Counter Play and Annie Stun

Bobikus Harrikus·2/7/2015, 8:12:38 PM·31 votes·5,836 views

Recently while playing mid I have noticed how dominant Annie can be mid once gets to about level 3, as this is the time she can usually make sure her stun is almost already prepped. However, it seems that at this point Annie starts to become somewhat difficult to play against for many mid lane picks, and this seems to be due to the fact that Annie is only of the only mid-laners in the game that has a targeted stun before level 6. If we looked at the champs who have a stun that is not a skill shot or situational, or both(Sorry Brand) then we find that only Annie Malzahar Lissandraand TwistedFate actually can land a guaranteed stun in the mid lane. And only Annie and TF can do this before they get their ult. This means that if they want to stun you, they can and their is no amount of skill that can stop this from becoming a reality. This is where I get annoyed because for a game where counter-play is valued, It seems very difficult to understand why this is allowed because noting can be done to stop it.

Before I go any further, I want to stress that I don't this stuns that are targeted are inherently bad. For example, even though TF can stun you by means of Yellow card, at least he can't one shot you. Of course this is for early game that I'm talking about, but Annie when played mid has the ability to stun her lane opponent and can deal significant amounts of damage while the champion stunned cannot do anything, and it is this type of targeted stun that when one a burst champ makes counter-play almost impossible.

Let's look back at Leblanc when she still had her silence. She was very difficult to play against because it was easy to proc and she could easily burst down her opponent. What happened, It was removed because there was no counter-play because you can't do anything once silenced except move and auto. What is interesting though is at least you could move and auto. You could start running away or attempt to dodge her other abilities, but for Annie it is not possible, you are stunned, and you cannot move, or use spells. So I would go so far to argue that the amount of counter-play against Leblanc was possibly even more than that of a mid lane Annie.

At least for the other champs that have targeted stuns they can't burst down their opponent, or if they can, they only get them level 6 when you would expect them to get a power spike, and this is what I want people to consider. Should a champion have the ability to burst down a champ when that champ is unable to do anything, because that is exactly what it seems Riot does not what is their game, yet here it is. Overall I think that having the ability to stun a champ without fail is useful on champs who are more supportive, but when support Annie becomes Assassin Carry uncounterable Annie, I find it difficult to want to defend it.

One last comment is I don't want to say that it is impossible to stop an Annie, but that requires specific champs and It is very difficult to predict that the opposing mid laner will choose Annie and with Annie also being a played support, It can be hard to choose a champ that can counter her. So I leave with a question.

47 Comments

KidSpectre2/7/2015, 8:18:19 PM20 votes

This is an incredibly well written post that explains your point clearly and with sufficient detail. In addition, you do so without raging or using extreme hyperbole. While I may not agree with you on all points, I will upvote for such a well-made post.

Trundle Bundle2/7/2015, 10:35:04 PM18 votes

The Leblanc comparison actually highlights exactly why Annie is fine with a targeted stun; she has no mobility. Comparing the two champs only by their CC definitely makes Annie seem stronger, but completely undermines how influential mobility is, particularly when the extent is as ridiculous as Leblanc's. It severely benefits Leblanc in effective threat range, safety, and mid battle evasion. There's absolutely no reason to neglect that topic in their comparison, as it entirely changes how the two champs play.

Annie also lacks the normal mage sphere of influence (autos not included) and managing her passive gives her plenty of vulnerable windows if she actually wants to harass or farm with her spells. The latter case keeps her from falling into the same trap as old Sion.

terkmc2/7/2015, 9:14:21 PM16 votes

Isnt' Annie stun also situational? She needs to prime it, meaning if she got caught without stack, she cants stun, and the enemy can see if she got her stun ready primed (swirly swirl), or almost prime (click on her and check). Another point is her range. Its pretty short so she have to get up near your face to use it, so its kinda telegraphed and counter-able (stay the hell away or throw cc at her when she tries to walk up). Thats my two cents onto why Annie stun still have counterplay

Aboylova922/8/2015, 12:14:13 AM11 votes

Thing is she's a low mobility, low ranged mage. When facing champs like LB, or even to make is another low mobility champ like Xerath, they both either have a longer range or an escape. Annie has neither, and essentially has to rely on having flash up.

