Can we revert turrets to where penetration doesn't apply to them?

Reaper Review··39 votes·1,368 views

In patch 6.9, turret defenses were modified so that they now have Armor and MR values, but in exchange are now subject to penetration.

BASE HEALTH: 4000 ⇒ 3300 BASE ARMOR: 0 ⇒ 40 BASE MAGIC RESISTANCE: 0 ⇒ 40 NEW - TURRET PENETRATION: Turrets are now subject to armor and magic penetration effects.

This is probably a contributing factor to the current spreading popularity of the flat Armor Pen items, and turrets are already weak enough as it is.

Also, the turrets after the outer ones gain bonus Armor/MR after a certain duration passes, rather than starting when the turret before them falls. If you push a turret down quick enough (the inner turrets start gaining bonus defenses at 16 minutes, and the inhibitor turrets at 31 minutes), you can start hitting the next one before it begins to fortify itself. If you have Ghostblade when you do this, you're literally ignoring HALF the turret's armor. (Even aside from that, they only gain 2 bonus Armor/MR per minute, up to a cap of 30.)

Do the flat ArPen items really need THIS advantage on top of everything else they can do?

45 Comments

Akali is SO HOT7 votes

how in god's name can you people still be asking for turret buffs. Do you just want them to 1 shot everyone while being invincible?

Blackstone0117 votes

I'd be happy with them simply not being paper mache shooting tickling feathers at you.

Akali is SO HOT2 votes

Maybe you should just get better at the game instead of relying on your turrets to do everything for you. If turrets were as strong as all of you people wanted them to be nobody would ever be able to take them and games would go on for 50+ minutes every time.

franticFurball7 votes

Maybe you should just get better at the game instead of relying on your turrets to do everything for you.

Awww, that's so cute, no argument, but instead trying the "l2p" joke.

Not working dude. Better players than all of us here agree that turrets are a joke. You gonna say "l2p" to LCS players as well? :D

TWITCHTV ERONATE5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FUUvWMeh,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2016-05-30T07:26:05.809+0000)

Maybe you should just get better at the game instead of relying on your turrets to do everything for you. If turrets were as strong as all of you people wanted them to be nobody would ever be able to take them and games would go on for 50+ minutes every time.

While I agree with you, no one likes when they get aced and the enemy team gets 3 towers and baron off it. It's basically a loss when that happens, everyone just wants the turrets to be as strong as last season Even an anivia can take down towers fast now and I'm not even joking

Nameless Voice4 votes

I also don't like it when I go back to shop at 6-7 minutes and the enemy laner destroys my tower from full health before I can get back.

TWITCHTV ERONATE1 votes

honestly as nerfed as teleport is i think it should become viable now

Vistha Kai1 votes

Yeah, sometimes I end up in lane for 10 minutes longer than I want, because there is no good opportunity to recall and not lose the tower.

franticFurball1 votes

You mean as opposed to them being basically non-existent?

Hell yeah.

Ahristocats1 votes

No, i want turrets to not be destroyed in 2.124511 seconds

DarkRitual2 votes

It's only fair for something with resistances to be subject to resistances penetration. They would have to lower HP to balance it out, which only brings things back the other way. I think it's fine as-is, with perhaps just some fine tuning of numbers needed.

Shonjl2 votes

{quoted}

It's only fair for something with resistances to be subject to resistances penetration. They would have to lower HP to balance it out, which only brings things back the other way. I think it's fine as-is, with perhaps just some fine tuning of numbers needed.

Not really, since turrets are meant to be obstacles early and even mid game, not breaking within minutes. Hell I lost count of in the past first tower falling at between 13-20 minutes, now ive seen pre 10 minute tower shatters.

DarkRitual1 votes

If the enemy ADC has enough Armor Pen by 10 minutes to smash a turret without their jungler/mid helping, you should probably ask your bot lane to stop feeding.

Shonjl1 votes

{quoted}

If the enemy ADC has enough Armor Pen by 10 minutes to smash a turret without their jungler/mid helping, you should probably ask your bot lane to stop feeding.

