AP Bruiser Items: A Suggestion

ModThe Djinn·2/25/2019, 6:19:30 PM·15 votes·7,047 views

AP Bruisers are in a weird spot. Champions who like AP but also durability, they're forced to adapt to mage and tank items, as itemization that exists in the gap between the two is often too appealing to assassins, mages, or other champions who might cause issues if they had reliable access to ability power and durability. On the flip side, an AP Bruiser with ratios high enough to survive on items unappealing to traditional casters becomes problematic when build with traditional caster items and high AP values.

To me, the issue stems from a discrepancy in the available tuning levels for AD and AP champion scaling. AD champions have Base Attack Damage, Total Attack Damage, Bonus Attack Damage, Attack Speed, Cooldown Reduction, and Critical Strike Chance, all of which can be tuned or itemized for individually. This means that an AD champion has a number of ways to balance their damage output, and by adjusting one or more of these numbers you can heavily change their itemization preferences.

AP champions, meanwhile, have Ability Power and Cooldown Reduction, and I feel as long as this is the case it'll be challenging to design good AP Bruiser items that don't risk overlapping with tanks and/or mages and assassins to a problematic degree.


#So what can we do?

One solution would be providing Base Ability Power to champions. This would let us tie items in to this base ability power value, such as an item that grants +50% base ability power. The advantage here is that it's fairly easy to understand and tunable on an individual basis, but we do lose the ability to really have the same concept of an item spike, as your AP ratios would have to consider this base value (so it couldn't start too high) and the base ability power value might grow over the game, which would make our characters automatically scale into the late-game, which is potentially undesirable in some cases.

Another solution might be a new stat -- say, Inner Reserve. This would start out at a set number based on the champion, such as 80 or 100. You could then create items with effects like "gain AP equal to 50% of your Inner Reserve (60)." This would let us specifically tailor item strengths on a per-champion basis and prevent abuse by tanks or mages by lowering their Inner Reserve values, but it lacks the clarity and immediate comprehensibility of the previous suggestion which limits us to a specific stat. It also messes with gold values slightly, because two champions might not get the same value of ability power out of the item. Of the two this is the solution I feel is stronger though, as it means we can still tune champions to have specific item spikes or high/low points in their power curves -- something that I think is sacrificed too much in the first option.

Both of these would, however, give us more levers to make AP bruiser itemization, and I feel that there is a definite need for more levers.

##Thoughts? Comments? Suggestions?

49 Comments

Moody P2/25/2019, 6:23:54 PM6 votes

What champions even count as AP bruisers? there's almost no way to slot in items for a group that's not even got 5 people who the item is intended for

CasterGilgamesh2/25/2019, 9:52:53 PM5 votes

for the love of god riot needs to just start by adding back item 3170 back to the rift and it would be a good step in the right direction [sg-soraka]

Linna Excel2/25/2019, 6:32:15 PM4 votes

I think part of the problem with AP bruiser items and why riot hasn't gone deeper into them is because both AP carries and AP tanks might want them.

Is item 3157item 3102item 3151 item 3116 an APC's build without a mana item or an AP tank's damage build?

ChaosReyn2/25/2019, 6:44:31 PM4 votes

I think my biggest worry about AP bruisers as a whole is the return of "tank ekko"

Other than that, I feel like the first option almost wouldn't even be an option. If we provide base AP to champions, the hybrid damage marksmen would have mixed damage with no investment at all, and even with scaling to compensate the mages, there'd be a very fine line to walk in keeping them from becoming either completely unviable, or absolutely op fiends.

So I'd have to agree, between the two options you've given, I'd say making more levers makes the most sense. Same thing they did by changing Stormrazor: made crit builds something you had to actually invest in again, instead of just permanently auto-critting. However, I don't think that a new stat is necessarily the best way.

My lever, personally, would be something similar to how eternity works with Catalyst items, only converting a low percentage of HP into AP. With higher hp, you'd gain more AP, but it wouldn't be even remotely comparable to the AP you'd get from say Luden's or Morellonomicon unless you specifically built a full HP build, and sacrificed other, stronger damage items, meaning AP assassins and burst mages wouldn't want these. I'll try and flesh something out in C&C to give a hard example of what I'm trying to describe.

Saianna2/25/2019, 8:06:12 PM1 votes

We used to have abyssal staff (i think), that was decent item for engaging-close combat mages, that was replaced into this garbage item 3001

Personally, Riot should just create items with negative stats. This will fix every damn issue we have. Want an item for bruiser but you are afraid of ADC/fighters exploiting it? Just add negative AS, or crit chance. Suddenly it's an item noone is willing to get than bruisers. Want bruiser mage item? Then just slap some negative stat that will make mages think trice before they'd buy it. Want tanks to have solid armor/MR options, but you are afraid of bruisers/juggernauts abusing it? Just create an item with negative damage.

Negative stats, if made correctly, would fix most of, if not all, item issues we have.

But if that's a no-go, then tvh most of AP items are already bruiser'ish, cause almost anything you can buy adds HP. I know HP isn't really bruiser thing, but Riot made it very clear they don't want to give mages any defense stats beyond HP.

Mael Jade2/25/2019, 9:03:42 PM1 votes

AP Bruiser and AP on hit are just dead. AP on hit build? item 3115 and maybe item 3124 if you got some 3hit-passive or higher, but again this is a hybrid item already. Outside of that? item 3091 as defensive on hit item for heavy magic damage builds since it also amplifies Nashors and Rageblade on hit (and innate on hit) but that's it so AP on hit has to use crit items (bad cause they scale with AD) or just go for full ap after these 2 items.