Also, while Annie could just keep her stun up, she's going to be missing a decent portion of CS, or make it significantly harder to farm. In all honesty, if she's problem right now, and I'm not really sure I think she is, it may stem more from the lack of a healthy amount of junglers that can punish her for being overbearing. For example last season I had somewhere around a 60% winrate with Malzahar, but this season it's jumped to about 70% with around 20 games played. I got placed in the same place I ended last season, S2 as well. I think it's a bit odd that she popped up in popularity after the new season came around.

Condottiero2/8/2015, 12:00:48 AM8 votes

If Annie holds her stun, she won't be able to use damaging abilities. Annie can't just "dash out" if she gets ganked. Her stun is her only form of CC. Not every mage needs to be a skillshot oriented sustained damage dealer.

Yes, Annie should be able to stun and burst.

SleepyLionCub2/8/2015, 12:06:57 AM8 votes

Id agree if annies stun were any different. But the fact that you can: A. See when she has it up B. She has to charge it up over time, and cant just cast it like a normal ability C. She has low range, and no mobility.

Zazusha2/7/2015, 10:01:01 PM8 votes

Annie's stun is not only a reliable form of CC for a champ pre-ult, its also her only escape mechanism.

76Summers2/7/2015, 11:59:45 PM7 votes

She has no mobility, easy to poke in lane and some very predictable play patterns i'd say...its ok

xl Kirito lx2/7/2015, 11:09:54 PM5 votes

Annie and Twisted Fate both have very telegraphed stuns. They are also 100% reliant on their stuns to avoid getting ganked, they have no mobility outside of walking. Malzahar's supression cc's himself also. Works in lane, but outside of 1v1 engagements his ult can become a liability quickly. Lissandra. I have nothing on her. It's a single target stun that deals AOE damage, that can also double as a zhonyas.

Ultimately, targeted stuns are annoying, but they're necessary. Kalista is a prime example of why. Other champions have incredible mobility such as Zed or Lee Sin. Targeted stuns are a necessary evil.

Gigglebytes2/7/2015, 10:22:36 PM4 votes

I want to point out that an Annie constantly charging her stun eats up a LOT of mana early game and doesn't do all that much damage at level 3. Bring a few more potions and you got an Annie that just can't keep up. Also there is that fact that the stun is pretty much ALL she has. If she can't get the time to pull of her combo then she doesn't have very much.

Baron Von Bangin2/8/2015, 2:05:24 AM3 votes

With the plethora of dashing champions that all flying all over the map nowadays targeted stuns are needed to keep them in check now more than ever.

RogueWill2/7/2015, 10:20:53 PM3 votes

You are most likely letting Annie walk away after the damage (early game)

Although I agree with you that the stun is rather oppresive I gotta mention that it was nerfed on low levels. So if she lands a stun on you it will most likely follow up a W and they she will retreat. At that point Annie won't have any form of damage for the next 5-6 sec. Before she goes back to the safe of the minion you should retaliate her damage.

Annie stun is situational. She can only clear waves fast with the help of her Q which will mess her stun. If you shove the lane and push her under turret she will have a harder time farming and will have to chose between getting CS or having her stun up all the time.

Annie mana costs early also are a bit on the hard side. She can only do 2 full rotations before ruining put of mana. She has to replenish her mana by killing minions. if you let her mark the pace she will dominate you.

Poke mages also does extremely good against her since she has no gapclose and literally have to walk towards you.

AbstracT Theory2/8/2015, 8:46:34 AM3 votes

What i think should be done is this, Instead of annie using 3 spells to prep a stun(she can w 3 times right now) why dont they make it an on-hit stacking effect- annie has to use an ability on champions in order to get a stack of her passive. Just an idea

AuctionedDonkey9/3/2015, 2:39:06 AM3 votes

Annie is not ok. Annie is not balanced. Annie can instakill you as soon as she hits 6. She will stun you and make you sit and watch her instakill you. She needs to have room for counterplay. Whether it's adding a couple stacks until she hits a stun, or not being able to hold on to her stun forever, or adding much needed cooldown to Tibbers, or having an obvious charge up to use Tibbers so she has to play strategically something needs to be done to her. She is in no way fair. I consider myself to be a pretty strong mid player and I just got anally raped by Annie. I tried to just avoid her, but when she flashes and instantly stuns you have no time to react. I couldn't find any way to counterplay her. I paid a visit to the vast wisdom tree that is Youtube and searched a video on how to counterplay her and guess what..... there wasn't one..... not a single one. That says a lot.

