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Let's talk about everyone's favorite Demacian to forget - Quinn.

Rework Quinn·1/29/2018, 5:24:32 PM·69 votes·7,117 views

Hey everyone! After seeing a post on the front page of /r/leagueoflegends the other day about Quinn, I decided that I would take the time to construct a post and hope to start some discussion about her on the boards. Quinn has long been one of my favorite champions, and I feel like she deserves some love. As a staff member of the Quinn Mains Discord server, I get to discuss her state quite frequently with people who play her regularly as well as people new to the champion. I also know that for each person who loved old Quinn (like myself) there's another player who prefers Quinn in her current state. However, I think regardless of whether you preferred her previously or like her now, we could all agree that she could use some love.

I'd like to re-state what I said in that thread (it was removed due to violating text post rules) and also add some other bits here and there, as well as invite others to chime in and add their thoughts.

With that said, I'll start with what drew me to Quinn in the first place.

I started playing League in late 2014, during the same patch that Azir was released. Within a few weeks, I had given Quinn a shot, and immediately fell in love with the character and her kit. She was unique and seemed off-meta - which I really like - and I was really successful with her, having a blast in every game I played her. I initially only used Tag Team (her old R) as a way to get back to lane and to get from point A to point B as quickly as possible. However, once I discovered how well it fit into her assassination pattern... it opened up an entire new realm of possibilities, and I was locking her in every game. Popping Tag Team, switching to Valor, and swooping in quickly for a clean kill was what kept me hooked. It was my favorite part, the highlight of the entire champion. That single part of her gameplay was what drew me in and kept me locking in Demacia's Wings game after game.

Fast forward to 2015, and we got the announcement that Quinn would be included in the upcoming Marksman update. I was really excited upon hearing that announcement. The updates and context we got from Riot gave me the impression that they'd really found a great idea for Quinn. They made it sound like things were coming along wonderfully.

Then we got the reveal. Everything's basically the same, except you can't play as Valor anymore. Personally, I was devastated. The part of the champion that, to me, was the core of her identity - it was just scrapped, thrown to the side. In its place we got a mobility gimmick that, in comparison, is far less impactful and costs too much mana for you to even utilize it effectively for the first half of the game. Since her update, Quinn has been on a roller coaster of balance. She's gone from being a high priority pick in pro play to being bad. She's gone from being bad to one of the best assassins in the game due to the introduction of Lethality, and then to being bad again... twice. However, I'd like to break down why I believe that is, instead of just presenting it and not really giving an explanation.

The initial goal of the marksman class update was to push different types of ADCs in the bottom lane. On paper, this was a cool idea. Caitlyn was changed to offer more zoning and control; Miss Fortune's wombo combo potential was amplified, Corki became a dependable source of magic damage, and Kog'Maw became an on-hit machine all about getting protection and wiping an entire team. Riot's idea for Quinn was to present an ADC teams could pick when they desired mobility.

However, Quinn's basic abilities allow her to function as an excellent assassin - none of these were changed. As a result of the update, Quinn became good at everything - she could be an assassin, a traditional marksman, and a skirmisher, and she was too good at all of them. As a result, she was nerfed.

It was the introduction of lethality during the assassin update that saw Quinn rise to the top once again, despite receiving no direct changes - a testament to how excellent her kit makes her as an assassin. Due to this, she received another change, buffing the attack speed she received from her passive marks and nerfing the burst provided by Skystrike. This change was okay at the time, due to the strength of lethality and the newly reworked Blade of the Ruined King - however, once those items had their power reduced, Quinn once again fell to the bottom, and she's been there since.

What I really don't understand, though, is why Riot hasn't acknowledged that Quinn's update has fallen flat on its face. Quinn was moved from the "marksman" category of Riot's champion subclass list to the "unique playstyles" category. I find that inaccurate, as I believe her playstyle of having the melee form ultimate was far more unique in her previous state than it is now. Kog'Maw, who was included in the same batch of updates as Quinn, was almost completely reverted after they acknowledged that his update didn't hit the mark. More recently, they've acknowledged that LeBlanc and Rengar missed their target in the Assassin update (both of whom are also not classified as "assassin" any more; LeBlanc is a "burst mage" and Rengar is a "diver"). LeBlanc has been stated as in the pipeline for changes for nearly a year now, and Rengar will be receiving a partial revert to his rework with the release of Patch 8.3. What's so different about Quinn in this regard? We've received no word from Riot about anything related to her - do they agree she's weak? Do they want to buff her? Do they want to do extensive work on her or do an update altogether? What's their opinion on how successful the rework was?