Not really, Tristana even with nothing more than a item 1055 with just her E>Q can take about a fourth or third of the tower, and that is disregarding the support landing a few hits too. Jynx is fairly similar too, once her autos get fast, she can take massive chunks of a tower even without items.

DarkRitual1 votes

Tristana is MEANT to destroy turrets quickly, thats literally one of the reasons you play her. That's like saying turrets are weak because Ziggs can nuke them.

BloodyTompon2 votes

The idea behind adding in armour was to reduce the time for first tower trades to occur. Nobody has enough armour pen in the beginning of the game so they have more HP and last longer.

franticFurball2 votes

and last longer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztVMib1T4T4

That's really all there is to say to that.

Crowe Stalker2 votes

If they wanted to make turrets more durable, just give them more health. I liked the removal of armor/mr from the turrets and minions in exchange for added health values (it was a change to make Last Hitting no longer require calculation and I like that change, I just wish they did on Monsters, makes no god damn sense why they have armor/mr values.) making the armor and mr benefit from flat penetration is an even stupider idea though. The only people that build Flat Penetration are Assassins, and guess who tends to be pushing the tower due to an absent/dead laner anyway?

The MechE2 votes

After playing Heroes of The Storm for so long, I've realized how crappy the item system is in league. You don't get to build the fun items like ghostblade and stuff in ranked unless you play a specific champ. It's a shame really

69469238DEL11 votes

Wait, are you telling me that my E on Master Yi can deal exta damage to turrets? WOOOO

Reaper Review4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hunted Horror,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FUUvWMeh,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-05-29T21:49:13.959+0000)

Wait, are you telling me that my E on Master Yi can deal exta damage to turrets? WOOOO

The extra damage from Wuju Style's active doesn't work on turrets anyway.

Only Play Darius2 votes

Activating E on turrets is actually a terrible idea because not only does it not apply the true damage, but you will lose the AD bonus after a few seconds and deal even less damage to the turret than if you hadn't pressed any buttons at all

ChaosThief1 votes

Well... I guess having 19 flat armor pen on runes help...

So do I just stack all the flat armor pen items for maximum turret hunting?

Spoofghoul1 votes

yea i guess this plus youmous will make you do true damage to turrets then,

SnowFall1 votes

item 3142 now truly the turret destroyer item

Only Play Darius1 votes

How about they buff turrets and allow BC to work on them

Verdade1 votes

Also greedy supports use hp seals instead of armor, making flat pen even better

Mandang04 votes

HP is stronger early on when your health is low (which is what the armor is scaling).

Verdade1 votes

So i did the maths If you aren't building any armor or HP, flat HP runes are ~50 EHP better than flat armor runes, regardless of level. However, if you add flat armor penetration, armor becomes MUCH better option very quickly

Building HP increases armor value and vice versa ofc.

Mandang01 votes

Heaven forbid AP champs ever be decent at taking towers...

Reaper Review2 votes

{quoted}

Heaven forbid AP champs ever be decent at taking towers...

When attacking a turret, it takes damage equal to your base AD plus the greater value between either 100% of your Bonus AD or 50% of your AP. If the AP is applied, the damage is also converted to magic damage.

AP just inherently takes longer to scale to an appreciable value for this purpose.

That said, there are AP champions who are good at taking towers. Basically anyone that uses Lich Bane well, due to basically dealing 100% AP damage to turrets whenever the Spellblade is applied. There's also Azir and Ziggs, who specifically have tower-destroying functions in their kits.

For the most part, though, AP champions aren't designed with the intention of them taking turrets easily.

Crowe Stalker2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Reaper Review,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FUUvWMeh,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2016-05-30T17:42:12.533+0000)

There's also Azir and Ziggs, who specifically have tower-destroying functions in their kits.

Azir's push was too strong, Azir's turret-taking power is being removed so only Ziggs does that now.

Reaper Review1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jhin n Tonix,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FUUvWMeh,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2016-05-30T17:48:44.075+0000)

Azir's push was too strong, Azir's turret-taking power is being removed so only Ziggs does that now.

Provided that PBE change goes through, yes. For now, though, he still does.

RocketRelm1 votes

I'm kind of curious what the statistic on changes are that get onto the PBE going to live versus getting pulled. I don't know what it is but I'd pin it about 95%/5%.