Malix Farwin2/7/2015, 11:39:39 PM3 votes

I do respect your opinion and the fact that you did put very much detail into it however i will have to disagree, for starters, annie and leblanc have two completely different kits and the relationship between leblanc silence and annie's stun work completely different. annie's stun has a build up system that is not only visible but is on an immobile champion, leblanc has stons of mobility and doesnt even need the silence it was just overkill. Annie without stun would not be able to do anything because her kit is centered around it and there is counterplay involved with it.

If her stun is up you keep your distance till she eventually uses it to CS then go in on her. it actually takes her quite a while to get enough AP to actually burn ppl down so she focuses on farm early which you can take the chance to poke her and deny. Finally if you build some sort of tanky item first then you can generally do well against her in lane(ive even done well against her as yasuo without buying any mr because i knew to avoid her while her stun was up).

Basically if she holds stun too long she will lose out on CS.

Auryiel2/8/2015, 2:26:11 AM2 votes

Annie is a complete liability in mid when her flash is down, so yes.

BlueBuffandChill2/7/2015, 9:04:39 PM2 votes

90% of champs in LoL have 0 counterplay its ok

Koldheartedjsp9/3/2015, 2:43:39 AM1 votes

I've said this before and I'll say it again

Imo the biggest problem with annie is all the free and ANIMATIONLESS charges she gets off of her E

It's just way to easy to charge up a stun when you can pop E in your rotation for a quick charge

oh 2 charges? Na E>Q>Tibbers

funkdubious212/28/2019, 5:49:22 AM1 votes

I think right click stuns are cancer for the game. I'm fine with skillshot stuns, like Lux Q and similar, because they can be predicted and dodged.

Annie's stun (and TF gold card stun) on the other hand, is literally a right click stun. Ryze included. Bullshit stuns. That require zero skill to land. Its a crap game design with little to no counterplay (beyond, "just dont be there"... thats crap game design, saying i should never be within range of a champ that has flash.

Miku Lv992/7/2015, 11:36:51 PM1 votes

Her targetted stun does not seem to be the root of her evil to me. It's mostly a tool to get away from ganks and other situations alive. When she wants to kill, it's not the targettef stun she even uses. It's a flash tibbers stun than is just an instant stun that is so deadly. Little to no chance to flash away or zhonyas or spell shield or anything. At least her targetted stun has ways that it can be gotten around sometimes.

Anonagon2/8/2015, 2:17:47 AM1 votes

I actually don't have a problem with Annie... until she is being played as a support. Being played as a support takes away all of the weaknesses Annie has. In mid, holding her stun denies her the ability to waveclear. In bot, she doesn't need to waveclear. Annie has short range relative to mid laners, but in bot she has comparable ranges to many meta ADCs (Graves, Sivir, Minigun Jinx, Vayne), and has a second target to pick on if the ADC is too safe. On top of that, her duo partner will often either have CC (mostly slows) to set up Annie's short-range stuns (Ashe, Varus, MF, Jinx) or they have burst to complement Annie's already high damage (Graves, Lucian, Corki, Quinn).

I think that Annie's problem lies not with the reliability of her stun, but its length and the speed of her complementary burst.

OblongOtter2/8/2015, 3:51:17 AM1 votes

Maybe just make her passive deal extra damage on whatever skill procs it? OOH OOH! Or, it could have different effects based on which skill procs it. If you proc it with R, it stuns like always (unless that's too easy,) if it's E, increase the defenses, if W, increase the damage, etc.

5G8Nri0B542/8/2015, 5:10:02 AM1 votes

My one and only issue with Annie...

R: INSTANT, zero animation like Corki's old Phosphorus Bomb was.

That and...she is easily one of the most uncreative and mundane mage as far as kit goes.

FistOfSharkiesha2/8/2015, 5:51:38 AM1 votes

Problem with Annie is her overall balanced kit that is derived from unbalanced abilities. Your Q is a targeted nuke, stun, and farm. Your W is super short range which makes her kit clunky if you plan on killing anyone you have to get right next to them. Her E could not be less relevant. You use this to charge your stun and maybe if you can use it before being 100-0 to soak some damage but this does not happen in mid lane. Your R is crazy but it's an ult so that's expected.

tl;dr Annie is not overpowered she just has 2 overpowered abilities, 1 useless ability, and 1 ability with melee range.

Salidfingers2/8/2015, 6:59:50 AM1 votes

Yes i agree, Talon should have his silence returned

JedenVojak2/8/2015, 7:13:25 AM1 votes

She is one of the few mages that counter assassins. Also, her range is super short for an assassin - like super super short. She's just fine as she is.