As a fan of the character since my first days of playing League, I'm very saddened to see Quinn in the state she currently occupies. To be clear, I'm not asking for a rework, and I'm also not asking for a revert. I'm asking for Riot to give us some sort of context on Quinn and what they think of her.

Thanks for reading! Quinn

107 Comments

Sonasaurous1/29/2018, 5:29:09 PM28 votes

RIP Valor.

Elkington1/29/2018, 6:03:19 PM15 votes

When they nerfed Quinn's burst, they should have greatly increased the MS from Heightened Senses instead of increasing her attack speed. Giving back the bonus AD ratio on her Q would also be pretty nice. Because if she can't take down her target quickly/reliably there is no point in picking her.

Also, not sure if it would be over the top, but I feel her W and/or Harrier should reveal stealthed units. This would give her some unique utility to help her become less feast or famine. Right now, there aren't enough champions that counter stealth, and Quinn could easily be made into one without any big changes to her kit.

HalcyonDweller1/29/2018, 11:20:42 PM8 votes

Holy crap, this post is both evocative and uncontroversial, well done! +1

I too hope for more context on Quinn, and I agree with you that it was really fun to play as Valor in her pre-rework form.

Ceridran1/29/2018, 7:52:22 PM8 votes

I joined shortly before Quinn's release, so she's always been dear to me. The 2016 update was a great pleasure to me as it solidified her playstyle. She's versatile due to her design, able to occupy 4 of 5 positions; quick on her feet as she is, she excels at skirmishing, pursuit, and to some extent, vision control. The reason the changes came to shock many is that Valor's presence was made inactive. Tag Team was no good and I hope it never returns, but it must be understood that the reason people remember it fondly because it gave Valor a greater active presence than he has today; the player actually controlled Valor.

I do think Quinn needs another rework for the sake of Valor, but I don't want him to operate like he did before. Quinn and Valor are a duo, not a tag team; my favorite thing about this duo is that they're scouts behind enemy lines, and with superior mobility and vision, they provide valuable information to their team. Rather than operate as a ground unit, I'd like to see Valor's potential as an air support unit emphasized with this in mind.

I want to be able to send Valor out on all sorts of air missions. Maintaining vision in a select area, divebombing, revealing stealth wards/picking off fresh wards, etc. Of course, being preoccupied means Quinn loses some of the fighting potential she would have by having Valor near and ready. Micromanaging Valor in the sky while simultaneously working on the ground as Quinn should help the player feel like he isn't a prop.

ModWulf Helhammer1/29/2018, 6:27:10 PM7 votes

I really wish we could at least get something. I still am a bit salty that we got pretty ignored after the rework (for instance: Rioters would show up on the other champion subreddits even after the rework to talk about it. We had Rep show up like once during, and he came to a couple PBE streams from Flash, but since then there’s been nothing).

I’m also a bit worried that any additional work that we maybe eventually get will take away her versatility, which I think was one of the best things about Quinn. You could build her as a crit based DPS carry or a lethality assassin, and anywhere in between.

RottedApples1/29/2018, 7:25:54 PM7 votes

someone mentioned quinn and now i'm sad and miss old quinn.

30cmOfTrueDamage1/30/2018, 1:09:52 AM6 votes

Personally, I think Riot missed completely their mark on Quinn. She needs a full VGU. Quinn's biggest issue is that it's not just about Quinn. It's Quinn and Valor. Their gameplay doesnt show any teamwork. And that is the most important feature they lack.

  1. It would be really cool if Riot could rework Quinn and Valor into a duo part champions that fight together, as a team. Fighting by switching each other in key moments in the battlefield (like in the anime sword art online where an X player distracts, for example, the 1st stage of the raid boss because that X player is stronger in that current situation or more suitable to face the boss, and when the boss is weak or changes its stage (becomes stronger or changes completely etc) then the X player switches his/her position with another member, let's say Y, who is either more suitable to deal with the new phase of the raid boss or the X player wants to wait for their cooldowns to be ready again. By doing that Quinn would hurt the enemy champion, then by switching to Valor, he could take advantage of the stuation by exploiting the enemy's weaknesses that Quinn opened or vice versa. Make their playstyle more hit and run.

