My thoughts on possible changes for Zyra

Cirrostratus·Jun 19, 2015·2 votes·802 views

Hello everyone!

I am a Zyra enthusiast, and honestly, I don't think she's all that weak currently. However, I do think Zyra lacks a bit of a niche. Currently, she is like a worse hybrid of Azir and Heimerdinger plant-wise with spells that are kind of unique, but not necessarily making her worth picking over the competition. I do love her ult though, I think that really does fill a unique niche not seen on many other champions.

What would be my preferred niche for Zyra to fill? The niche she currently already kind of fills: zone control. Furthermore, I'd love to push her into a bit more of a DPS-mage style, by making her plants better as the game goes on.

My proposed changes:

Passive: Her current passive, but a bit different. When she dies, she returns to her old form and gains the ability to shoot a spike after a delay. When she manages to hit something, she will revive, having x% of her maximum health + y% of the damage dealt to enemies. Has a cooldown of a seconds (possibly: that goes down by b seconds on levels c/d/e/f/g/whatever).

What does this accomplish? This basically makes Zyra's passive a lot more interesting. Currently, one of the major complaints is that Zyra's passive is hardly rewarding. You die, you shoot it after a delay, you'll likely miss it because the delay is rather long so people can run like hell when they kill you, and then... You're still dead. Best you can hope for is a kill trade. I believe the semi-revive will make Zyra less of a tasty vegetable everyone wants to eat and will make people a bit more wary of jumping on her when she has it up. The ease with which you can jump on her is one of the reasons she's kind of weak currently.

W: Her plants take 50% less damage from AoE abilities (like how monster autos only deal half a chunk hp thingy per hit).

What does this accomplish? Currently it's a bit too easy to just AoE down her plants, making them virtually useless for no real investment from the enemy team.

R:

Added passive: Zyra's plants gain 1/2/3 extra health chunk thingies. Scales with ult rank.

What does this accomplish? Zyra's plants are pretty useless at times, as they are so easily killed. This addition gives her better lategame DPS thanks to more plant survivability and overall helps her out as the league's major plant mage.

Active: Plants hit by the ult will have their lifespan extended for 5 seconds.

What does this accomplish? Again, makes her plants more useful.

The accomplishments of these changes

She'll have 3 passives, worthy of a CertainlyT champion.
Her lategame will improve as a DPS mage.
She'll actually have a proper innate passive instead of ''lol i died and my post-mortem form is kinda useless''.

Changes that might be needed

Current Zyra might be a bit too bursty for a ''DPS mage'', perhaps her damage on skills should be tuned down and tuned up on plants. Not sure how this will affect her support role.

I'd love to hear your opinion on these changes. I've just brainstormed a bit and decided to post my ideas to see if they are interesting and whether or not people think they'll adress her key issues.

7 Comments

Drunk RummateJun 19, 20152 votes

I think Zyra is fine with the exception of her passive, which needs a total rework. I play her a ton in support and I think with the new itemization changes she may even become a viable mid.

I also wish her W gave 15% CDR at rank 5 instead of 10% just because 35% with Morello feels sad to me, but that's more quality of life than anything.

manbearswineJun 24, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Well first of all,let me give you a break down on zyra's current status,hopefully to save you some time: I have talked to a lot of people(mostly focusing on support mains,as that is what seems to be considered her strongest position at the moment),at diamond-challenger(I couldn't care less what arrogant silvers(most of them tend to be that way) think),and the general consensus is that she is bad-terrible(people who never play her think she's bad,people who occasionally play her think she's worse),even though the consensus is very strong(in fact I got the opinions of two competitive support mains on streams) riot doesn't care,so I'm sure riot is aware of her issues and just doesn't give a flying fuck,your best hope is that she will get some buffs close to receiving a new skin,I think this is the only scenario where riot might consider doing something about her current state,anyway:

As to her passive change: Not a very big fan of it,I think zyra's weakness should be dying and giving her a revive seems to counteract that,I am actually fine with her passive as is and if buffs were to finally happen(as if) I'd rather they'd be done elsewhere.

What does this accomplish? Currently it's a bit too easy to just AoE down her plants, making them virtually useless for no real investment from the enemy team.

Her plants already take reduced damage from aoe,though I do agree they should be more resistance to aoe,not sure if that's the way it should be done(I would prefer them to be immune to aoe for 2 seconds after spawning,refreshed if ulted,or something of the sort),but I definitely agree with your line of thought here,especially "making them virtually useless for no real investment from the enemy team."

What does this accomplish? Zyra's plants are pretty useless at times, as they are so easily killed. This addition gives her better lategame DPS thanks to more plant survivability and overall helps her out as the league's major plant mage.

