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I don't think that anyone below Diamond

FyshinaTux·12/8/2014, 4:10:44 AM·5 votes·1,736 views

Should be able to use their own games/gameplay as a reference when discussing the balance of a champion.

I think they should be able to comment on the balance, I just don't think they should be able to use their gameplay as an example of balance.

The reason I feel this way, is that if a Bronze V player was to say that Yasuo was imbalanced (before all his nerfs), that player would be correct, but if that player said Yasuo was imbalanced because his team got stomped by Yasuo, I feel like there are some core components of understanding and gameplay that are lacking in Bronze V that could have allowed his/her team to beat the Yasuo that would invalidate the argument of his being OP.

I was in Bronze V for well over a year before getting the Gold V I am today, and I know first hand that there are simply things people in Bronze don't know of or think about in terms of balance. The most common one that I'm seeing lately is that Gnar is OP because:

he is resourceless
he has a low CD Q that applies a slow and
he has an escape

While these are somewhat valid points, some things that Bronze players may not think about (I surely didn't when I was in Bronze V) are that his Q CD is HELLA long if he doesn't catch his boomerang, his Q is EXTREMELY unlikely to hit you if he hits a minion with it first (remember the tutorial? "Stay behind your minions"). Lastly, of course, his hop is on a relatively long CD.

How many people in Bronze actually punish a Gnar if he uses his Hop? I know for a fact I wouldn't have done that when I was in Bronze.

By the same token, saying that a champion IS balanced because you stomped one pretty hard in your game has next to no meaning when you're in Bronze. Using the Gnar example again, certain game knowledge, such as positioning, is required to play Gnar well. If you're opponent doesn't have that ability, then it is only natural that they would get stomped, regardless of what champion they are on.

So, based on that, I don't think that lower level players should be barred from discussing matters of balance, I just don't think that their own gameplay is valid as an example in discussions of balance.

Thoughts?

70 Comments

DulyAppointed12/8/2014, 4:31:36 AM7 votes

I think it absolutely makes no sense. Asserting that someone has a diamond as an authority in their argument is fine, but stating that its all that matters is a logical fallacy.

Rank is no guarantee of skill, but it may contain an expectation value if you treated rank statistically
Rank is no guarantee of observational ability, for instance, someone may not be good at the game but see something hidden among their bad game play as being irrefutably broken.
Rank is no guarantee of intelligence, which is just a generalization of 2 and 1.

ofart12/8/2014, 10:34:38 AM3 votes

I don't understand the downvotes. Your points are pretty obvious but also 100% valid.

Epilogue of Life12/8/2014, 4:58:08 AM2 votes

Completely agree with you. Best example of this would be the pubstompers like Darius. It's a fact that for some champions, the win rate goes down as the elo goes up. While it is possible for players of lower rank to discover imbalances of the game, a majority of their complaints would be able to be explained by "champion counter", or more commonly, outplays. If a Zed #rekts a Kayle in lane, does it mean that Zed is super IMBA? not really...it's because jg pressure, or skill difference.

Alljoy12/8/2014, 7:26:04 AM2 votes

The salt in the downvotes is real.

BetaDude4012/8/2014, 4:31:27 AM2 votes

To be fair, you can't really exclude the lower half of the community from showing match history in any discussion. Just because they aren't in high ELO play does not mean they don't know what they're doing. Sometimes, yes, lower levels of ranked aren't going to be based on the split-second reaction timing high rankings face, and the gameplay is going to be different, but these people make up more than half of the ranked community (there was a post with statistics about ranked I saw before, can't remember it now, but the general gist was that all bronze and silver players outnumber all other rankings (excluding gold)).

Never judge a way someone thinks or plays the game based on what you personally experienced in bronze. Many of us are very interested in champion balance, and if we have to use our match history to prove a point, then I don't see why not. Many bronzes and silvers know quite a bit about the champions they play, and I don't think excluding the validity of an entire half of the community's match history, which they will use to somehow prove a point, is right.

And before anyone says it, yes, I am Bronze III. Deal with it, bronze haters. sunglasses

Sohleks12/8/2014, 11:17:02 AM1 votes

Not all diamond players have a good judgement on balance.

All levels of play are relevant to balancing this game. Game. Which most people play for fun.

Nubeel12/8/2014, 12:52:35 PM1 votes

I'm a B1 player. I don't pretend to have nearly as much knowledge as someone of a higher ELO except for Silver which is kind of a glorified Bronze with a God Complex.

I can however identify certain problems with champions even if the circumstances leading to those problems appearing were due to poor play.

While I understand your point I don't think that gameplay experiences should be reserved for Diamond+.

