes

You can just make his Q work like Dravens, so any extra damage can't crit.

xxJopexx6/14/2017, 10:45:43 PM1 votes

Rengars Q should be able to crit. I mean they should just nerf it if they want...