A Udyr veteran speaks out about Udyr's current state

Udyr May Fire·Aug 6, 2016·36 votes·5,077 views

Hello, My name is Udyr May Fire and, I`ve been playing Udyr since season 2. At the moment I have 3 accounts, which are ranked Master and Diamond 1 on the EUW server. The name for the accounts, are the following: Udyr May Fire, Udyr May Fire v2, Udyr May Fire v3

I am here to share my thoughts about Phoenix Udyr’s current state and to start a debate with you and my fellow Udyr players.

Thoughts

I personally know a lot of people who used to play a lot of Udyr, in fact they were one trick ponies that didn’t play anything else. Most of them stopped playing him after the second nerf in Patch 6.7, and the ones who kept playing him, they had a massive drop in their win ratio on him. I’m sorry to say this about my favorite champion, which I used to play for seasons. I gave up playing him too. Simply because the success that I’ve had with this champion just started vanishing after Patch 6.7. (I played Udyr mostly on Udyr May Fire v3 after the nerfs)

Phoenix’s unique strength was his unique clearing speed in the jungle, that allowed you to compete against every other jungler. Since the clear has been so severely affected by the Phoenix nerfs, it is almost impossible to get ahead against an equally skilled jungler.
The Phoenix Stance lost it’s entire effectiveness to farm up for it’s shiny mid game. Right now the only way to reach the point where Phoenix Stance shines, is to get ahead with successfull ganks, which usually is very random.
But the safer and ordinary way to scale up by farming is completely impossible, unless it is a 50 minute game. The clear speed of almost any other jungler is way faster, that is basically what puts Udyr’s Phoenix in such a huge disadvantage.

What about Tiger Stance, is what some of you might think… Well let me share my thoughts about Tiger Stance. I’ve been playing Udyr for more than three years, with only Phoenix Stance, and I didn’t really play him with Tiger Stance. After the nerf of Udyr’s Phoenix Stance I tried playing Tiger Stance with a bunch of different builds, but in the end I could conclude that it didn’t fit my gamestyle and the gameplay is so different between Phoenix and Tiger Stance. I have given up on playing Udyr with Tiger Stance. I might try it again in the future. Don’t get me wrong, Tiger is in a good spot, there are several good Tiger players who’ve had success with it.
In my opinion though, Tiger Stance should NOT be the one and only viable choice for Udyr.

Udyr’s nerfing history:

Patch 6.4

Turtle: 60/100/140/180/220 -> 60/95/130/165/200
Phoenix Proc: 40/80/120/160/200 -> 40/75/110/145/180

Patch 6.7

HP Reg: 8,7 -> 6
Phoenix Wave: 15/25/35/45/55 -> 10/20/30/40/50
Phoenix Proc: 40/75/110/145/180 -> 25/60/95/130/165

'Recently Hecarim became kinda the new Udyr.' Both have the same interests & characteristics, like good gank potential and they both want to farm for their shiny mid/late game. Nerfs for both were justified.

In Patchnotes 6.15 Hecarim got nerfed.

Base AD: 61,37 -> 58
Rampage(Q): 60/95/130/165/200 -> 50/85/120/155/190

Hecarim lost 10 damage on his main ability at every Ramapage-level. In percentage he lost 17% damage at level 1 Rampage and 5% damage at level 5 Rampage.

In comparison to Udyr, Phoenix lost 35 damage at max level.

Phoenix Proc: 40/80/120/160/200 -> 25/60/95/130/165

In percentage Phoenix lost 38% damage at level 1 and 18% damage at level 5.

The nerfs for Hecarim made him healthier and sent him into a solid state.
However i do not feel the same about Phoenix, and even the numbers show me the same.

I don’t want that Udyr becomes the strongest jungler as well as the most banned champion again. I just want to show Riot Games that they’ve done a horrible mistake nerfing this champ in this way, they should change something about Phoenix, at least make it playable again.

Most Udyr Mains stopped playing or moved to other champions, since Phoenix is simply no longer an option to keep up against other junglers.

