Why high damage meta is ruining Jungle, and making it far too skill oriented.

KnightLakega·1/22/2020, 7:36:27 PM·9 votes·7,331 views

Someone brought up a good point in another thread, which I honestly thought about. I believe Not only is Riot going about Jungle changes in the wrong way, but also that the higher damage meta in the game is making jungling far more skill based that can win or lose a game for your whole team far more than it should, and require far higher skill ceiling than its ever required before.

I've played jungle alot back in the day. I play far more casually now than I used too, but the one thing about Jungle, is the very nature of it, makes it very high impact, important role. It should as well. It keeps lanes on their toes, and allows for the wild card turn arounds in games, and lanes.

The Problem

The problem is the way Riot is going about it. Apparently 200 years experience isn't enough to figure this out, so I'll put my additional 4 years experience to it and let them know..

Jokes aside:

  1. The reduction of exp is shortening the window a jungler has to make a mistake to nearly 0. One mistake, and you're screwed for the rest of the game, and with you out, your team is essentially 4 people with 1 extra minion.

(Arguably ALL lanes have this problem right now, but that's really because damage in general is way the fk out of control, but I'm here to discuss jungle specifically).

This requires a significantly higher experience, and higher skill player to eliminate this. Generally this will only happen where a smurf is, otherwise any bad luck, or mistake will cause you the game in most cases, and now the enemy jungler has essentially the whole map to free farm and push you out.

  1. No catch up exp is doubling down on #1

  2. Significantly higher damage in the game than ever before. This results in you being less than half a second late to a gank, means your adc, or support just got blown up and its now a 2v3.

This is a significant problem. Why?

Because a jungler has to already be there to turn a fight around. Whereas before when it took time to make a kill, and supports were not doing insane amounts of damage, a 2v2 was a skirmish, not an assassination attempt in .3 seconds. Junglers who were already on their way, and on the same screen as the fight had a chance to actually turn it around.

Now however, whichever jungler is there wins the gank. There is no turn around, or at best canceling the gank and skirmish and letting everyone get away with you showing up.

Again this is very very significant, because tracking the enemy jungler now is pointless. If you're 1-2 seconds behind him, you may as well gank another lane. As going into a 2v3, even if the enemy adc/support is half health is suicide, and isn't worth giving yet more gold over 3 enemy players when they can blow you up in half a second.

  1. Objective Control is more important than ever before on a gimped lane. You're always behind in levels, and you're expected to do the most important role in the game, objective control, and winning bot lane.

This again requires an experienced, and skilled player, far more than ever before. Not only do you have to gank lanes while being a 1 shot potential against you (Depending on who you're playing), but if you died even once, you're now 2 or even 3 levels behind, still expected to force objectives.


Conclusion:

Riot has been going about making jungling less impactful and less important in all the wrong ways. By forcing the role to be an extremely high skill ceiling required to do great and not be a literal dead weight. They've made the role even more important than ever before, while additionally adding insanely high damage to the game, resulting in the jungler with the highest mobility, and skill a nearly auto win situation both in the jungle, and ganking potential, where even if the enemy jungle is a step ahead, still can result in him being to late to the fight, even if he's just 1-2 seconds away.


Suggestions:

  1. Lower the damage in the game across the board. Allow the jungler to actually have at least 1-2 seconds to get into a fight before its already over, this will also help other lanes as well, and the whole game in general, but again not here to argue those points.

  2. boost jungle exp if anything, so one or two deaths even on a successful gank where you got assists isn't still punishing you. (From my experience, on ganks where it succeeded but I died, generally results in me being a level behind the enemy jungler, or 2 behind lanes, due to the death timer + time to get back into the jungle as compared to the enemy jungler being able to gank and get a kill or continue power farming.) Successful ganks shouldn't be punished.

Why not catch up experience?

I never liked the idea of "catch up" experience. If you constantly do bad, get behind, and keep messing up, you shouldn't get a free card back into the game.. That being said, screwing up once and you're out is absolute B.S.