AtheosisX12/8/2014, 4:27:16 AM1 votes

So if you aren't Diamond you are Bronze scrub who is clueless? There is a vast spectrum of skill levels in this game. I mean the same argument could be used against Diamond in favor of Challenger and pro players. In the end this game needs to be relatively balanced for all skill levels. It's not healthy for the game if a really easy champ is super powerful while only being counterable by high elo players, because that champ is still ruining the game for the low elo players. All levels of play have to be considered when balancing unfortunately. This is why you will never see perfect balance across all levels of play. The pub stompers get nerfed because they are too strong against low elo players and that results in them being a tad bit weak in elite level play oftentimes. All champs being balanced at all levels of play is simply not possible, so they have to address the level of play where champs are overpowered first and foremost.

Droogzy12/8/2014, 2:28:56 PM1 votes

I agree to an extent, as someone mentioned already, it gets tiresome when you hear yet again about how Darius is OP when you know he's nothing more then a noobstomper.

However there needs to be feedback tied to game play for all champions, all champions perform differently based on different elos. It's important to know how well/poorly a champion does from every aspect, not just from a Diamond+ game play stance. And how does one attain that? Through game play.

I get what you're saying (Least I think), but its difficult to really offer a proper legitimate opinion on something without game play experience. Furthermore, its difficult to take a person's opinion seriously when they don't have the experience or game play.

It would be like my friends who don't play ice hockey trying to tell me what the best equipment to get is based on watching NHL, some things work in professional or higher level of play that simply don't work at lower play, in my case D3 level college hockey, I could explain, but that's not important.

Point being, I'm not going to listen to them over my own 18 years of experience because I know what I see in professional play does not translate to my own play. Which is about the same for LoL. The job for Riot and for those of us who are interested in balance are to weed through which ones are legitimate and which ones are nothing more then "OMG WTF champ is HAXOR"

Sukishoo12/8/2014, 4:37:35 AM1 votes

Diamond? Why not just say Challenger XD Pshh.

PrinceArchie12/8/2014, 5:18:06 AM1 votes

While you may have a point in feeling that lower elo players correlate broken champions with extremely polar performances which are rather inconsistent, I woulnd't say lower elo play cannot in anyway determine the balance of champions. If there is a trend for a champion to be "stomping" in lower elo there may be more to it than just a lack of knowledge of skill of the majority of the playerbase. What better way can you evaluate the power of champions if you cannot reflect on your own play, to tell people to think of their opinions as lesser greatly diminishes room for growth and understanding for the game. You may notice this post of mine and try to defend yourself, perhaps by saying you didnt mean to "x".

But I'd rather you not do that because what this basically comes down to is the mindset of the individual. Many people will read your topic, many wont, I hope the ones that do do not feel their experiences are false or are of lesser value merely because they lack a wealth of experience. Players of any elo will hold ignorant opinions of champions and bits and pieces of the actual truth when it comes to the actual balance of a said champion, it's just tha tin higher elo theres more likely a chance that reasonable counter play is developed because they've already been through those growing pains.

I read these forums a lot and not every Diamond player agrees with their fellow diamond peers and that doesnt make them any more or less valid. If there's counter play or a reasonable argument to be made then allow everyone to present their case, don't encourage exclusion of opinion and unnecessary elitism because balance will never be a lightly debated issue. Thus every opinion matters.

Stars Shaper12/8/2014, 8:43:00 AM1 votes

I don't think that just because some1 is tagged Diamond should have the right to judge other ppl that probably just don't bother to lose their lives around a game that they can play at high levels without needing a tag to boost their ego.

Edit: Constructive criticism

While ofc Dia players have accomplished something that many players couldn't. The knowledge of certain champions/mechanics/balance opinions shouldn't be judged upon a game tag that doesn't offer a view of single player skills but rather how the whole team acted (and bad players here have a far bigger impact on the result rather then good players).

Now, what should a person be judged for is their feedback and knowledge of what they are talking about. I can know inside-out a champion and compare it to others I know/have played against better than Dia 1 players that probably never met said champions.

Also there is that different ppl can have different approach to the same champions without making one worse than the other. Using Leagues as an argument against a player is pure bullshize and unless you are talking about the team enviroment (Gold/Silver players don't have experience of how teams work in Dia, that's ok) you have no right to think you are better at judging X champion and anyway the vision of the other person might take in aspects of the matter you didn't consider.

CoolKnightST12/8/2014, 10:02:03 AM1 votes

A lot of downvotes, probaly a lot of bronze players on these forums.

Yasuo is perma banned on silver but for a good reason. His nerfs where pretty extreem. The problem is below plat people just don't known how to play against him. You see junglers try to flank him from behind so he can just dash away. Than they say he's ungankable while you had a easy kill with a side flank. Players throw a gank & yasuo can freely ult 3-5 people. A champion with the ability to get back in the game with one single play is just OP in that bracket of play.

Take Tryndamere as a example, the counterplay for this guy doesn't exist below plat. I don't see players complain about him.