Kayle + why true damage is a good thing

five oh tree ··56 votes·16,493 views

I'm going to preface this with a statement: I'm making this post because none of you listen. Yes, none of you listen. I shouldn't have to be writing this when RIOT themselves have justified true damage as a balance lever, and especially when new Kayle isn't out yet.

With that being said, let's dig into the reworked kit's seemingly only controversial point: Her level 16 form, Transcendent. Or rather, its true damage.

Think about her kit. How does she fare against other champions in lane? She has no disengage, no engage, and no hard CC. She doesn't even have ranged autoattacks until level 11. She will be bodied by bruisers top lane and poked to death by mages in mid. Only at level 11 will she be able to fight back effectively. You have 20 minutes to gain an advantage over a squishy melee carry that's vulnerable. Use it.

As for the true damage, this is not a bad thing. Riot has emphasized, multiple times, that they want you to counterPLAY true damage. They don't want you to stack defenses to beat certain champs; they want you to land your cc and neutralize the threats with actual gameplay. This is why they don't care about the boards crying about Vayne w, Fiora passive, or anything else. This is the intended gameplay of these champions. These are abilities that are supposed to be threats to everyone. In Kayle's case, she doesn't even get it until level 16, and afaik it's not % health true damage. This means you can at least stack health-heavy builds and get more survivability out of it.

For a moment, let's say they wanted to make kayle, but they were willing to listen to the boards and take out the true damage. How do they make her a threat to tanks? She is a hypercarry afterall, so she has to be able to.

% HP on every auto? That won't become unbalance-able due to rageblade, I'm sure.

Armor Pen/ Shred? That won't get abused by cheese burst builds to nuke squishies like an assassin (item 3100 item 3285 item 3146 ), I'm sure.

True damage is the only thing that will modify the damage to squishies very little. They were likely already taking a high % of the waves' magic damage, so level 16 won't be too much of a spike in damage against them.

There's no point in thinking true damage is a bad mechanic. It's expensive to the power budget and encourages intuitive gameplay past building X Y or Z to win.

TL;DR: Kayle isn't out yet and flat true damage is the healthiest form of tank killing in the game.

Edit: before everyone jumps on me about her Q already having shred, I'm talking about relying solely on shred alone to kill tanks. The values would have to be high for that to occur, which would in turn allow it to be used to pop squishies.

80 Comments

The Ecdysiast38 votes

Well, it was the healthiest form of tank killing, back before they reduced the overall health in a full tank's build by around 800. Now, not so much, because Void Staff and Liandry's both already received powerful buffs, as did all armor penetration items. Giving a champion true damage instead of making them put some of their power into a penetration item despite the fact the only stat to defend against true damage was so heavily nerfed isn't making them give a fair trade off.

However, the fact she doesn't get her true damage until late game makes it perfectly fine. She isn't like Darius or Garen, who can do a burst of 400 true damage from a single ability starting at level 6 and growing to over 1000 damage by the time she has a little bit of on-hit true damage.

TheSingularity5 votes

Well, it was the healthiest form of tank killing, back before they reduced the overall health in a full tank's build by around 800

Tank item health reduction equates to 1400 armor reduced by 95 MR reduced by 75

The Ecdysiast2 votes

{quoted}

Tank item health reduction equates to 1400 armor reduced by 95 MR reduced by 75

I'll have to go over the numbers myself. 800 was kind of a spitball number, but armor and MR were increased, not reduced. So I don't see where you're getting that from.

TheSingularity3 votes

check my boards profile. I got the math in multiple posts <3 Then you can use it for future posts

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

check my boards profile. I got the math in multiple posts <3 Then you can use it for future posts

If it's on your boards profile, just link me to it. You're the one who needs to provide the evidence.

TheSingularity3 votes

Straight copy paste

Their items have been nerfed to the ground

Lost 200 when item 3194 replaced item 3102. Gap shrunk to 150. item 3742 lost 175 hp item 1401 item 1413 10% bonus health item 3190 400 HP item 3143 100 HP item 3800 250 HP item 3065 50 HP item 3068 75 HP item 3083 200 HP

Tanks have lost a horrifying 1400 HP. So that's why I can't get 6k hp anymore...