Suggestions

Small Phoenix Proc Buff (live) 25/60/95/130/165 -> 40/75/110/145/180 (numbers of patch 6.7) + nerf the AP scaling so a AP Burst build on Udyr should not be a thing, and also it can be prevented by doing the following;
Revert Phoenix to Season 2 state That means, no third hit proc upon activition, Phoenix Proc shall only be triggered with a basic attack. Increase Proc Damage, AP Phoenix becomes non-viable since you would need to build attackspeed.

I would appreciate your suggestions, comments and your opinions on whether you agree with me or not.

57 Comments

ArakadiaAug 6, 201615 votes

I almost feel like he needs a VGU. He's a large ball of stats and onhit effects and doesn't live up to his theme as much as he could. He can literally use every stat in the game and he's just so spread out on what items to build.

He seems to break items often and looks like a homeless man. Even a VU would be glorious but with his ultimate skin curse, he probably won't get one.

WhizzingArrow IIAug 6, 20164 votes

So true, there are so many stats he would benefit from, but there isn't quiet a good build for him anymore. He's just so.. random atm

JESUSSAYSNOAug 6, 20166 votes

{quoted}

I almost feel like he needs a VGU. He's a large ball of stats and onhit effects and doesn't live up to his theme as much as he could. He can literally use every stat in the game and he's just so spread out on what items to build.

He seems to break items often and looks like a homeless man. Even a VU would be glorious but with his ultimate skin curse, he probably won't get one.

He already got a visual update. It's called Spirit Guard Udyr. It's locked behind a 30 dollar price wall.

ArakadiaAug 7, 20161 votes

Sadly.

Udyr May FireAug 7, 20161 votes

I do not think that a VGU will happen, although it would be very appropriate. Since Udyr is a 4-model champion, they could rework four other champions in the time. It`s not worth for Riot.

ArakadiaAug 7, 20161 votes

They couldn't rework four other champions (Im assuming you mean VGU) in that time because 4 other champions require new abilities on each modle and new voices for each champion and new lore possibly. Udyr's models dont need so much work per model.

Udyr May FireAug 7, 20161 votes

Uhh yeah, i meant VGU Update.

KillerPenguinsAug 6, 20167 votes

The reason phoenix needed the nerf is because of split pushing phoenix udyr being able to go 0/0/0 and win the game by himself with no real counterplay from the enemy team other than pushing faster, as I understood it.

WhizzingArrow IIAug 6, 20163 votes

The thing about phoenix spltipushing is that you need ap to get that off. And since runic echo is not a viable thing anymore, you can't rush down a lane and push it like a beast. We're taking about making his early clear better, and take away the scaling, making him not go full ap but rather keep up with certain junglers speed etc nidalee, graves, rek zai etc etc

GULAG 4 UAug 6, 20166 votes

Udyr is toxic and needs a rework. Not just some little buffs. Just like

Kalista Aatrox Azir Rengar

3ofGot40veAug 6, 20164 votes

He isn't really toxic, just in an awkward stage.

Also you forgot yasuo in your list.

GULAG 4 UAug 6, 20161 votes

You one trick a champion man. It's normal that there's a counter that you simply can't win vs. If I one tricked kha'zix (I main him), I'd have to ban elise every single game including heimer because there is no counter for them as kha'zix unless they're wood v.

Yasuo is somewhat toxic, but not as bad as the champions listed above. Also it is possible to beat him as katarina. And he isn't as bad as most people say he is (By bad I mean cancer, aids, piece of retarded shit etc). Sure he's not fun to play against, but he's so squishy that he dies very easily.

Unless it's the tank build. But that shit is broken.

RoodToobAug 6, 20162 votes

As another kha main, i don't really agree with the Elise and heimer sentiment. Lee Sin and Pantheon are way worst in a jungle match-up in my opinion. Heimer you can smite a turret which severely lowers his DPS, moreso if you are cautious on how he uses his ult. Elise you can play around her R cooldown

Now, to the Yasuo thing : People call Yasuo aids because he kills them. Name could be one of the strongest champs, but people wouldn't really complain because she doesn't kill them, nor have immense healing like a soraka would.

And yes, that tank build is broken

PiVoRxAug 6, 20161 votes

How does aatrox is toxic? and you forgot yasuo and lb.