If anything, we need more on-click disable champions.

Spacesuit Spiff2/8/2015, 8:25:20 AM1 votes

The massive counterplay to Annie is to abuse her short range. Want to Q an Azir? Ok lose half your health walking into Q range, and lose the other half on your way out, but jk you didn't even get the Q off because he just walked away while his soldiers ate you. This is why I never see her mid; she's a strong mage for beginners, but against opponents that punish her and don't let her get in range, she can't do anything.

Ash Lockheart2/8/2015, 8:43:30 AM1 votes

If you mess with her stun in any way you end up changing Annie. I play Annie a lot, and If any thing ends up changing on her I will have to move on to another champ. They already changed the identity of many champs and most of those champs end up being not played much any more because they are no longer enjoy able to play. Think of it this way if you took away nasus Q stacking. Would you play him any more?

Raptamei2/8/2015, 9:31:15 AM1 votes

Dota is full of Annies. The counterplay is to either stay out of range, surprise them and kill them first, or farm better and survive the burst and turn the tables on them. It works fine.

The only reason Annie is now OP is because she's one of the few champions that can counter mobility creep.

Baron Perenolde2/8/2015, 9:52:21 AM1 votes

Annie has low spell range and no mobility. Yes, she does deserve her stun. I respect your opinion and the post you made, though.

Solidair32/8/2015, 3:33:48 PM1 votes

Annie pays for her effective and simplistic kit by being relative squishy and also by being completely immobile.

If he combo doesn't kill you, she is in trouble.

Jungle Lux God2/8/2015, 6:20:38 PM1 votes

Keep in mind that Annie both has low mobility and low range for a mage. This would normally be a really bad combination for a mage to have, so Annie needs some other strengths to make her worth picking over other mages.

A targeted stun and tons of damage allows Annie to be viable even with her short range and lack of mobility, but the thing to note with her stun is that she can't keep it up permanently. There is still a small window where you can fight her and she doesn't have her stun up, not to mention that she can be poked from outside her range by a large number of champs, especially when you take her mid lane presence into account. Also, Annie has mana problems if she tries to harass with her abilities, as opposed to Q farming, as does every mage that doesn't have strong mana sustain. Of course, I could be speaking out of my butt when I say that considering Q refunds its mana cost when you kill a unit with it and she will have Doran's Ring for mana sustain.

However, I don't find it fair that Annie eventually gets a targeted stun for 1.75 seconds at later levels. For the range and targeting of Annie's abilities, that is insane. I think it would be fine if it was 1.25 seconds at all levels, but 1.75 seconds is ridiculous.

Twisted Fate seems to be a similar problem, as he has a 2 second targetable stun, but there are several key differences, such as Twisted Fate's lack of early game burst, low auto attack range and, by association of his auto attacks to Pick a Card, his stun, and a lack of mana sustain to sustain repeated Gold Cards in lane. You cannot sustain repeated Gold Cards in lane without mixing a bit of Blue Cards to fill your mana back up a bit in between.

Likewise, Lissandra is fine with her targeted stun because she doesn't deal burst damage, has a significant cooldown on her stun, and her stun can be targeted on herself to make her untargetable, giving more uses to her ult than just to stun her opponents.

Malzahar doesn't have a stun, but his suppression is what you are referring to. And to be frank, I can't really defend the suppression outside of Malzahar being immobile.

AmazingGoat2/8/2015, 7:03:15 PM1 votes

My understanding is that traditionally Annie has not always been a safe pick mid because she has had trouble with mages that out range her and can harass her from outside of her q range. Most of those mages, however, are not played that often anymore, and, when they are, have mana issues that prevent them from harassing as freely. The weakness of chalice right now means that mages either have less mana regen than they used to, thus not being able to harass Annie, or else they build for morellos and have less mr, thus getting busted easier.

Tldr - Ranged mages which can zone Annie out in lane are weaker than they used to be owing to mana regen and itemization changes.

femmé2/8/2015, 8:51:39 PM1 votes

if annie had any form of ms boost then yes it should be nerfed but she's incredibly squishy and has no mobility so if you're close to her it's gonna be a ton of dmg. You counter annie by running away from her and if your mid champ has no mobility then...good luck

Kaipop2/9/2015, 1:01:50 PM1 votes

Oh god Annie's already going to get nerfed because of support dominance don't nerf my mid annie too.