Like, a huge help would be increasing final item costs, but then giving better stats. OG warmogs 1000 HP, 500 randuins/visage/deadmans/sunfire, 600 HP glory

Edit: MR and armour bonus round! armour=20 item 3075 + 30 item 3143 + 5 item 3025 +20 item 3026 +20 removal of ancient golem = 95 armor lost MR=15 item 3102 + 15 item 3065 + 45item 3026 =75 magic resist lost

The Ecdysiast1 votes

You're wrong and/or willfully lying about several points. To be clear, we're talking about the class-wide nerf to tank items in 7.9 and any subsequent changes. Changes from three years prior to that cannot be included.

First and most strikingly, you outright lied about threeitems. Deadman's did not lose 175 HP . It only lost 75, because almost immediately after it was introduced two years earlier, it was properly dropped to match Sunfire at 500. The same goes for Righteous Glory, which only lost 100, not 250. And Cinderhulk, which had lost 10% two years prior but then regained 5%.

It's strange to me you correctly adjusted visage and randuin's to account for their buffs after the tank update, but incorrectly included stats from two years prior for deadman's and righteous. And it can't be that your post was too old, because those disparities are from totally different time periods.

Second, you didn't actually include the armor and MR gains which specifically make your point that armor/mr were lost overall false. Alongside the fact Helm actually currently has more HP than Banshee's ever did, and you mistakenly included Locket which wasn't ever a tank item, and both GA and Banshee's which also aren't tank items any more.

So let's look at a full build containing the items that lost the most HP, and see how they compare to pre-7.9:

[one slot for boots] 100 item 3143 75 item 3742
200 item 3083 75 item 3068 75 item 3800

(Didn't include Cinderhulk because there is no combination of items besides running 5 warmog's that'll make the conversion of that 5% to more than 50)

So at max, it was a loss of 525 HP full build. Tanks didn't lose 1400 HP. You can't include more than 5 items when calculating the loss because you can't build more than five. If we made that mistake, then we'd falsely conclude that tanks actually have 2000 more HP than before, because you acted like they have the ability to build 10 items.

To be fair though, that does mean I was wrong. But I was wrong in the opposite direction. 800 was too much. It's, in fact, less severe than I'd thought. Thank you for making me look for the actual numbers though.


As for armor and mr, again you're either quite wrong or intentionally dishonest.

Armor: Randuin's lost none in that time, Thornmail did lose 20 but doesn't support the point about true damage because it gained 250 HP (bigger than the loss from any single item), Gauntlet has lost none (another case of you using numbers from 2-3 years too far back), and as stated before you can't include items that were reworked into not being tank items so GA is not included. Nor can you include buffs that are FOUR years older than the point in time we're discussing, so ancient golem is out too.

That brings the total armor loss to: 20 From Thornmail alone, which doesn't support our point because it gained far more than 20 armor worth in flat health, making it better against true damage than before.

But even that isn't true, because every other item that got health nerfs got armor buffs to compensate. Because they weren't trying to nerf the items against the right damage type, they were trying to nerf the items against the opposite damage type. If you do the math, the "total effective health" (the hit points you can tank when including armor for physical damage and mr for magic damage) remained the same for the right damage type, meaning it was only reduced for the opposite one. They didn't want people having so much defense against magic when they built an armor item and vice versa.

The actual numbers are: Total Armor INCREASED: 70 from item 3742 item 3068 item 3800

Magic Resist: Again, not including items that were reworked into not being tank items, so no Banshee's or GA. And Visage lost none during the time period we're discussing. I will include the fact Adaptive replaced Banshee's, so it was a decrease of 15 for tanks.

Total MR lost: 15


TL;DR: Total HP lost from a full build, using the items that were nerfed the hardest, is only 525. Total armor lost from items overall is (-)70. There wasn't a loss of armor. There was in fact an increase of armor by 70. Total MR lost from items overall is 15.

Granted, you were on my side about true damage to begin with. But now I see it may not actually be as big a problem as I'd thought. Anyone who could get to 6000 HP on a normal build before (Sion, Cho'gath) can actually do it more easily now thanks to changes they've received outside of items.

TheSingularity3 votes

You're wrong and/or willfully lying about several points. To be clear, we're talking about the class-wide nerf to tank items in 7.9 and any subsequent changes. Changes from three years prior to that cannot be included.