GULAG 4 UAug 7, 20161 votes

I already talked about yasuo. I can't mention every single champion. Infinitite sustain with a free ga, 2 steroids, free lane harass with glaring low base stats for a fighter in order to compensate? He's def toxic dude.

Ok sure but whyAug 6, 20164 votes

If PETA asks, this fur is fake.

SlashStrikerAug 6, 20164 votes

my personal problems with udyr

no auto reset when switch stances
cooldown on all abilities after switch stances
no combo system for a melee champion
when switch stances udyr cancels his auto attack and the attack timer goes on cooldown
turtle should scale with bonus health instead lifesteal
no visual update. His animation makes him look like a ridiculous clown (LOOK GUYS I AM AIRPLANE ON FIRE VRUMMMMMMM)

I believe he can becomes more fun but those are things that bother me

Very Hard EngageAug 6, 20163 votes

phoenix stance nerf which

*took away my uber clear speed and now set me on par with other junglers *

now wtf, hes got nothing broken op anymore, freelo is gone baby

WhizzingArrow IIAug 6, 20165 votes

His clear is much lower than most junglers now. I did a clear with leona ad and ezreal in the jungle. Both were 5-10 seconds faster than udyr atm. So his clear is weak. Take nidalee, her clear speed is absolut brutal compared..

Very Hard EngageAug 6, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=WhizzingArrow II,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EnyEJfec,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2016-08-06T18:30:37.640+0000)

His clear is much lower than most junglers now. I did a clear with leona ad and ezreal in the jungle. Both were 5-10 seconds faster than udyr atm. So his clear is weak. Take nidalee, her clear speed is absolut brutal compared..

you want to compare damage dealers who build aggressively warrior/runic, in relation to someone who builds predominantly cinder/razor.

lets try this again. compare him to someone like maokai, nautilus(lol in jungle i know) or rammus who have dirt for clear speeds when building cinder. or compare to yi/shyv who builds razor. yi and shyv both beat him yes. but he still beats all other tanks regardless of which way he builds. his clear speed is in the middle, nothing outlandish like it used to be. you are claiming its much worse than it really is.

go clear the jungle on a rammus, now tell me thats fair.

WhizzingArrow IIAug 6, 20165 votes

Okay hear me out. Of every jungler that builds either dmg or bruiser he has the lowest clear.. U cannot compare a pure tank vs a bruiser or a dmg jungler. As udyr u want to build some dmg, and some tanky stats. Rammus wont even touch any ad item. U ever tried building rammus with dmg? He does tons of dmg.. but that doesn't fit his style..

So for his role as a bruiser he falls threw, but ofc tank jungler like rammus, amumu etc shouldn't keep up with those. But later in teamfights they don't have to worry about dieing, or atleast they shouldn't.. For udyr that's a whoooole diffrent case..

So ofc if u build dmg u should clear faster, thats just logic. But for beening one of the dmging types, he is weak

VoraciousXAug 7, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=WhizzingArrow II,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EnyEJfec,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2016-08-06T18:40:55.974+0000)

Okay hear me out. Of every jungler that builds either dmg or bruiser he has the lowest clear.. U cannot compare a pure tank vs a bruiser or a dmg jungler. As udyr u want to build some dmg, and some tanky stats. Rammus wont even touch any ad item. U ever tried building rammus with dmg? He does tons of dmg.. but that doesn't fit his style..

So for his role as a bruiser he falls threw, but ofc tank jungler like rammus, amumu etc shouldn't keep up with those. But later in teamfights they don't have to worry about dieing, or atleast they shouldn't.. For udyr that's a whoooole diffrent case..

So ofc if u build dmg u should clear faster, thats just logic. But for beening one of the dmging types, he is weak

Well, they could just give him a small damage buff against jungle monsters ONLY in pheonix stance if the only problem with him is that he can't keep up with other fighters in the jungle. Just enough to make his clear speeds up to par. I don't think they should remove options(like using AP) since it gives him more ways to play. This would also keep him from dealing extra damage to champions with the same ability.

RoodToobAug 6, 20162 votes

Leona i can agree with. AD ezreal has a fast clear rate just by being ezreal though. His auto's mixed with q with his passive attack speed make for a very fast clear for an Adc trying to jungle.

