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It's about time for assassins and burst mages to get back their burst...

Lauchmelder·1/24/2018, 6:28:31 PM·58 votes·3,584 views

Can we talk about this?

Note: I will be excluding things like utility mages and DPS mages here, they are an own category.

In Patch 6.9 Riot reworked the mage class and their items as well. Overall AP was reduced, while CDR got increased (which was an ongoing process). Some burst mages turned into DPS mages, some fell completely out of meta, only a few managed to keep their burstiness.

While that may be fun for players who tend to miss skillshots it feels just bad for players that used to hit a lot of them. Why is that? The answer is simple: Hitting a skillshot when you had a huge chunk of AP rewarded you with a good chunk of damage. This is something I (personally) want to see on burst mages once again. SPAMMING your abilities shouldn't be "rewarded" (as in having no downsides to missing), HITTING your abilities should be.

Why can't we just slap another 20AP on item 3285 while removing the 20% CDR you get from Morellonomicon? Why can't we just give item 3157 10AP (or even 20) while removing it's CDR?

Why can't we actually get more items so we can itemize between a burst-style and a DPS-style, or even itemize for a build that is between those 2? I legit don't give a damn about getting CDR. I can't be the only one that gets to the CDR-cap just by buying my core items.

Getting CDR shouldn't be something you do along the way, it's something you should think about. "Do I want more damage or do I want more CDR?"

Moving on to assassins:

In Patch 6.22 we got the assassin rework. I will not comment on that one, I blurred this patch out of my memory for a good reason.

What I actually want to focus on is 'delayed burst'. These 2 words single handedly screwed up game balance (for me). Delayed Burst? I agree that getting killed by a Rengar coming out of stealth .1 seconds after the '!' warning popped up was stupid. I agree that getting killed by a Talon because of his level 2 cheese was stupid. But you know what? They did their job. They didn't fail at it because that ADC happened to have lifesteal and just used right clicks to heal back up to a point your 'delayed burst' didn't kill him any more.

I will be brutally honest with you Riot: The only assassin you created that I would deem a success is Zed. He literally is the only assassin in this game that feels fair dieing to. If you die to Zed you fucked up (or you got outplayed), it's that simple. HE should be the assassin you should be looking at when thinking about 'delayed burst'.

What does all of that have to do with assassins needing their burst back though? While delayed burst feels fair to play against(,) the assassins (and especially their kits) we got up until now don't work like that. You can't just say that someone like Rengar needs 'delayed burst'. Rengar didn't need any of this. If his ult indicator would have scaled with his current movespeed it would've been fine. You would've gotten the time to prepare for his attack but still didn't know exactly where he was coming from (unless you had your wards up, which is unlikely to be the case as you're most likely not hugging a tower 24/7)

It's OK if assassins can oneshot you. It's FAIR if they can do it. The only thing required for that to happen is clear counterplay. "Just don't stay too close" isn't counterplay.

Assassins, in a way, should get similar kits to a burst mage in that regard. The only thing they shouldn't get is CC. The tradeoff could either be more mobility or more damage. An assassin as well as a burst mage should need to set up their kills, but if they manage to pull it off flawlessly they should be rewarded.

TL:DR:

Now why would we need their burst back though? Burst mages and assassins are the biggest enemy of an enemy squishy (mainly an ADC). One could say that there once was a holy triangle of ADCs, Burst mages/assassins and tanks/bruisers.

Have some of my paint skillz:

https://i.gyazo.com/e2e76118145d7f00a48de9aa7bb2170d.png

It's quite simple: ADCs would beat the frontline with DPS, the frontline would soak up damage from burst mages and assassins and those guys would in turn ruin the day for ADCs. Rock, Paper, Scissors.

This is no longer the case. Delayed Burst and gaining more CDR and less AP did 2 things: 1.) They made 'burst mages' more effective against the frontline and less effective against ADCs (because of lifesteal, heals) 2.) They made assassins less effective against ADCs (again lifesteal and heals, this time to heal through the 'burst') and did nothing for them against the frontline.

This is a big chunk of why ADCs are so strong. Sure, supports are there to help them as well, but there's nobody left to deal with them.

70 Comments

HalcyonDweller1/24/2018, 6:59:23 PM14 votes

Pls no. Rather than buff burst lets tone down marksmen please.

Malix Farwin1/24/2018, 7:44:09 PM6 votes

Sadly the minute you give burst mages "burst" people complain about it, so now Burst mages cannot even burst down squishies.

HaIlMonitor1/24/2018, 6:37:33 PM4 votes

Your chart is amazing, but it wont work unless assassins and mages can right click or ADC's need to actually use skills to kill people.

Jinx Hunter1/25/2018, 7:10:58 AM3 votes

Thats funny, because it sure doesn't seem like anyone wants burst mages to have burst coughZoe cough. Kinda hypocritical to ask for mages to have their burst when the entire boards almost is on a crusade to nerf a burst mage for bursting people.

[sg-ezreal]

(I think mages should get their burst back, I am merely point out the boards has a hypocritical hate boner for one burst mage who is doing what a burst mage does and what they are asking for other burst mages to be buffed to do.)