Yeah, that's where the clash is. As I said, straight copy and paste. (tbh adjusting the numbers didn't feel worth it) Otherwise my numbers are correct. The goal of the OP was to highlight just how much worth of sheer stat tanks have lost over the years, which it does.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, that's where the clash is. As I said, straight copy and paste. (tbh adjusting the numbers didn't feel worth it) Otherwise my numbers are correct. The goal of the OP was to highlight just how much worth of sheer stat tanks have lost over the years, which it does.

Your numbers weren't correct though. You were using on-release stats as if they hadn't been adjusted a few patches later for normal balance. Tanks didn't "lose" 175 form Deadman's because they didn't actually have it in a balanced state to begin with.

TheSingularity2 votes

Deadmans once sat at 600 hp. It is now 425, hence the 175. Whether that value was balanced or not, it was health that was once avaliable, that isn't anymore.

PB4UAME2 votes

Only very, very recently were they were slightly increased (by at most 10, usually by literally 5 points) in exchange for losing 100ish HP (a large net nerf).

Compare any current tank item to its release state, and its fucking SAD. I miss 1250 HP Warmogs, and 100 armor frozen heart with 2,000 radius aura, that's a 25% attackspeed slow instead of 15%, and oh, it also gave 25% CDR, and was cheaper. . . Or old thornmail, how I miss it so. 2,000 gold for 100 armor, and reflecting 30% of all incoming auto attacks back to the attacker as magic damage.

Yets42402 votes

Remember the days of lategame having either 400/300 resists and 4k HP, or 300/200 resists and nearly 6k HP? Now that shit is literally impossible. Maybe the latter could be done on a like 10+ stack Cho'Gath, but god damn have tanks and defense in general been gutted.

SpyKayle3 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FbXXfc3i,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-02-20T13:45:40.695+0000)

Well, it was the healthiest form of tank killing, back before they reduced the overall health in a full tank's build by around 800. Now, not so much, because Void Staff and Liandry's both already received powerful buffs, as did all armor penetration items. Giving a champion true damage instead of making them put some of their power into a penetration item despite the fact the only stat to defend against true damage was so heavily nerfed isn't making them give a fair trade off.

However, the fact she doesn't get her true damage until late game makes it perfectly fine. She isn't like Darius or Garen, who can do a burst of 800 true damage starting at level 6.

Darius? 800 true damage at 6? Nani? His ult when fully stacked at level 6 does about 300 - 400 damage depending if he has a lot of ad. Nothing more.

The entire team24 votes

This man gets it!

Almost all of the boards seem to hate true damage because “hurr durr I lost to them when I am supposed to be immortal due to all the items I gotten”. Glad someone can see this at a better perspective.

Saianna14 votes

no, this man doesn't get it. You guys just want more damage.

Damage wins against armor in lategame. Add to that true damage and armor becomes useless even harder. Now when you want to "counterplay against true damage" it means you have to dish out EVEN MORE damage EVEN FASTER.

Kayle did NOT needed true damage. Her old armor/mr shred was pretty solid and if you wanteds the passive to scale better, she could have unlocked more stacks on level 16 or something.

Giving her true damage for endgame is the most lazy way of champion balancing you can go with. She might end up the most balanced champion, but her true damage is yet another powercreep added to the game.

SuperTopLFBottom3 votes

Lmao more like you guys are biased mfckers nothing more and nothing less.

Kayle keeping her cancerous i autowin the game because i didnt lose in 25 mins is great and cool cuz she is a ranged statchecker.

Bruisers being semi viable thanks to conq is atrocious and basically a war crime.

Anime Fizz14 votes

Why does a champ with range aoe AAs, with mixed damage AND mixed shred already need true damage?

Its just tacked on for no reason to make her completely overpowered at lvl 16, this is not good design.

I dont know why her ult has a random AOE nuke at it too, its just more stuff tacked on into the game for literally no reason.

five oh tree 5 votes

While I agree with her ult not needing a random AOE nuke tacked on, I think the true damage is appropriate.

She has a short ranged, short duration shred that is barely AOE. At later parts of the game, that simply doesn't cut it against tanks that can keep her CC'd for the shred's duration.

