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Nerfing Jungle Experience... Again

Tobykachu·10/16/2019, 12:13:36 PM·62 votes·20,111 views

Currently, on the Preseason 2020 Gameplay: Rise of the Elements, a small portion of the rundown denotes the change in experience to make certain roles more or less powerful. For example top laners are going to be getting more experience from minions, whilst bot laners are going to be getting less. The most baffling part of all of this, in my opinion, is how they're yet again reducing the amount of experience junglers get from camps.

The Jungle role is currently in an absolutely horrible state. It is no exaggeration to say the jungler has the most influence over the map. Generally they can put all their lanes in an advantage and snowball the game that way, or alternatively, they can camp one or two lanes to the point that these lanes are able to carry on their own. This has become such a recurring theme in games that the term 'jungle difference' has become an unironic statement and more of a truth.

This is the jungle meta we're currently in and as such has greatly reduced the number of viable champions to play in the jungle if you want any chance at winning, especially in high elo. If your champion is unable to pressure the map early, then the chances are you are going to have lost the game before your champion is able to do anything meaningful. We have been in this meta for a long time now and Riot have attempted to 'fix' it twice before - both by reducing jungle experience. Both times the changes did nothing but exacerbate the problem. Scaling junglers who rely on levels, such as Master Yi, Shyvanna, Amumu etc. are getting pushed further and further out of the meta, whilst the junglers that are able to gank are being pressure to gank more and more as farming their camps simply isn't worth it, whilst making them feel less rewarding to play, as they can't keep up with the carry potential of their laners.

And with all the nerfs to vision, aimed at pro play, this makes playing against champions such as Lee Sin, Xin Zhao, Rek'Sai and Jarvan IV an absolute nightmare to play against as playing aggressively at all invites them to visit your lane.

I truly hope Riot looks at some other, more creative ways to tweak the jungle to make it feel more enjoyable to play, whilst being slightly less overbearing on the rest of the map.

44 Comments

Holgranth10/16/2019, 3:35:46 PM9 votes

I have come to the conclusion that Riot is so addicted to Esports that they would rather have an unhealthy jungle Meta that is "exciting" for spectators than a healthy Meta that is "boring".

Seriously. The reason camps are so worthless and take so long to spawn in because Riot wanted more ganking.

Then they nerf jungle for 3 seasons straight because ganking junglers are too powerful.

Instead of making it so that farming jungle, counter jungling, invading etc, etc are actually viable they just keep nerfing the role until only 4-5 super early pressure champions are left.

Zed genius10/16/2019, 1:43:36 PM8 votes

Playing jungle is already just sad because you sometimes have literally no agency over what happens in-game.

Jesi Oni10/16/2019, 12:55:18 PM7 votes

Maybe because Jungler should farm jungle and occasionally gank instead of babysitting lanes occasionally farming? 🤔

Quáx10/16/2019, 12:45:31 PM5 votes

Correct me if I'm mistaken (and frankly I might be). But I saw them say that they slightly toned down the krug camp and upped the xp on gromp so that jungle could hit 3 off of any side they started on.

boricCentaur110/16/2019, 1:13:40 PM5 votes

The best way to fix jg is buff the camps in xp but make they much harder to kill and respond slower. That gives time to gank but also hurts you if you gank but it gives you more xp. This forces the jg to think since if he fails a gank then he loses xp and gets slowed down but if he does not gank he is not doing his job.

Xintium10/16/2019, 1:33:12 PM2 votes

This video is quite useful regarding Jungle and it explains many things: Vertical Jungling.

Titanium7010/16/2019, 4:13:06 PM2 votes

I mean - what else to do? We need to reduce the impact JGLs have on the game. We need to do this in an enviroment where you don't need a single additional AD to oneshot someone in a 2v1. And where you dont need asingle point of additional health or armor to perform a towerdive.

That reads almost impossible! We're in a gamestate where stuff like Lee can just casually take 2/3 of a mids HP on his way from Red to crab without any way to punish him since what ever DMG you throw back at him costs you a ton of mana and is completely nullified once he reaches crab and smites it!

Hi im 1210/16/2019, 3:20:56 PM2 votes

If your champion is unable to pressure the map early, then the chances are you are going to have lost the game before your champion is able to do anything meaningful.

that's a funny way of saying that karthus, ekko and eve are all S tier lmao

Yboat10/17/2019, 5:37:10 AM1 votes

As is now, unless you leach/ tax / get a kill you hit 6 just barely before bot lane does on most jungles. Mid and top are about a level up. if you don't take a jg that can gank/ hold there own at level 3 you are in for a rough game. Get invaded hard and you can be out of the game before level 4.

Support Position10/17/2019, 6:04:50 AM1 votes

JarvanIV Khazix Rengar Shaco Vi Kayn

Yea... I hope jungle exp gets cut in half now... And spawns are highered and make all these META junglers have to stay in the fucking jungle for a long period of time...

item 1041 item 1039 Now we need these items to make it so you get half exp and gold from champion kills till their upgraded please....