#Zoe has done nothing wrong

ChaddyFantome1/24/2018, 10:53:55 PM3 votes

Why can't we just give item 3157 10AP (or even 20) while removing it's CDR?

Zhonya's is strong enough as is. its a defensive item. it shouldn't be giving you the high end on AP.

But you know what? They did their job. They didn't fail at it because that ADC happened to have lifesteal and just used right clicks to heal back up to a point your 'delayed burst' didn't kill him any more.

Agreed.

Getting CDR shouldn't be something you do along the way, it's something you should think about. "Do I want more damage or do I want more CDR?"

Agreed.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1/25/2018, 12:20:50 AM2 votes

Getting CDR shouldn't be something you do along the way, it's something you should think about. "Do I want more damage or do I want more CDR?"

this

While delayed burst feels fair to play against(,) the assassins (and especially their kits) we got up until now don't work like that. You can't just say that someone like Rengar needs 'delayed burst'. Rengar didn't need any of this. If his ult indicator would have scaled with his current movespeed it would've been fine. You would've gotten the time to prepare for his attack but still didn't know exactly where he was coming from (unless you had your wards up, which is unlikely to be the case as you're most likely not hugging a tower 24/7)

Rengar is a bad exemple

  • to begin his burst isn't so delayed
  • his kit (current one, old and new) is a diver like, not an assassin pattern.
redniwediS1/24/2018, 6:42:42 PM2 votes

The only problem with that chart that I have is the tank side. "Bruiser" champions (Juggernauts, Skirmishers, and Divers) either get blown up by assassins when they are too strong, or are not mobile enough to fight an assassin on any terms but the assassin's. Tanks have the CC and mobility, but when they have the damage people immediately call for nerfs.

OtterlyLost1/25/2018, 1:43:45 AM1 votes

I would rather Assassins not get buffed. The game is far more enjoyable without the constant fear that I'm going to, as an ADC main, get completely taken out of the fight before it even starts because I'm not sitting straight up my team's ass. Hell, at its worst, I could be doing that and still die. I'm actually really upset that they're reverting Rengar's Q; I liked that they changed it to be a skillshot. It finally required more skill than just stealthing in, jumping on the ADC and spamming the Q for targetted burst that your only hope of surviving was if he happened to be behind. He was the poster child for unhealthy design as an Assassin because there was next to nothing you could do as an ADC except roll over and die. As it stands now, he is fine to me. His winrate is actually higher than most ADCs are right now at a solid 51% in the jungle and and its almost 52% in the top lane. He did not need a targeted, burst Q and is functioning just fine. He's not even building bruiser Rengar like was popular; its full Assassin with Duskblade, Youmuu's and Black Cleaver.

I also disagree that ADC's are as overpowered as people want to circle jerk about. Vayne is the only ADC with an outlandish winrate; everyone else is either scraping 51% or is right at it. Only 7 ADCs out of the entire roster of AD's have a 50% winrate or higher and nearly all of their runes are being nerfed as we speak. But whatever, everyone wants to continue to complain about ADC's and their state of "overpoweredness."

TLDR; I don't want to see assassins buffed. They are fine where they're at. And I don't want to see Rengar reverted in anyway as his current iteration is far more fun to play against and gives far more agency to those he considers his "prey."

xelaker1/24/2018, 11:13:37 PM1 votes

except one side of the triangle is grossly overpowered in comparison. Tanks had their day, bursty mages had their day, and now it's adcs. a never ending cycle of overbuffing the weakness of the last side.

Vistha D Reptile1/25/2018, 2:29:14 PM1 votes

It's about time for assassins and burst mages to get back their burst...

What are you saying? I loved it when I hesitated for less than half a second as Syndra with item 3165 item 3020 against KogMaw with literally only item 3153 and died in 4 basic attacks before I managed to stun him and get in range to ult.

Why can't we just slap another 20AP item 3285 on while removing the 20% CDR you get from Morellonomicon?

Excuse me, but how the fuck am I supposed to get any CDR as a mage without being a Zhonya's slave?

Starcraft243ver1/25/2018, 6:27:48 PM1 votes

Why can't we just slap another 20AP on while removing the 20% CDR you get from Morellonomicon? Why can't we just give 10AP (or even 20) while removing it's CDR?

An average mage will have 500-600ap lategame. 30% CDR is a 50% increase in dps. 30 AP is less than a 5% increase in dps.

LordGeovanni1/26/2018, 9:39:22 AM1 votes

As long as they get some high as fuck cooldowns yea. I mean real not going lower than 10 seconds base cooldowns. then they can have burst unlike zoe who can take 100-80% of your hp in 1 q and also has her q on a 6.25 second base cooldown (that im sure starts on first cast)

LordGeovanni1/26/2018, 10:24:11 AM1 votes

https://i.gyazo.com/e2e76118145d7f00a48de9aa7bb2170d.png

Your chart is also flawed as bruisers are supposed to occupy the space in between they 3 triangles with double arrows going each way in that they are supposed to beat any of those classes in an extended 1v1/ 1v2 but lose relevance in a team fight unless the tanks some how ignore them an let them jump on the back line.