If they didn't want to add the true damage and make her extra strong late game, there would be no need for a weak early game. That part of her power budget would need to be compensated for in another area of her kit. That's a whole other discussion, but I don't think it would be a "good design" either; it would just be a different one.

Still agree about the ult though.

Sir Saltarin8 votes

Her ultimate has an aoe nuke on it because it makes her not able to atack while she's casting it.

gerbe6 votes

she can’t attack during her ulti so that’s the damage she’s gonna get while she’s casting it. it makes you think about if you want to ult a tank to get damage in while they jump into the enemy team or protect your teammate who’s about to die and risk your own life while you’re casting it.

Iota Theta11 votes

I’m now wondering if those waves are dodge-able.

I do want to counter on your comment fir her armor/mr shred, and that’s that it is percent based, which does make it naturally better against higher resist values than against squishies who don’t build as much.

I’m hesitant to call true damage the “healthiest form of tank killing” when % penetration items exist and that’s what their purpose is. Part is because tanks have lower total health than in the past, and part because we already have a lot of it in ways that’s hard to counterplay. Vayne’s is either CC/kill or force her to swap targets, Yi’s is CC/kill. Most Fighters can get it by running Conquerer. Fiora has the most counterplay on hers since it requires the vital procs. This makes me hope Kayle’s AoE waves have a chance to miss, as it could add an extra layer of counterplay. Cc/kill isn’t always counterplay in the sense that most people mean and just hoping you burst them faster than they burst you.

My personal stance is that % pen/shred is the healthiest form of tank killing. The other issue with flat true damage as a form of tank killing is it’s equally, if not more effective against squishies, since they don’t have as much health.

Given this, I am getting more ok with Kayle’s, since it’s only after level 16.

five oh tree 1 votes

While I understand that it can be large chunks against a squishies health bar, there are more health + ad/ap items available to builds than armor/mr + ad/ap. Because it is a flat amount of true damage, they can still build defense against it in this way.

Items such as item 3078 item 3071 item 3151 item 3916 item 3161 can all help. There are many more, but you get the idea.

I know those aren't taken on (most) marksman. However, item 3046 just got a pretty decent shield passive that can help.

item 3814 for assassins (or marksmen if they ever feel like changing build).

Flat true damage also means you can still use Stoneplate against it effectively.

Iota Theta4 votes

This is all true, but it’s still much less health than a tank builds, is my point, so it’ll still kill them faster than a tank. But that’s the downside if playing a squishier champ. But if your argument is that it’s so she can be a hypercarry tank killer, than there are better ways.

%Armor pen/shred also means you can use Stoneplate against it effectively, because of the health, but it’s also relatively better against tankier champs than flat true damage, which is the purpose of a tank killer.

A tank killer does just what the name says, and should have their damage focused into that aspect and less into squisier targets. Often times, ways given to champs to allow them to kill tanks leads them to be generally oppressive over all. Vayne’s crit Q build was hated because her kit gave her extra tank killing power, she just needed the AS for it, and she could build to burst squishies with her Q. Champs running Conquerer are beating tanks in fights while building to burst squishier champs. Kog’maw just deletes everyone as the game goes on. If you want to design a champ as a tank killer, it should be done in a way that reduces the ability to be strong against all.

That being said, Kayle’s true damage is a sign of her hypercarry nature, like Kog’maw’s sheer late game DPS. It takes a long time for that to turn on, especially with how she is early, and that’s the reward. I’m just hoping her true damage waves are not on-hits so Rageblade doesn’t double it.

Critmaster Garen8 votes

she already has resistance shred on her q.

they could also have just kept her current passive and make her shred or pierce stacking 3% armor/mr per attack at lvl 16.

not to mention shes going to build item 3124 anyways, which additionally pierces armor/mr.

the true damage is entirely uneccessary. all it does is further devalue champions with % damage reduction in their kits, aswell as the champions with inbuilt true damage. the more true damage you add into champion kits the less reason there is to pick the champions who have it inbuilt.

what is the point of giving fighters and tanks short lived % damage reduction steroids that are supposed to be powerful defensive tools, if you add easily available true damage to more and more champions who then proceed to ignore this mechanic?

five oh tree 3 votes

Riot has moved away from % damage reduction steroids. I can think of Alistar Garen and Warwick who have it. Malphite and Sejuani have armor/mr steroids, so you can count them too if you want. Who else? Orianna Leona Kennen Singed Galio Give armor/mr.

