Gameplay generally has "High counterplay" and "Low counterplay" mixed up.

Malza·6/11/2018, 11:55:16 PM·35 votes·10,348 views

are not high counterplay champions. Due to their extreme mobility and ability to beat most bruisers/tanks in melee range under proper conditions (which they get to pick the fights due to having high mobility) they have some of the lowest amount of counterplay of any top laners.

have extremely high counterplay. Almost every top lane with any modicum of mobility can pick fights at the proper time to outtrade these champions, and they almost always get outscaled if they go even. This is why these champions are never picked in high elo.

73 Comments

chipndip16/12/2018, 12:54:47 AM9 votes

I feel like you know that "counter-play" is a term but you don't know what it is so you're just saying it over and over and hoping you're using it right.

Vonyalo6/12/2018, 12:19:40 AM8 votes

That's called shitty game design. If only we had items that can cover champions weaknesses so they would be viable in pro play.... But naaaah, what are we, dota? Too OP and complicated. We have OUTPLAY baby. That's why champs like garen will never reach pro scene. Shame.

AlienPrimate6/12/2018, 1:37:25 AM8 votes

Please do tell me the counterplay to Darius when I'm playing an immobile tank. The only way I have ever found to beat Darius besides picking Taric into him is to sit under tower with less than half his CS and hope my team beats him for me.

D357R0Y3R6/11/2018, 11:58:15 PM7 votes

you're here again?

damn must be rough hearing singed nerfs from riot and then coming to tell us that camille irelia have no counterplay

just because they 're busted right now doesn't mean they have no counterplay

5050BS6/12/2018, 2:24:30 AM5 votes

Akali Anivia Yasuo can lane so safe

Illaoi Veigar Zyra are free food ganks

DragonShea6/12/2018, 6:03:34 AM4 votes

{quoted}

are not high counterplay champions. Due to their extreme mobility and ability to beat most bruisers/tanks in melee range under proper conditions (which they get to pick the fights due to having high mobility) they have some of the lowest amount of counterplay of any top laners.

have extremely high counterplay. Almost every top lane with any modicum of mobility can pick fights at the proper time to outtrade these champions, and they almost always get outscaled if they go even. This is why these champions are never picked in high elo.

The problem lies in the fact that Mobility is not pusinable nor does it take a big chunk of a champs power budget. Instead champs with mobility get free power. Riot needs to make champs that have no mobility either have extra power or utility, or make them more tanky. Unless you have fallen too far behind, a champ like juggernauts should feel scared of being immobile. Also their tankiness should allow them to make more mistakes to compensate for them messing up.

LankPants6/12/2018, 3:56:39 AM4 votes

I've always said this. The only way to beat a champ like Lee Sin when they're strong is if they fuck up. It's easier to fuck up playing them, but you're still relying on the mistake of an enemy. Should they not make that mistake you're effectively unable to do anything.

Sexy Jack Rabbit6/12/2018, 10:58:44 AM4 votes

This whole post is the epitome of bias lmao

Sire Hippington6/12/2018, 7:13:06 AM3 votes

The main issue is that counterplay is heavily based on what champ you play, and you need more than just any modicum of mobillity vs darius and garen if you lane as a melee, since they don't need to close the gap, they just walk at you and either reach you or zone you from cs. Still, you're right, beeing melee in without hyper mobillity in it's self provides a lot more counterplay than most people give credit, especially once you enter teamfights. But in terms of lanening, i think 'extremly high counterplay' is quite an exegeration for them.

Also, most people seem to asume that any skill that can miss automatically has high counterplay even though for most of them, especially in close distance, missing is a result of the user fucking it up and not the target dodgeing it, cause for something like camiles E, if you don't have a dash or 500+ms, you can't dodge it as it's comming in to fast.

mack91126/12/2018, 9:51:32 AM3 votes

Irelia counterplay

dodge stun
dodge ult
precent dash resets

Camille counterplay

precent heal from outer ring
make hookshot difficult for Camille player
force out ult

Modl Ryden l6/12/2018, 4:41:44 PM2 votes

Bullshit. You can't associate counterplay into champs because of their "mobility."

Do you know how oppressive Garen and Darius can get?

"They're not OP, they're not mobile."

You can't flash away until Garen's silence is over, by then he has spun you and buffered his R. The split between building tenacity vs a single silence when a majority of his kit does physical + true damage is unforgiving.

Darius keeps you stuck in a slow, if you're not full of dashes your almost incapable of leaving his range.

Go ahead, pick Riven Yasuo Irelia into Garen and Darius and see what happens. And don't give me any of that "... BUT A GOOD X WILL ..." Are you a good RIven/Yasuo/Irelia? Then fucking prove it, nerd.

Teridax686/12/2018, 12:05:30 PM2 votes

I get the feeling the issue here isn't so much that some people get counterplay mixed up, but that the OP defines counterplay mostly around mobility. For sure, mobile champions tend to have much more control over when fights start and end, which often makes them less interactive, but on a mechanical level, both Irelia and Camille at least have ways of letting the player avoid their damage and crowd control. Darius also has the same with his Q and warm-up period for his innate. Garen, by contrast, is hard-countered by kiting, but otherwise completely lacks counterplay at melee range, which makes his counterplay altogether quite binary, and therefore not that great. Therefore, I'd say that out of these champions, Darius and Irelia arguably have the most counterplay, whereas both Camille and Garen are lacking in their own distinct ways. Just because a champion gets countered harder by one mechanic does not mean that they are altogether more interactive, since if it takes just one thing to render them useless, that's generally counterbalanced on them by having them lack interactivity anytime they're not being hard-countered (e.g. Mundo relative to Grievous Wounds).

DuskDaUmbreon6/12/2018, 3:09:02 PM2 votes

That's...not what it means at all. You're just biased, and looking at them when they're too strong.

There's literally only one thing you can do against Garen, and that's outrun him. There's nothing to dodge, there's nothing to misdirect. Camille? You can dodge her E, you can dodge her W, you can CC her to waste the second part of her Q. Irelia, you can dodge her E, her W, her R, and dodging those limits her Q.

Darius is still fairly low counterplay, because the primary thing you do against him is stay away from him.

Don't confuse "high counterplay" with "easy to outplay". High counterplay refers to the number of things you can do to outplay them. Garen is easy to outplay, but he's still low counterplay, because it's fairly easy to stay away from him, but staying away from him is the only thing you can do.

Handy Sandy 6/12/2018, 3:24:28 PM2 votes

Garen and Darius are both pretty low counterplay champions.

Garen Darius Don't get close to them, and if you do then you die because they can't really miss anything in their kit. Darius probably has more counterplay since his Q

Camille Irelia Have skillshots that you can at least dodge. I'd say Camille has the most counterplay since you can dodge her E stun and W.

There's a difference between being strong, and having no counterplay.

Bob the Toastr6/12/2018, 2:51:33 AM2 votes

Darius is extremely high counterplay? How do you dodge his W -> Q combo if you don't have a dash?