If you want to compare to other jungles though, Phoenix Udyr probably Rivals twitch in clear speed. Thats abysmal

disregardableAug 6, 20162 votes

Riot has historically not given a fuck about alternative build routes. The second one path is deemed too strong, it's butchered and abandoned.

HyrdalAug 6, 20162 votes

The only way I manage to be relevant in a game Phoenix Udyr is when I build some tankiness and utility. It's damage are too low if you don't build a lot of AP and giving up tankiness (except with Abyssal but that's only one "nice" item). I know Riot is considering him as a Juggernaut (high damage with decent scaling to allow the champion to build health/ar/mr with some damage) but that's not how he feels right now unless with some Tiger build. But here comes the problem: AP juggernauts are not a thing, there are AP tanks (strong base damage with low scaling but provides a lot of utility), a class where Udyr doesn't fit on his actual state due to his utility being defined in some part by his movement speed.

WhizzingArrow IIAug 6, 20162 votes

Agrees, as udyr you don't wanna give up either utility or tankiness for ap. Such that only makes him a utility tank, which is not the case he should be.. After the nerfs, i felt like udyr was a whole diffrent champion, in a bad way...

Yordle HentaiOct 14, 20161 votes

There is 1 Ap Juggernaut. Mordekaiser HUEHUEHUEHUE (But he's kinda meh)

Very Hard EngageAug 6, 20162 votes

udyr main wants buffs for a currently 49% win rate champ because he no longer maintains a positive win rate on him in diamond + elo

when in reality hes just getting kited and hes not gross enough to spill over into the carry range that hes used too where he can 2v1 from his absurd early game farming lead above any other jungler.

udyrs current jungle clear speed is not abysmal like everyone is making it out to be, it is slower, but not even bottom 5 slow.

let me list all the champs who are still slower than udyr.

Amumu Rammus Maokai Nautilus Sion

and heres all the additional champions udyr still beats when udyr builds damage as a first item. Evelynn LeeSin Gragas Graves JarvanIV Zac Volibear RekSai Khazix Rengar

who udyr used to beat, but no longer does with average hybrid build. Elise LeeSin Nocturne Pantheon Warwick MonkeyKing

who udyr used to contend with. MasterYi Shyvana Olaf Nunu

udyrs current clear speed is on par with rengar/khazix, are we going to say these clear speeds are god awful and unbearable, and those two also need immediate buffs for their first pass clears?

this is strictly a build issue, you arent going sated/bork or sated rage blade like you used too. you're trying cinderhulk and hydra and you expect to deal tons of damages to camps. the task you want to accomplish is simply a champion choice issue, the nerf was justified and you want more out of a champion than what is fairly offered.

Tl;DR udyr has an average clear time, deal with it.

im sorry you dont beat damage rush junglers when you build cinderhulk?

Ben SharpioAug 7, 20161 votes

youre insane if you think sion clears are slow

Very Hard EngageAug 7, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=l Sion Bot l,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EnyEJfec,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2016-08-07T23:13:51.569+0000)

youre insane if you think sion clears are slow

they get better with ranks and levels, his main bonus is that he can stay in the jungle much longer than most, giving him the opportunity to get ahead. but he is well below average, his CD's were just hit too hard due to lane sion being OP that they just demolished his clear speed. anyone who builds damage(warrior/runic/razor) is innately ahead over him. he is faster of the cinderhulk tanks (except for voli, and udyr w/ cinder)

VvVVvVAug 6, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Udyr May Fire,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EnyEJfec,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-08-06T18:13:44.749+0000)

the success that I have had with this champion just started vanishing after Patch 6.7.

Im not sure what this would show then. I mean, im sure your skill level on him hasn't changed. So was he just too OP and you were just benefiting from it? And since he was knocked down a bit you are just winning at the rate you should have been winning at all along?

Udyr May FireAug 7, 20163 votes

Yes i agree, Udyr was OP and i benefited from it.

In the last seasons, I had a winrate of 55-65% on Udyr (around 100 Udyr games each account). After Patch 6.7, I started to play on my third account(Udyr May Fire v3), to test Udyr. That means, I am supposed to reach atleast a win rate of 55% on Udyr. As you can see, I'm at a 43% winrate after circa 50 Udyr games, not nearly at 55%.