Irelia kind of

So in the end, it invalidates AT MOST 10% of the champ pool, and that's considering that I missed some (Which I'm sure I did).

So yes, she has increased value against these champs after level 16. I don't think it devalues their champion since no kit revolves around not facing true damage. I also think that it's okay for certain mechanics to counter others. It can lead to rock-paper-scissors, but we're far from there.

I mean, does Gangplank existing devalue every champion in the game with CC?

DCYOUNG8884 votes

Just adding on to the champs that have damage reduction abilities that you didn’t list yet are also Braum, Annie, Gragas, Malzahar, Master Yi, and Galio also.

Fízz v22 votes

They havent moved away from it tho, literally so many new releases have dmg reduction. Irelia, Galio and WW. They gave it to Annie too

kingDeDeDarius2 votes

Honestly though, I don't mind this much at all compared to fiora and vayne who have self peel/ability blockers on top of insane mobility, and insane levels if % HP true damage

Critmaster Garen5 votes

{quoted}

Honestly though, I don't mind this much at all compared to fiora and vayne who have self peel/ability blockers on top of insane mobility, and insane levels if % HP true damage

i dont mind fiora as much, since you can play around the mechanic to a degree. you can outplay her by juking her q and her attempts to poke at your vitals.

the new kayle seems to have the same problem as vayne. there is no way to play around that mechanic. its again just attached to her auto attacks, and again on a ranged (by that point in the game) champion.

i just dont understand why riot keeps doing this and applies different design values to melee and ranged champions. kayles new kit seems still to be entirely stat check design, balanced around a broken power curve.

Iota Theta1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FbXXfc3i,comment-id=000500010000,timestamp=2019-02-20T15:17:01.469+0000)

i dont mind fiora as much, since you can play around the mechanic to a degree. you can outplay her by juking her q and her attempts to poke at your vitals.

the new kayle seems to have the same problem as vayne. there is no way to play around that mechanic. its again just attached to her auto attacks, and again on a ranged (by that point in the game) champion.

i just dont understand why riot keeps doing this and applies different design values to melee and ranged champions. kayles new kit seems still to be entirely stat check design, balanced around a broken power curve.

I’m curious as to the actual amount. Likely flat true damage, but how high will it be? There’s some vulnerability with her ult in that she has to cast it and can’t attack it, but that only matters if she ults someone else.

I’m currently mainly grateful it’s locked behind her level 16 when she spends 10 levels as a squishier immobile melee and the AoE not nearly as bad as her current E-Runaan’s coverage. Also immensely glad it’s not on-hit true damage so guinsoo’s and runaan’s can’t make it worse.

Sir Saltarin2 votes

what is the point of giving fighters and tanks short lived % damage reduction steroids that are supposed to be powerful defensive tools, if you add easily available true damage to more and more champions who then proceed to ignore this mechanic?

Oh man I have good news for you: IE no longer gives every crit adc true dmg on their crits and Conqueror is being reworked to have less true dmg.

They are reducing true dmg.

Critmaster Garen3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Saltarin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FbXXfc3i,comment-id=00050002,timestamp=2019-02-20T15:20:43.755+0000)

Oh man I have good news for you: IE no longer gives every crit adc true dmg on their crits and Conqueror is being reworked to have less true dmg.

They are reducing true dmg.

i mean. would be nice if they wouldnt also additionally add true damage to champions who dont currently have it.

damage wise, kayles kit is already able to carry with "just" resistance shred. why couldnt they just go with that?

Sir Saltarin2 votes

Well Kayle didn't had true dmg and they added it on her rework.

Irelia had true dmg and they removed it on her rework.

I dont think it's a major issue.

3TWarrior3 votes

they removed her true damage because she was remade AFTER conquerer

GripaAviara8 votes

I call it now, Kayle will be next master Yi/Nasus like-nightmare.

No champions build on this late game OP philosophy will be a healthy champion. While it works fine in high ELO, in low ELO it's enough a feeder lane/jungle and voila you have a game where you want to smash the keyboard because you have a balanced lane, and hop comes X from another lane and smash you to bits because of matchmaking

While I can't directly analyze Kayle as it's not in the game, her kit is busted on first look.