  2. Make Valor's presence real. Not just a taxi. Not just some animations and old pixels. Make them work like a team. Another idea is, If Valor can't fight then Quinn should struggle (be weaker for that period of time) in the field alone or vice versa. That's just how teamwork works. If one member falls behind then it hinders the team's overall strength.

  3. Her theme as a ranger scout is non existant. She is supposed to enter in the enemy territory unnoticed so she can successfully gather intel or assassinate her targets. That's literally her job. But, of course, let's give her a revealing ability that lets the enemy know that she is here. Ranger scouts are supposed to create ambushes by hiding in the environment (jist like in her new lore) or laid traps to take the enemy by surprise - hitting fast and hard or by killing the enemies by afar safely- probably with the help of Valor's spectacular eagle(ish) eyes.

  4. According to number 3, here is another idea: Quinn is generally a soldier that scouts ally and enemy territory. Quinn and Valor after analyzing the enemy's strength by scouting and according to her information gained - probably by units travelling through the fog of war, killing enemy wards, placing wards or killing monsters or enemies etc) decides how to proceed into battle. There are 2 strategies: i)Choosing the assassin playstyle gives her more burst, roam, escape and outplay potential in her kit. ii)Choosing marksman playstyle gives her the ability to snipe enemies from afar with deadly ambushes with Valor used as a decoy, distracting enemies.

  5. Finally, roaming should be a part in her kit, too (probably as a weaker passive) but not focused as much as now. I mean, you dont call Taliyah the roaming mage, you never call Talon the roaming assassin (when all assassins must roam to be any useful at all in the game), and you also never call Bard the roaming support just because these few mentioned champions can roam better than others. So why would we call Quinn the roaming marksman. It destroys her kit, her role/identity in the game, her thematic, her gameplay, everything. Of course, there should be some roaming ability/passive but not an ultimate active just like now, not uninteresting, not completely brainless and unengaging and not oppressive as now.

These were just some few ideas. This champion has so much potential and I'm sure Riot can think even better ideas to make her gameplay fun and engaging in many more ways. A man can only dream for a rework.

Dead Anime Dad1/29/2018, 9:03:41 PM6 votes

I stopped playing quinn when they changed her ult. It was easily the best part of her kit, the ability to not play Quinn and instead a rockin' bird.

Altonius Amakiir1/29/2018, 9:25:53 PM6 votes

These are the type of posts I want to see. Thank you.

Hope you hear from Riot, I think her current kit needs some changes certainly, as number changes don't seem to be working. Hope you Quinn mains can get a bit of that old kit feeling back too.

Lárxene1/30/2018, 4:23:45 AM6 votes

Games have to end before 25 minutes if you're playing Quinn, or you're shit out of luck. That's no way to leave a champion, such a poor state.

Ifneth1/29/2018, 10:20:13 PM5 votes

Just buffing Skystrike would make her viable again. Cut the channel time by half a second, buff its damage by 50 and 10% AD across the board, and lower its mana cost by 25 at rank 1 and another 25 at rank 2. She would have the speed and burst she needs from the start.

We could also add mechanics to her ultimate to modernize her. When Quinn is hanging from Valor, have her move more slowly when turning but accelerate when flying straight. Let Valor mark targets while Quinn is flying. Increase her vision range. Let her see over walls within vision range while also letting her be seen over them. Quinn would feel amazing and unique to play.

Leah Kakuni1/30/2018, 3:39:19 AM5 votes

[sg-kiko] I want true vision on W.

Teridax681/30/2018, 10:11:35 AM5 votes

I agree with much of this, and I feel Quinn's development has been pretty unfortunate since the very beginning, as she was rushed into release far too soon and given a similarly awkward rework after that, with few major changes in-between. On one hand, I can understand what Riot was aiming for -- Quinn always had great potential as a roamer, and has always been a duelist -- but on the other I also feel her developers never truly understood what made players like her, which is why removing the ability to switch to Valor felt so painful for so many. On a pure gameplay level, I also feel her identity has always been somewhat confused as well: she has a smattering of utility and crowd control, a bit of burst, plus some DPS, but while some of these features are unique to her, she doesn't really feel like her unique contributions shine through. As mentioned in the OP, it also feels like her different forms of power trip over each other: her burst means she can't really have DPS on par with other marksmen, her DPS and crowd control means she can't be allowed to have great burst, and in combination with her mobility it's unclear as to whether she's meant to kite front liners or assassinate the back line. She needs a much clearer direction in the future if she wants to thrive, or at least better definition for the paths she can take.

