Kayle + why true damage is a good thing

five oh tree ·2/20/2019, 1:38:57 PM·56 votes·16,493 views

I'm going to preface this with a statement: I'm making this post because none of you listen. Yes, none of you listen. I shouldn't have to be writing this when RIOT themselves have justified true damage as a balance lever, and especially when new Kayle isn't out yet.

With that being said, let's dig into the reworked kit's seemingly only controversial point: Her level 16 form, Transcendent. Or rather, its true damage.

Think about her kit. How does she fare against other champions in lane? She has no disengage, no engage, and no hard CC. She doesn't even have ranged autoattacks until level 11. She will be bodied by bruisers top lane and poked to death by mages in mid. Only at level 11 will she be able to fight back effectively. You have 20 minutes to gain an advantage over a squishy melee carry that's vulnerable. Use it.

As for the true damage, this is not a bad thing. Riot has emphasized, multiple times, that they want you to counterPLAY true damage. They don't want you to stack defenses to beat certain champs; they want you to land your cc and neutralize the threats with actual gameplay. This is why they don't care about the boards crying about Vayne w, Fiora passive, or anything else. This is the intended gameplay of these champions. These are abilities that are supposed to be threats to everyone. In Kayle's case, she doesn't even get it until level 16, and afaik it's not % health true damage. This means you can at least stack health-heavy builds and get more survivability out of it.

For a moment, let's say they wanted to make kayle, but they were willing to listen to the boards and take out the true damage. How do they make her a threat to tanks? She is a hypercarry afterall, so she has to be able to.

% HP on every auto? That won't become unbalance-able due to rageblade, I'm sure.

Armor Pen/ Shred? That won't get abused by cheese burst builds to nuke squishies like an assassin (item 3100 item 3285 item 3146 ), I'm sure.

True damage is the only thing that will modify the damage to squishies very little. They were likely already taking a high % of the waves' magic damage, so level 16 won't be too much of a spike in damage against them.

There's no point in thinking true damage is a bad mechanic. It's expensive to the power budget and encourages intuitive gameplay past building X Y or Z to win.

TL;DR: Kayle isn't out yet and flat true damage is the healthiest form of tank killing in the game.

Edit: before everyone jumps on me about her Q already having shred, I'm talking about relying solely on shred alone to kill tanks. The values would have to be high for that to occur, which would in turn allow it to be used to pop squishies.

80 Comments

The Ecdysiast2/20/2019, 1:45:40 PM38 votes

Well, it was the healthiest form of tank killing, back before they reduced the overall health in a full tank's build by around 800. Now, not so much, because Void Staff and Liandry's both already received powerful buffs, as did all armor penetration items. Giving a champion true damage instead of making them put some of their power into a penetration item despite the fact the only stat to defend against true damage was so heavily nerfed isn't making them give a fair trade off.

However, the fact she doesn't get her true damage until late game makes it perfectly fine. She isn't like Darius or Garen, who can do a burst of 400 true damage from a single ability starting at level 6 and growing to over 1000 damage by the time she has a little bit of on-hit true damage.

The entire team2/20/2019, 1:42:56 PM24 votes

This man gets it!

Almost all of the boards seem to hate true damage because “hurr durr I lost to them when I am supposed to be immortal due to all the items I gotten”. Glad someone can see this at a better perspective.

Anime Fizz2/20/2019, 2:54:12 PM14 votes

Why does a champ with range aoe AAs, with mixed damage AND mixed shred already need true damage?

Its just tacked on for no reason to make her completely overpowered at lvl 16, this is not good design.

I dont know why her ult has a random AOE nuke at it too, its just more stuff tacked on into the game for literally no reason.

Iota Theta2/20/2019, 2:03:10 PM11 votes

I’m now wondering if those waves are dodge-able.

I do want to counter on your comment fir her armor/mr shred, and that’s that it is percent based, which does make it naturally better against higher resist values than against squishies who don’t build as much.

I’m hesitant to call true damage the “healthiest form of tank killing” when % penetration items exist and that’s what their purpose is. Part is because tanks have lower total health than in the past, and part because we already have a lot of it in ways that’s hard to counterplay. Vayne’s is either CC/kill or force her to swap targets, Yi’s is CC/kill. Most Fighters can get it by running Conquerer. Fiora has the most counterplay on hers since it requires the vital procs. This makes me hope Kayle’s AoE waves have a chance to miss, as it could add an extra layer of counterplay. Cc/kill isn’t always counterplay in the sense that most people mean and just hoping you burst them faster than they burst you.

My personal stance is that % pen/shred is the healthiest form of tank killing. The other issue with flat true damage as a form of tank killing is it’s equally, if not more effective against squishies, since they don’t have as much health.

Given this, I am getting more ok with Kayle’s, since it’s only after level 16.

Critmaster Garen2/20/2019, 2:36:16 PM8 votes

she already has resistance shred on her q.

they could also have just kept her current passive and make her shred or pierce stacking 3% armor/mr per attack at lvl 16.

not to mention shes going to build item 3124 anyways, which additionally pierces armor/mr.

the true damage is entirely uneccessary. all it does is further devalue champions with % damage reduction in their kits, aswell as the champions with inbuilt true damage. the more true damage you add into champion kits the less reason there is to pick the champions who have it inbuilt.

what is the point of giving fighters and tanks short lived % damage reduction steroids that are supposed to be powerful defensive tools, if you add easily available true damage to more and more champions who then proceed to ignore this mechanic?

GripaAviara2/20/2019, 3:16:04 PM8 votes

I call it now, Kayle will be next master Yi/Nasus like-nightmare.

No champions build on this late game OP philosophy will be a healthy champion. While it works fine in high ELO, in low ELO it's enough a feeder lane/jungle and voila you have a game where you want to smash the keyboard because you have a balanced lane, and hop comes X from another lane and smash you to bits because of matchmaking

While I can't directly analyze Kayle as it's not in the game, her kit is busted on first look.

The thigh guy2/20/2019, 7:47:20 PM6 votes

TLDR. Op says tanks should remain useless because they are tanks and they should have to dodge things.

Kazekiba2/20/2019, 2:05:33 PM6 votes

She DOES get ranged attacks at level 6, but this is gated by stacking her passive thankfully.

And it's not like Riot's ever made a champion attack fast and have an invulnerability button that also does a lot of AoE damage who does true damage on every auto.... MasterYi As long as it's somewhere in the range of Twitch/Yi and not, say, 40% of all of Kayle's damage turns into True Damage. I still think she can get by without it, since it's not like anyone ever argued Tristana/Twitch needed True damage (more, in Twitch's case. His DoT is somewhat negligible) and yet they're top of the line Hypercarries. Not sure how strong Trist is right now, but when she IS strong she's a nightmare. She does have a good chunk of Magic damage, though, so you can't just build armor and completely negate her especially when she has Shiv + Stormrazor.

Handy Sandy 2/20/2019, 4:06:20 PM5 votes

I think Kayle is going to be one of the healthiest lategame scaling champions. When you look at other lategame champions Azir Cassiopeia Fiora Kassadin KogMaw VayneNasus Twitch Jax for some of these, early game laning is their strong point. The others require 1 item and then they're as strong as any other champion out there. They're not even that weak or not weak enough. Kayle fixes this problem, no matter how broken the items she's buying or what runes she takes, she will always be weak early game. There is no build for early game power that you can build on Kayle.