Kazekiba6 votes

She DOES get ranged attacks at level 6, but this is gated by stacking her passive thankfully.

And it's not like Riot's ever made a champion attack fast and have an invulnerability button that also does a lot of AoE damage who does true damage on every auto.... MasterYi As long as it's somewhere in the range of Twitch/Yi and not, say, 40% of all of Kayle's damage turns into True Damage. I still think she can get by without it, since it's not like anyone ever argued Tristana/Twitch needed True damage (more, in Twitch's case. His DoT is somewhat negligible) and yet they're top of the line Hypercarries. Not sure how strong Trist is right now, but when she IS strong she's a nightmare. She does have a good chunk of Magic damage, though, so you can't just build armor and completely negate her especially when she has Shiv + Stormrazor.

five oh tree 4 votes

Actually I believe she just gets cones on her attacks at full stack level 6. They still have to be against someone within 150 or whatever units if I'm not mistaken.

B0OM1 votes

Downvoted for providing correct information...hmm...

The thigh guy6 votes

TLDR. Op says tanks should remain useless because they are tanks and they should have to dodge things.

five oh tree 6 votes

OP says tanks shouldn't have the potential to solokill hypercarries late game through stat stacking*

The thigh guy3 votes

{quoted}

OP says tanks shouldn't have the potential to solokill hypercarries late game through stat stacking*

That’s the point. If I’ve devoted 4-5 of my item slots to dealing with just you, I should have a big advantage over you. I devoted 8-10k gold into dealing with 1 champion out of 4.

five oh tree 6 votes

So defense ONLY works against one person? Really?

Fine, think about it like this: you dedicated 4-5 slots against one person. They dedicated all 6 to being able to kill you. Who should win?

The thigh guy3 votes

{quoted}

So defense ONLY works against one person? Really?

Fine, think about it like this: you dedicated 4-5 slots against one person. They dedicated all 6 to being able to kill you. Who should win?

So what you are saying is damage shouldn’t have any counters? Got it. Biased opinion found.

five oh tree 4 votes

No, I'm saying it should outscale defense. You should try and stop grossly misquoting me; strawmen devalue your argument.

Yets42402 votes

But they don't. I have literally not once in the last three years seen a single ADC build two dedicated anti tank items in the same build, unless you count Lucian abusing item 3071 +item 3153.

What I see instead, is them building shit like item 3094 + item 3087 + item 3031 with no pen, no BotRK, two items designed to provide extra wave clear, utility, range, and burst to squishies, and generic damage increases 3-4 shotting just about anyone, even if they have 2-3 armor items and some additional HP purchased, despite the fact that there was literally zero investment in anti-tank or anti-defensive stats, and all of the gold was spent on anti-squishy burst.

When was the last time the ADC on your team actually bought a fucking item 3033 or item 3036? They have an average of between 1-2% purchase rates for all ADCs, despite the fact that for the first 7 years of League's existence, they were core, 2nd - 3rd item choices that used to be necessary. You used to have to get an early LW + BotRK + attack speed + lifesteal + an AD item to be an actual threat to tanks and juggernauts, and to be able to slowly grind through them with sustained damage. Not this fucking bullshit instant burst, melting through tanks like butter we've seen since S7. If you want to kill tanks who are specifically investing in anti AD, anti auto attack, anti crit, anti AS, physical damage return, etc without even having to go a single atom out of your way of purchasing burst, objective taking power, wave clear, etc, with the audacity to also never even fucking bother with defensive item purchases (which used to also require at least 1-2 slots from META ADCs for 7 fucking years) and literally running the same items every single game over and over, you should need to purchase quite a few fucking items before you completely and utterly invalidate all of theirs.

PB4UAME2 votes

But tanks should get statcheked at basically all points in the game by carries and any damage dealer ever, apparently (sustained AP damage, bruiserers, skirmishers, ADCs, and even assassins whine and bitch when they can't 100-0 a tank in one combo-- not that that's a problem currently as there is so much true damage and pen that defense is already worthless and they already can assassinate tanks without issue, and with overkill damage to boot) on top of damage already scaling far harder (quintic scaling, quartic if you don't count true damage/pen as a scaling vector, compared to linear returns to scale for all defensive stats). Yes, this is total fair, and balanced, and clearly the way it should be, and not biased as fuck bullshit.

five oh tree 1 votes

But tanks should get statcheked at basically all points in the game by carries and any damage dealer ever, apparently

They get statchecked by marksman because that's the only reliable way to kill them lategame, yes. That's such a lame buzzword.