18 Comments

Warmas1/22/2020, 8:15:42 PM6 votes

Imagine nerfing junglers to fix top which is still the worst lane after. Toplane is even worse effected by high damage because bruisers are toplaners who do damage over time and mitigate damage over time, which is obviously useless in burst meta. Jungle getting nerfed is good for top in some regards but the main problem was never jungle but the overkitted ranged champions. Everyone knew mages were broken but we didn't nerf them rather made assassins and ADCs have even more damage. But I can definetly hear you and see that one of the botlanes int in almost every game not due to good ganks but them just not caring and with the new dragons junglers became bot's b**ch at this point.

Shahamut1/22/2020, 8:47:11 PM3 votes

Revert XP changes, make jungle camps tougher. This alone would slow down the jungle ganks/invades until after they have backed at least once.

Im no jungle main though, so feel free to flame me. XD

Love Anastasia1/22/2020, 10:08:04 PM2 votes

So first 2 points are basically you complaining because now the mistakes in the jungle (and in the other hand the successes) have an impact in the role. Do you think it was funny for anyone to be outjungling the enemy one but still be the same lvl?

And the other two are, first of all, too much damage while you are always 3 lvl behind as jungler and the main fact; Jungle means close to zero, your success there is decided by the Laners you got.

GigglesO1/23/2020, 4:47:15 AM2 votes

I knew this topic looked familiar! I'm glad I could draw a discussion off of the topic.

I read your article and I personally also think its a little more complicated than what you have on paper. Even if your #1-3 are exaggerations I agree with all of them. I do however think that there is so much more to discuss with the jungle/gold/exp dynamic. It would definitely be ok if you don't agree with me, maybe I'm 100% wrong in what I'm about to say.

1st I'll start off that its a systematic issue and it would actually take tuning quite a few things to significantly change jungle.

**2nd **Riot made a lot of hard decisions about how farming jungle should happen.

The reason why Riot had to make these decisions (and to introduce smite items) was partially due to the fact that laners would often end up taking alot of jungle camps to get ahead of the enemy laner. Hell, my mid gameplay back in earlier seasons was Mid wave, enemy wraiths, mid wave, allied wraiths. I would be very very far ahead of the enemy by the end of the game. It becomes so complicated to disentangle lanes and jungle, that they even made the camps harder to clear, and introduced the smite items. Jungling was at one time so easy, even a yummi wouldn't have died just right clicking camps to death.

**3rd **Kill also give too much gold/experience, and other things besides damage have been changed to make them easier to get.

Personally I think kills are currently too easy for champions to get at lower levels. Whats interesting is that riot has actually made it easier over the seasons to get early game kills, not just through higher damage, but also with how champions scale.

Example 1. Meki Pendant and Rejuvination Pendant removal. You used to be able to purchase 15hp/5 level 1 for 432 gold on all champions. Now you can purchase 150% base regen for the same cost... which is cool if you have good hp regen, and not if if don't. It wasn't just those items, there was plenty of other itemization changes and nerfs to defense over the seasons.

Example 2. I really wish I would have bookmarked the discussion Riot had on why champions nolonger get linear (per level) stats. However the summary (that I remember) is that level 2 was giving too much power to certain champions, and making them dominate too hard compared to champions that were still level 1, they wanted to make the difference between level 1 and level 2 smaller. Now it Might not seem like that is worth discussion, but if you were to look at patch 4.20 they changed the curve so that champions actually have significantly worse stats midgame. Again, this might not seem like much. But the higher the champions base stats/level scaled, the more disparity they had around levels 6-13. What is interesting, is they never applied the same type of scaling to skills. Skills still get a flat per levelup boost. Again may not seem like much, but now skills have more power midgame. Combine that with itemization changes and defense nerfs and you have a very weak midgame on champions that used to scale very well with levels.

Example 3. Just gonna throw this freebie example out there base movement speed used to be 300. It is now 325 That sure accelerated the game.