The DeckownerAug 6, 20162 votes

Udyr is just a casualty of Rito's "nerf champion instead of op item" mentality. Shyvana Sejuani XinZhao were also casualties of such event.

CasterGilgameshAug 7, 20161 votes

i still havent forgiven XinZhao when he was first released...but i agree riot always waits till they gut the champion for them to always buy the item then nerf the item and never revert the nerfs

HolgranthAug 6, 20162 votes

Salty season 1 bitter veteran here. Udyr has two MASSIVE problems when it comes to balance, hes entirely focused on melee auto attacks and he is as flat as North Dakota. If he is good he is amazing and frustrating as hell for the opposing team, if he is bad.... he sucks. The very things that make him Udyr also prevent him from ever being balanced, a massive VGU that overhauled his stances and made turtle stance and bear stance real choices for sustained combat as opposed to secondary buttons that you press for their effects then quickly switch away from might help him significantly but he will never be easy to balance.

CasterGilgameshAug 7, 20162 votes

i just want riot to give Udyr a VGU and we golden though maybe riot could spare to just give his kit small tweaks on the level of a class update

Udyr May FireAug 7, 20161 votes

Another idea that i have not mentioned for changes. Udyrs passive could be replaced by a similar passive like Syndras. That means, he gets an extra buff on each ability, when maxed out.

For example, bear stance @lvl5 gives an extra tenacity or movementspeed stat. etc.

This passive would fit Udyr since it defines his stances and he would to make a choice on which stances he`s combining, given by the circumstances of a game.

CasterGilgameshAug 7, 20161 votes

i kinda wish turtle stance shield scaled off bonus HP and it gave armor and MR instead of life steal that way tank udyr could be great but then again thats just my thoughts from playing with him.

FantasySniperAug 7, 20162 votes

He's broken several items because every stat is exploitable on him. People that play him are unsatisfied with his potential, and it's difficult to make playing against him feel fair. He needs a rework if he's ever going to feel healthy.

OneMustFallAug 7, 20161 votes

I thought the nerfs in 6.4 were also good enough for the most part. I do think the HP regen nerf from 6.7 should stick but other than that the other changes should be reverted. I don't think they should kill the AP scaling on Udyr, I think if someone wants to go AP burst on Udyr, that's cool. Just make it so he's in more danger early on in his JG which I think the HP regen nerfs accomplished.

TeslynAug 7, 20161 votes

Come on man... you cant tell me that most those games you didnt have to 1v5 the enemy team or just split push with udyr to win. 3 accounts all sitting above D1... the champ is broke and needs to be fixed. He is just AA tank #'s... learn a rotation and you climb with him...

Maybe he will see more play when the assassins rework happens, but to be honest havent missed him.

He is hard to catch and hard to kill.. perfect split push annoyance.

invisiblecat1Aug 7, 20161 votes

Udyr is kinda a mess He has high single target with Q He has sustain and survivability with W He has one form of hard cc, and also a slight way to close gaps with E and finally has some waveclear/jungle clear with R He does so many things, but can't do one of the properly. His Q is too weak, his W shield scales with ap (The lifesteal is a little strong), his E stun is not long,and is his only gap closer/croud control with ganks, and his ult damage is just too low. He is like Karma (odd comparison, but hear me out) She can do a lot of things, but none of them as effective as other champions

Your Next KillAug 7, 20161 votes

Unrelated to the topic, but... is your name inspired by Memphis May Fire?

SwiftKitten88Aug 7, 20161 votes

um.. uydr can pretty much 1v1 anyone at even gold... and you cant escape him unless you use a dash over a wall

darkestkhanAug 7, 20161 votes

Destroyed many Udyrs with frozen mallet teemo... you just can't escape fromal teemo.

Guy Fox TeemoAug 7, 20162 votes

Being able to 1v1 and kill people isn't exactly an OP strength. I can do that with Tryndamere and Tryndamere is shit.

Gosh DarnAug 7, 20161 votes

He was only an issue because of Devourer, boots of swiftness, rageblade, and runic echoes. Now that devourer is gone, and the other items have been nerfed, they could completely revert the changes and he might go to like 52% winrate tops.