While I am no Quinn main, I feel there are some opportunities for reintroducing Valor to her kit in a manner that preserves her identity as a roamer: in Heroes of the Storm, for example, there is a character (Medivh) who can turn into a bird, and thereby gain bonus movement speed, unrestricted vision and movement over terrain. This carries many similarities with Quinn's kit, as she has her own bird, her own mount ability, and even large-scale vision. In this respect, having her switch out to Valor for total freedom of movement and vision out of combat (and perhaps Valor could still land a single basic attack to apply Harrier and switch back to Quinn) could fit with both her theme and her intended gameplay as a roamer. She might need a new W as a result, but that could be fine, as her current active feels kind of boring and out of place in an otherwise very fast-paced basic ability set.

Beyond that, I personally feel there is potential in Quinn being both an assassin and a skirmishing marksman, though not at the same time, which is why I think there should be a clear separation between the two, so that one doesn't factor too hard into the other. Rengar's current set of changes on the PBE I think are proof that, even on the basis of pure AD scaling, it is possible to orient a champion towards burst or DPS separately. In Quinn's case, this could potentially be achieved by giving her damage really low bases but really high bonus AD scalings (so the opposite of what she has now), while also having her attack speed steroid increase her base AS, rather than just giving her bonus AS: the result of this is that it could provide about the same bonus to an assassin build, but would amplify her attack speed scaling much more, thereby complementing more traditional marksman builds. A bursty assassin Quinn should be focused on chaining her abilities together in quick succession to lay down as many high-damage Harrier procs as possible, whereas a DPS-oriented marksman Quinn should be relying on Harrier to supply a constant movement speed and high attack speed bonus instead.

Shrîke1/30/2018, 8:12:10 PM4 votes

When they changed "Quinn and Valor" to just "Quinn" that there was a sign of things to come unfortunately. My favourite duo have this curse around them where Riot seems to hate them. Quinn and Valor were no where near perfect before the rework, but at least they felt like a duo. Every champion from that marksmen update has been looked after, Graves got nerfed but also buffed, same with corki and kog got reverted (wow). Q&V got nothing but nerfs and got left in the gutter, which is the harsh reality of it. +1 for the post, hopefully Riot responds.

SanKakU1/30/2018, 7:10:23 AM4 votes

Yeah, I've refrained from purchasing her because they reworked her. I liked the old Valor a lot because you could control it and do attacks with it. It was exciting, daring, fun.

FlashnFuse1/30/2018, 5:48:40 AM3 votes

I suppose it's time to pitch my W changes and see how people feel about them again: https://www.reddit.com/r/QuinnMains/comments/7chxuk/rework_discussion_making_w_a_more_fitting/

TL;DR Valor W is a sightward now, but can also Q from his sightward position and Quinn can vault to him.

And my functionality changes to crit scaling on her passive to encourage her to stick to combat like they want: https://www.reddit.com/r/QuinnMains/comments/7ci2g6/rework_discussion_quinn_passive_cooldown_and_crit/

TL;DR Every crit landed reduce's harrier's otherwise static CD by a second or so.

BottleCapster1/29/2018, 11:23:44 PM3 votes

I really miss Tag Team, to be honest Quinn just never really felt the same without it. I miss the surprise turn and burn from her ultimate, or how the speed boost could be used on demand. There was a real high to changing forms in old Quinn's design, but now, she just feels a bit too flat, and that pains me to say. Valor went from being an awesome ultimate to being a glorified cab driver. Skystrike feels like pinpricks even though it was a pretty shoddy execute even prior to the update, and while Quinn might be more powerful now, and arguably in a better state, I do miss playing her. RiP Valor

SaturnSC11/30/2018, 1:58:29 AM3 votes

Quinn is a nice champion but her ult is boring unlike what it used to be. Other than that she could use some bugfix on her passive where sometime it doesn't proc on first basic attack. Other than that she is fine. I love Quinn but i don't want her to be in the spotlight because everytime she is... she get nerfed to oblivion.