Chainman310/17/2019, 6:12:02 AM1 votes

Gank heavy meta incoming.

Śhunpo10/17/2019, 12:23:11 PM1 votes

Junglers are already broken as is.

MAGE ITEM KEKW10/17/2019, 12:31:38 PM1 votes

But they BuFfING RENGAR WITH OCEAN BUSHES DAD

JG OP NOW NERf Jg

olapert10/16/2019, 3:21:55 PM1 votes

where can i read this

GoldenKnifeFTW10/16/2019, 4:20:13 PM1 votes

My issue with how the treat the jungle role is they make changes because people complain about early game junglers but they add so many changes that benefit early game junglers and making mid to late game junglers either impossible to play making the champ pool for junglers stale or make late game junglers impossible to do anything compared to a fed laner because jungle exp is always getting nerfed while laners exp gets buff like why does top need even more influence than it already has. Not only that it makes laners so damn dependant on ganks anytime you are farming your jungle you get yelled at because you aren't camping them after you just got done clearing your second camp. They balance nearly everything around high elo/pro play but don't care how it affects the majority of there player base which is low elo. Just nerf the damn early game junglers instead of nerfing every junglers exp because you can't correctly balance you game. Wait i am getting told from my boss that mid lane is also getting a exp boost >_< yes make the game more easier for jungle to camp top and mid to snowball the game causeing them to just roam bot side and end the game because what is the adc and support gonna do they got lower exp compared to a fed zed or riven but we are removing spear and giving it to everyone :) and making dragons the next scuttle crab buff making early game junglers a must next season great job riot!

Anime Fizz10/16/2019, 4:35:42 PM1 votes

Good, enough of this jungle meta let top/mid have their time.

tunehunter10/16/2019, 9:25:16 PM1 votes

Do you think we will be able to pick up the support item while in the jungle. The change to it makes me hopeful for it being a sightstone that way I can perform my second support roll properly after 6 minutes.

PaffWasTaken10/16/2019, 10:29:21 PM1 votes

Buff back jungle XP, nerf amount of gold received on an assist with a jungler involved before 10 minutes. This way, farming jungle actually has an advantage and perma ganking or straight out camping won't be this 100% win-win situation anymore

Sire Hippington10/16/2019, 11:53:57 PM1 votes

I think the lower shared xp helps a bit by punishing camping a lane a bit more. However, instead of buffing gromp to krug xp and an early lvl 3 while nerfing general jungle xp, they should nerf krugs xp to be on pair with current gromp(atleast for first clear) but buff xp/gold past the first clear a bit, or just lower respawntimers with adjusted numbers. Maybe also increase ho and lower damag of buff camps early on to delay the lvl 2 a bit.

The main issue for me as a laner is that junglers(the few that are meta that is) tend to hit the lvl 2 and/or 3 spike befor me and they can basically come at my lane and solo me(usually forceing a recall) because of that. The high early xp just creates insane earlygame gank preassure. At the same time, the high respawntimers and bad gold/xp scaleing means a) (meta)junglers don't need to spend much time in their jungle as they spend half the time waiting for respawns and b) even if camps respawn, the reward for powerfarming isn't high enough compared to high gank preassure.

This issue becomes worse with how hard it is to deal with ganks as sololaner. vision is just horrible, the warding totem allows for a magnificent ~40% uptime on a sinlge ward, so you spent most time with no vision at all. And that with most junglers haveing 3-4 potential gank paths and atleast early on enough damage to basically solo kill or atleast force you back. And if the lane/jungle combo is ahead or simply premade, they can just dive with ease and it doesn't matter if you ward.

So yea, with how easy ganking/camping is atm, and how little reward powerfarm offers in comparsion, i really don't see how lowering the rewards for powerfarming even more is going to make this any better.

ihateyouallmuted10/17/2019, 3:35:27 AM1 votes

Reduced xp was the right call - increased spawn rates should be corresponding if not adding another jg camp entirely. I proposed a camp that is designed the way Poacher's Dirk was (that is, stealing enemy camps should be highly rewarded for the risk). If you kill your own kwizzle or whatever the fuck you call it, you get about 50g, if you kill the enemy one, you get 100g and a zombie ward that you can place (visible, doesn't detect stealth). There should be value lost when camping. Currently there is none. Power farming junglers should receive less xp than laners, but comparable gold. Gank junglers should be balanced around the fact that for every resource they lose, they are robbing an enemy laner of much more. Pulled off well, you will not fall very far behind and have sums of gold from plating/kills and xp from sharing with your laners.

At some point, you can't make changes like this though. The game can't exist in a state where Master Yi doing nothing but killing camps is the right call just because it makes him more powerful than he should become without interaction. I don't know where this breakpoint is, but I do know which side of the spectrum we are currently on.