Mael Jade2/25/2019, 9:07:23 PM1 votes

Another thing: It does not even have to be a bruiser item but just a normal AP upgrade but can we please get a item 3140 upgrade with some AP on it? The way Riot forces some kind of surpress or "qss tax" champion into the meta every 6 months it is just a dead item for mid lane mages that have to build it. 30 MR can be build cheaper and outside of that you only got the active, making your champions have only 4 item slots for free choice (outside of boots). Viktor got the bad end with 3 locked items (Hexcore+Qss+Boots is half his inventory and only one grants fighting power) and Cassio the good end with 5 other items

Saezio2/25/2019, 6:29:52 PM1 votes

I think that AP bruisers should have higher base damages on their abilities and shit ratios. BUT make their base damages be level reliant .

The problem is that this would lock champions behind a specific gameplay pattern.

there could be items that modify abilities' base damages though, and not benefit their scaling so that Mages and assassins can't abuse them

Lovelle2/25/2019, 10:50:06 PM1 votes

Ekko Elise Evelynn Fizz

Do these champs really need to be tankier, without sacrificing dps?

Gragas Chogath Singed Rumble

They would also greatly benefit from such changes.

5050BS2/25/2019, 10:54:54 PM1 votes

I dont know why Riot hasnt changed over to % of a "Base Stat" for more things all together.

We have Base AD and Base Mana Regen/HP Regen

Why not Base HP, Base AP, Base Mana

That way One item gives 80 AP to Veigar but only 50 AP to say Ekko

You can adjust the Base % values of the items and power much easyer

Glaricion2/26/2019, 7:33:47 AM1 votes

note: AP Bruiser isn't an official class, but we all get a somewhat similar idea of gameplay patterns. (surprised no one mentioned Skarner ) Kind of like how ADC doesn't really fit too many champions, but we all know what it means.

relevant: Negative stats are cool, may cause bugs. Innate stats can be good, but might railroad champion builds and takes a lot of work.

For AP bruiser items, many AP bruisers want to be auto attacking, so adding ATS stats and AA reliant passives should steer assassins and tanks away from these items.

Yes, a 60AP item w/ large amounts of resistances will look appealing to both assassins and tanks, but hopefully siphoning resistances and AP off to stats more relevant to AP Bruisers (ATS and AA based passives) would limit the cases of problem item poaching via reducing the effective gold efficiency of the items outside of the target champion class(es).

Think about it like Wit's End w/ some AP added, AP Madred's, or Iceborne getting its AP back. AP.

Some edge cases like Ekko might latch onto the items more than intended, but can always be retuned if necessary.

Jmman2/26/2019, 2:35:01 PM1 votes

I Think part are the issue is that they are gated by Mana. 2nd issue is AD bruiser have sustain items.

item 3091 changed to 60 ap, 10 CD, 200hp attack and spell damage lower MR by 4% stacking 6 times. build path is item 3916 item 3108 + gold

item 3170 put in the game

New item (Deaths embrace) 50ap, 400hp, Damaging an enemy with a spells you gain 4% spell vamp. This can stack 5 times. last for x secs.

FUN ITEM

(Rod of summoning) item 3010 item 3145 item 3105 40ap, 300 hp/mana, 30 mr/ac. Passive killing a minion/monster heals for 3% of max hp over 3 secs. Killing a players heals for 15% over 3 secs. active - shoots a blitz arm at enemy and pulls him to you. Range is determined by AP. 0 to 150 = short range, 150 to 300=medium range, 350+ = long range

These will scale up or have ramp up times. This should keep them out of the hands of burst mages and made my DoT and bruisers different item sets.

And they will need to be tried to see if they are op or too weak or not getting the desired champs to build them.

JuiceBoxP2/26/2019, 10:12:16 PM1 votes

AP brusiers....

This is what i think about them and have written that in a different thread created by The Djinn, leading me to write this here.

this is what i said:

IMO their current issue is that they are forced to build tank items to compensate their lack of items who give damage + survivability AND they get boasted AP ratios on their abilities to compensate the low AP in their build path.... so.. they really abuse high AP builds.

Honestly, i think what you suggested in the OP, is AWFULLY too complicated and would have to be applied to every champion the game because you are basically changing the way champions gain AP... with this inner reserve thing. like every champion has his own scaling(this is what i understood from what you said, please correct me if i miss-understood)

The first option that comes to mind..... is itemization... make tailored items for them which could not be abused by other classes.... just sounds very difficult to make. i'd have to brainstorm for a while to come up with something like this...

HOWEVER, i did think of another solution.

Diminishing returns scaling on abilities.

Basically decide which champions you consider AP brusiers and give their skills diminishing returns. If they decide to build high AP builds it will discourage them to do so because it will not be very efficient for them. It will however encourage them to build their more traditional path which involves tank items.

Would love if you tell me what you think, The Djinn.

Ragnaveil2/26/2019, 10:32:39 PM1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EVZrr9jA,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-02-25T18:19:30.439+0000)

One solution would be providing Base Ability Power to champions. This would let us tie items in to this base ability power value, such as an item that grants +50% base ability power.

You already got my attention with this alone. Having this would fix soooo many more problems than just AP bruiser stuff.