(sustained AP damage, bruiserers, skirmishers, ADCs, and even assassins whine and bitch when they can't 100-0 a tank in one combo-- not that that's a problem currently as there is so much true damage and pen that defense is already worthless and they already can assassinate tanks without issue, and with overkill damage to boot)

Beautiful strawman. The construction of this was lazy, but it came out marvelously anyway. The players of this class- who number in the millions, by the way- have never complained they can't kill a tank in a single rotation of abilities. That's just blatantly false. Have they complained when they can't duel a tank? Certainly. Besides assassins though, they SHOULD be able to duel tanks after 20 minutes (25 for ranged hypercarries) with even gold. I'll get into why after I refute your next point.

on top of damage already scaling far harder (quintic scaling, quartic if you don't count true damage/pen as a scaling vector, compared to linear returns to scale for all defensive stats). Yes, this is total fair, and balanced, and clearly the way it should be, and not biased as fuck bullshit.

DPS has 3 scaling vectors: attack speed, attack damage, and crit. There is no 4th or 5th; you have no concept of what those are. Attack speed is multiplied by attack damage is multiplied by crit damage (assuming 100% crit chance). Penetrating armor does not multiply this by another number, though armor shred past 0 could be considered if that were still possible. Liandry's and abyssal can be considered magic damage's crit vector and CDR its attack speed vector.

Defense also has: % damage reduction, such as item 3143 and item 3047 which make the scaling much less linear against ad.

Now that I've cleared up some of those misunderstandings, let's get into the balance philosophy behind it.

There has only been one time in the game where defense was able to match damage scaling until 6 items: season 5 cinderhulk meta. Do you remember what happened? People began taking smite on juggernaut/tank top laners. People were only allowed to play tanks in the jungle and support, or else you were trolling (or playing janna). All assassins, save fizz, were troll picks. The games became extremely drawn out and teamfights were wet noodle fights. This is all because they gave a strong % health increase on an item. It led to only a full build marksman being able to kill them because of the amount of defense they could stack. Tank items were also less garbage back then in general.

We are not in those times anymore. Do you want to know why a tank can never solo a bruiser past 20 minutes? Generally speaking, champions build to deal one damage type. Tanks build to defend against two. You can have 3 armor/health items and have 8000 gold invested in protecting yourself from physical sources. This means nothing against an adc with 15000 gold dedicated to dealing physical damage. Rightfully so, too. If you built 100% full magic resist against a full ap team, you could probably duel their magic damage carries, as any tank.

Does this make sense to you?

Yets42402 votes

You're mostly wrong on the entirety of your post, but a few lines stood out:

"DPS has 3 scaling vectors: attack speed, attack damage, and crit. There is no 4th or 5th; you have no concept of what those are. Attack speed is multiplied by attack damage is multiplied by crit damage (assuming 100% crit chance). Penetrating armor does not multiply this by another number, though armor shred past 0 could be considered if that were still possible. Liandry's and abyssal can be considered magic damage's crit vector and CDR its attack speed vector."

It has 4 scaling vectors:

  1. Attack Damage
  2. Attack Speed
  3. Critical Strike Chance
  4. Critical Strike Damage

It has a 5th psuedo vector which (s)he already mentioned, in the form of %true damage conversion on Conqueror, (or old IE) Furthermore, in previous years damage was discussed much more often in terms of EHP or Effective Health Pools. In that context there is a clear fifth scaling vector, which is %penetration, which, against literally any target with positive amounts of reistances will increase the effective damage dealt by a percentage, which increases the value of each other stat or point of damage, and also has another variable to scale off of, namely your opponents resistances (as the damage increase is larger against larger amounts of resistances).