Example 4. Armor pen used to be Flat, then percentage. It is now percentage then flat. Which might not seem like much. 100 armor 25% pen 25 flat. Old Formula 56 armor left. New formula 50 armor left. 6 armor doesn't seem like alot, but you get the idea.

I'm pretty sure at this point riot would have to actually make some pretty large changes and reverts to actually "fix" jungle.

Thefrostyviking1/23/2020, 7:01:34 PM1 votes

I never liked the idea of "catch up" experience. If you constantly do bad, get behind, and keep messing up, you shouldn't get a free card back into the game.. That being said, screwing up once and you're out is absolute B.S.

This here is the problem kinda.

Toplane is exactly this, you die once in a even slightly bad or even matchup and now you are permanently zoned off farm and will end up getting towerdived once the enemy has a sufficient gold lead just from that.

Botlane? Enemy support picks blitz/Leo/nautilus and you have a janna, lanephase is entirely forfeit before you even started.

Midlane? One side killed the other and now an avalanche is starting.

Jungle? "You died? Dw buddy, here take this catchup EXP so you can get even in levels again and enough gold to secure a minimal amount of items so you can gank at least, have fun."

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Yeah this is not exactly fair so the changes were necessary given how a expert jungler just kinda dominates the game by default even if they make mistakes otherwise.

Also, a gank where you die is not a successful one! Laners who die to help their junglers get kills suffer like hell for it so fair that the jungler does as well.

As for the point on damage, yep it´s way too high, but some tanks are ridiculously overbuffed as well, lets look at Ornn.

Ornn lategame with sunfire, ninja tabi´s+iceborn gauntlet+thornmail will have 435-ish armor, even if i as a ADC spent 5800 gold on item 3071 item 3036 and am so grossly overtuned that my auto´s deal 1.000(for easy math) before resistances, i still only end up raising my damage from 200 to 300.

5800 gold spent on armor pen and it net me an effective 100 damage.....yay.....and this sucker deals 70% of someone´s max HP in magic damage with a combo of his even if they get merc threads+bit of extra MR at the same level.

Xenoid1/23/2020, 12:19:00 AM1 votes

From my personal observation, jungle camps spawn faster, than jungler can clear them out. I tested in custom game several jungle champions and best result was, when I come to Krug camp, Gromp already respawned and Scuttlecrab is still on the way. On numbers there is enough exp to keep up, but in reality junglers aren't fast enough to get it.

As for high damage, it is Riot way to address long queues. It works like this, one of the teams getting stomped and they either have to surrender or loose faster, then players queue for new match and there are faster queues. It works, but in a bad way, you cannot enjoy the game and match anymore.

22 Caliber Rifle1/23/2020, 1:34:17 AM1 votes

My problem with the overall catch up experience BS is that if you happen to get an internet outage, game crash because Riot client sucks ass or any other realistic disconnect type issue you are guaranteed to be punished for it and if you do come back into the game you are basically going to be 10 levels under permanently or you are going to be pummeled by team mates just because the client is shit. At that point to might as well not come back, get a ban or take your entire lanes minions / XP just to catch up.

Another problem I find with the XP nerfs is that as someone who used to be Plat III JG only. It is significantly harder to become relevant in a game even if you are 15/0/2 at 15 minutes because you are at such a level disadvantage and gold disadvantage you may just have to hope your team isn't an inconsistent brain dead player who has no map awareness what so ever. I've been in this situation soo many times and it gets to the point where this idea of "just improve your skills", "just get better" - Quote, RUJITRA 2020 is a joke.

Example: Sett JG game:

8/0/2 at 15 minutes

LV 9, Same level as my bot lane who fed their ass off? one level above support who doesn't even clear camps or kill minions for XP, 2 levels under mid laner and 1 level under top laner who has had an equal lane all game.

I feel with this concept in mind, it no longer comes down to the better jungler. It comes down to pure luck

XJ999999999999991/23/2020, 4:54:28 AM1 votes

all roles are equal now imo

they should just revert the 4% nerf and jungle would be solid. also nerf conq