LankPants1 votes

He'll still be quick at shoving towers, AP+AS is a great tower pushing combo.

Mandang01 votes

I think what you're assuming to be intent is quite subjective and quite out of place for a discussion of what turrets should or shouldn't have. If ADC tower clearing speed is a problem, then you fix that, but you try to limit collateral damage.

Also, on the topic of intent, I was under the impression that the change was made to enable other classes to deal damage to towers. If Riot wanted ADCs to excel at this, they could've buffed the hell out of towers and let crits work on them, after all.

Reaper Review1 votes

{quoted}

I think what you're assuming to be intent is quite subjective and quite out of place for a discussion of what turrets should or shouldn't have. If ADC tower clearing speed is a problem, then you fix that, but you try to limit collateral damage.

Also, on the topic of intent, I was under the impression that the change was made to enable other classes to deal damage to towers. If Riot wanted ADCs to excel at this, they could've buffed the hell out of towers and let crits work on them, after all.

ADCs already excel at taking turrets because they generally build the two stats that do so most efficiently. Flat AD and Attack Speed.

Giving turrets resistances benefits armor pen FAR more than it does magic pen, because the armor pen items also grant good amounts of AD and are generally viable as first items. (It also doesn't hurt that Ghostblade ALSO actively grants attack speed, meaning it alone grants all three stats used for taking turrets with physical damage.)

Sorcs don't grant any AP, Haunting Guise is an expensive component item and only gives a bit of AP, and Liandry's/Void Staff aren't rush items in most cases (and you certainly wouldn't rush them for the sole intent of damaging turrets). Plus, there are only two items that grant AP and Attack Speed, and both are niche items that most champions won't build.

Basically, the turret resists do give AP champions some leverage later in the game with their magic pen, but at the cost of flat armor pen impacting them too much earlier on.

Nameless Voice1 votes

With the current value of Attack Damage and Ability Power, comparing from both the ~1300 items, Ability Power costs 64% of the price of AD, while AP champions also tend not to have attack much attack speed.

Though, frankly, I'd if AP were stronger against towers then Azir would be even more ridiculous than he already is.

Yosuke Apperu1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Reaper Review,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FUUvWMeh,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2016-05-30T17:42:12.533+0000)

When attacking a turret, it takes damage equal to your base AD plus the greater value between either 100% of your Bonus AD or 50% of your AP. If the AP is applied, the damage is also converted to magic damage.

AP just inherently takes longer to scale to an appreciable value for this purpose.

That said, there are AP champions who are good at taking towers. Basically anyone that uses Lich Bane well, due to basically dealing 100% AP damage to turrets whenever the Spellblade is applied. There's also Azir and Ziggs, who specifically have tower-destroying functions in their kits.

For the most part, though, AP champions aren't designed with the intention of them taking turrets easily.

Azir is losing his though next patch x.x

DREADN0UGHT1 votes

Explains the shity Korean Lucian build.

xevi1 votes

{quoted}

Explains the shity Korean Lucian build.

No, the main reason for the item 3142 item 3071 core versus item 3508 item 3094 is for the boost in early game power. The new Korean core gives more AD and ArPen + MS and AtS with Ghostbade Active which makes Lucian more of an AD caster than a traditional ADC as ER and RFC offer less AD. By the time, Lucian gets IE (on both) the old build is a bit stronger with its crit and 40% CDR.

RocketRelm1 votes

Didn't boards whine and complain and protest just a few patches ago about "PLZ GIBE TOWERS RESISTS". I do agree with the whole concepts of towers having incredibly high HP but no resists, but man do boards feel inconsistent.

Jet Sett1 votes

There's no inconsistency here, people wanted turrets to have resists, but no one wanted them to be affected by armor pen. Any AD champ that builds armor pen can take towers easier than before since tower health was lowered to compensate the resistances.

RogueWill1 votes

Funny thing. A few patches ago Sejuani W Flail of the Northern Winds was applying all the damage over time damage due to this interaction with Armor and Magic Pen

A Basic Island1 votes

am i missing something

turrets have always had 200 armor/mr when minions are around

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