Secondly, those items you mentioned actually scale multiplicatively with eachother and with other effects. Ninja Tabi and Randuin's offer less than their stated damage reductions against a critical auto attack for example, as instead of 12% + 20% or 32% less damage taken, you instead get 29.6% damage reduction, where Tabi's passive is only functionally worth 80% of the stated value. As a result, it is quite clear to see that there are less than linear (that is, 1:1 scaling) scalings present here. . . I'm sure you can see how this is literally what PB4UAME claimed above and the opposite of your flawed notion. The only misunderstandings which have needed to be cleared up here are your own.

The last part is so worng I won't even touch it in full.

First off, re-familiarize yourself with item costs. ADCs have the cheapest core build of any class, cheaper than tanks. A 15k gold build is an ADC beyond full items with elixirs. If at that point the tank only has two armor items and ninja tabi, yeah, they should be blown up by a beyond full build carry. that's a fucking terrible comparison though. Instead, you'll see tanks with item 3047 item 3143 item 3083 item 3800 item 3076 get blown up by item 3094 item 3087 item 3031 item 3006 despite the fact that the tank's build is tailored exactly to the ADC's damage type, the ADC's is suited to pop squishies like a cherry, and the carry's build is cheaper too.

five oh tree 1 votes

I'm going to explain to you why you're wrong as simply as I can, since my other post seemed to go over your head.

3 vectors: attack speed, attack damage, and crit (it is one vector)

if you have 50% crit chance and no IE, the way you calculate this is simply as 50% effective increase in dps since you do x2 damage half the time and x1 damage the other half (theoretically).

Do you want to know why you don't split crit chance and damage into two vectors?

100% crit chance 225% crit damage (with IE) is the same as just dealing 225% damage each attack. That is one simple 2.25x boost. so 125% (the damage a crit strike will add with IE) at 50% would be 1.25*.5 = .625 which would translate to your crits increasing your dps by 62.5%. This is the vector. Otherwise, with 0% crit chance, you'd still be multiplying your dps by the crit damage vector.

Next, I'll explain why armor penetration is not a vector, since apparently I have nothing better to do than educate the idiots on gameplay on basic math.

What does 100% armor penetration (true damage) do to your damage? let's see: nothing. you mutliply it by 1. This goes for any level of armor penetration.

Do you want to know why?

Because that's part of damage mitigation step and not the damage per second calculation. Your dps is not calculated based on anyone's stats but your own.

Damage mitigation takes into account armor/mr, flat damage reduction effects (rare, but they're there), and % damage reduction effects. Armor pen cuts through one of these things; true damage cuts through all 3.

Now, consistent armor shred to values below 0 would add a % increase on damage which would be a vector, which I mentioned in my original reply. That is also impossible in league, which is why I did not count it in the list of DPS factors.

What else to educate you on.

Right, ADC full build price: Lucian average full build consists of item 3153 item 3071 item 3006 item 3094 item 3031 item 3026

3200 + 3000 + 1100 + 2600 + 3400 + 2800 = 16,100. Congratulations, genius, it was more than the estimate I gave. How about you refamiliarize yourself with item costs?

And no, it's not just unique to Lucian: item 3072 3500g item 3508 3200g item 3095 3100g item 3036 2800g item 3139 3400g item 3812 3500g

Only the crit/as items are cheap, and those are item 3087 2600g item 3046 2600g item 3094 2600g item 3085 2600g

Tanks have notoriously cheap items. Let's take a look, shall we? item 3800 2650g item 3068 2750g item 3143 2900g item 3075 2900g item 3065 2800 item 3001 3000g item 3742 2900g item 3194 2800g item 3083 2850g item 3512 2700g

I did you a favor and didn't count the tank support items that are all several hundred gold cheaper. Damn, looks like you were wrong. Again. What a surprise.

As for your tabi+randuin complaint: that is how multiplication works. That's how tenacity works too. ((damage*reduction)reduction) etc.

If you want more algebra 1 lessons, I can help, but with math much further than that you'll have to go to your parents :/

Handy Sandy 5 votes

I think Kayle is going to be one of the healthiest lategame scaling champions. When you look at other lategame champions Azir Cassiopeia Fiora Kassadin KogMaw VayneNasus Twitch Jax for some of these, early game laning is their strong point. The others require 1 item and then they're as strong as any other champion out there. They're not even that weak or not weak enough. Kayle fixes this problem, no matter how broken the items she's buying or what runes she takes, she will always be weak early game. There is no build for early game power that you can build on Kayle.

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