rathy Aro1/30/2018, 1:37:21 AM3 votes

My personal feelings: The reason I first picked up Quinn was because of the huge movespeed steroid on her ult (this is from her release). Moving around the map feels super slow in league and every champ I played had to have movespeed buffs. After playing her I enjoyed that she was an early game dominant champ who could play away from the team and be effective (never been a huge fan of scaling for team fights). Quinn rework just made better all the things I liked about Quinn in the first place so for me it was perfect. And at this moment I actually have 0 issues with her for the first time ever. I used to hate going into melee form and dying 1v1 as old Quinn although that was my misunderstanding the power of her ult. I hated rushing lethality and being useless mid game once people built armor meaning I couldn't duel particularly well or team fight particularly well. Now I just rush bork and can both duel and teamfight reasonably well as long as I maintain my lead from early game. Maybe the build isn't ideal or gold efficient, but it just feels the best by far and actually makes me enjoy the game, because for me my enjoyment of the game correlates directly with how good Quinn feels.

My objective analysis: I think Quinn is stuck in position (and has always been) where Riot doesn't really want her to be strong, because what she does is about as cancerous as could be if she's successful. She makes top lane hell leaving little counterplay if she's played correctly and has strong assassination potential that she can bring from across the map way faster than an assassin should be able to with no cooldown. Her best case scenario is bordering on totally unacceptable. On top of this she's an unintutive champion. You wouldn't guess what lane she plays, what item she builds, or what role she plays in mid-late game just by reading her kit. I think this is what hurt her popularity so much. If she had to change, it would probably be best to incentivize her being played in mid/jungle and making her strengths more clearly defined.

Penta Penguin1/30/2018, 1:11:40 PM3 votes

The one thing that bothers me most about Quinn is the functioning of the passive mark, if the mark is on the enemy you must fully auto-attack from start to finish instead of just an arrow hitting the marked enemy. So for example if you Q and then auto before Q lands you won't proc mark. Really annoying.

Doozku1/29/2018, 10:15:29 PM2 votes

As a toplaner, Quinn is one of my least favorite champions in the game. Her constant poke and harass in lane is bad enough but her E basically stops me from engaging on her and her Q is a blind which is the least fun status effect in the game. Not being able to see or know what to do is so frustrating it instantly puts Graves and Quinn on my top 20 most hated champions even when they are weak. I also hate when it comes to late game and you are playing a squishy, she runs at you with her ult which you cant escape then she oneshots you with a combo that is almost entirely point and click and undodgeable. I know that she's pretty bad right now but she is so frustrating to play against. I feel like she needs another rework to really solidify her identity but also to add some counterplay to her kit because as of right now she is super unfun to play against at least in toplane.

no to toxic1/29/2018, 9:08:26 PM2 votes

Easy fix. Remove Quinn and release fap bait like all new champs are Evelynn Xayah Zoe RekSai Illaoi Zilean and call it a rework.

Mob Piru1/29/2018, 5:53:25 PM2 votes

quinn is good as a adc. try it out rush IE into a shiv and watch as u delete people

Ràinbow1/30/2018, 1:54:12 AM2 votes

haven't seen a quinn in a VERY long time tbh. her rework definitely screwed her over imo.

i cant move wtf1/30/2018, 10:48:55 PM2 votes

Quinn has always been one of my most played champs. The biggest QoL change I'd like to see is to move her ult to her passive and her current passive tacked onto her W. So that when you go out of combat Valor swoops down and increases your move speed BUT limits your mobility similar to Sion ult so you can't make hard turns without dismounting. This would increase her skill floor, remove the annoying late game instances of always needing to press R if it's not already active, and free her ult to be something combat-oriented (maybe something that requires her to be lifted by Valor first and she'll do some kind of divebomb/skystrike to a nearby location).

abdollah562731/30/2018, 7:32:11 PM2 votes

I'm pretty sure they'll get to Quinn before they ever get to Skarner or Morde

ChuShoe1/30/2018, 9:07:31 PM2 votes

Hey guys, I just wanted to chime in and say that I have never played Quinn ONCE and I think about her a lot. She's very interesting to me personally.

After all, where would Demacia be if she joined Noxus?

FalconPawwwwnch1/29/2018, 10:45:56 PM1 votes

Na fuck her

Quinn is a cancerous champ that has no counterplay for melees

If she loses her ability to completely shit on every melee in the game I'm all for giving her a rework