Zyra's plants scale with the abilities(3 aoe spells/3 autos/1 single target spell+1 aa/etc) used on them instead of ratios/pens/etc,I don't think they need more hp,I do think they need to put some work into their current death patterns,but I don't think it should scale with levels in her ult,I also definitely think you should not be able to lifesteal or spellvamp off of them,that's just fucking retarded.

She'll have 3 passives, worthy of a CertainlyT champion.

Please no,zyra is one of his champions who's not a retarded mess,no reason to change that.

Changes that might be needed

Current Zyra might be a bit too bursty for a ''DPS mage'', perhaps her damage on skills should be tuned down and tuned up on plants. Not sure how this will affect her support role.

Don't let retards fool you,her burst and dps is "fine",that is,it might be high,but she definitely pays the price for it,in fact,she pays too much,that's why you never see her.

But mostly: give it up,zyra has been garbage for more than a year,riot doesn't care,go main ahri/thresh like everybody else.

CirrostratusJun 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Well first of all,let me give you a break down on zyra's current status,hopefully to save you some time: I have talked to a lot of people(mostly focusing on support mains,as that is what seems to be considered her strongest position at the moment),at diamond-challenger(I couldn't care less what arrogant silvers(most of them tend to be that way) think),and the general consensus is that she is bad-terrible(people who never play her think she's bad,people who occasionally play her think she's worse),even though the consensus is very strong(in fact I got the opinions of two competitive support mains on streams) riot doesn't care,so I'm sure riot is aware of her issues and just doesn't give a flying fuck,your best hope is that she will get some buffs close to receiving a new skin,I think this is the only scenario where riot might consider doing something about her current state,anyway:

As to her passive change: Not a very big fan of it,I think zyra's weakness should be dying and giving her a revive seems to counteract that,I am actually fine with her passive as is and if buffs were to finally happen(as if) I'd rather they'd be done elsewhere.

I personally love her passive, it fits thematically and I love trying to hit it. I do, however, think Zyra needs a bit of help, since she is so easily jumped. If we look at another incredibly immobile mage, namely Anivia, we see that she does not only have the best revive passive in the game (and one that requires no skill from the player at that), she also has better self-peel in the form of multiple slows and a stun.

Zyra's self-peel is... questionable. Her E is rather slow and since it's a root, it does not prevent the enemy from using abilities (except for mobility ones, ofcourse), so it tends to not work very well, especially against really mobile targets. Her ultimate is ofcourse a decent peel ability, but the knockup is really delayed, so the enemy has enough time to burst Zyra down.

I am not saying that this is the best solution for Zyra's passive, but I think she could use a little help. Also, ''dying'' is everyone's weakness, isn't it?

So, to summarize my reasoning for why a revive could work: She is an incredibly immobile mage, one of the squishiest ones as well, and her self-peel is questionable. She needs something to fall back on. Making it more rewarding to hit her passive is also good, as her current passive is underwhelming and feels kind of bad (dying is bad, but if people are able to walk away easily after they've killed you, that's even more sad).

To balance it out, the revive ability itself should be put on a CD ofcourse. She can only revive using her passive every x seconds, if she dies while it's on CD, it'll just be similar to her current passive.

Her plants already take reduced damage from aoe,though I do agree they should be more resistance to aoe,not sure if that's the way it should be done(I would prefer them to be immune to aoe for 2 seconds after spawning,refreshed if ulted,or something of the sort),but I definitely agree with your line of thought here,especially "making them virtually useless for no real investment from the enemy team."

I thought they did already take reduced AoE damage, but I could not really find anything about it when I was writing this post. At least something needs to be done to make her plants feel less meh.

Zyra's plants scale with the abilities(3 aoe spells/3 autos/1 single target spell+1 aa/etc) used on them instead of ratios/pens/etc,I don't think they need more hp,I do think they need to put some work into their current death patterns,but I don't think it should scale with levels in her ult,I also definitely think you should not be able to lifesteal or spellvamp off of them,that's just fucking retarded.

Where did I write something about LS/SV'ing off of them? Or is that just a sidenote? I do not see anything in my post that refers to such a thing.

Please no,zyra is one of his champions who's not a retarded mess,no reason to change that.

I was ofcourse kidding with that one, a little bit of circlejerk for the fun of it. And honestly, the way her ult passive would be set up, it's not much of a ''lol extra power top kek'' passive (see Ekko's W passive), but more of a power gating mechanic to prevent her from bullying everyone out of lane early with ridiculously tanky plants (for that stage of the game). I'm not sure whether more health chunks would be the best way to help her plants, it was the first thing that came to mind for me though.

Don't let retards fool you,her burst and dps is "fine",that is,it might be high,but she definitely pays the price for it,in fact,she pays too much,that's why you never see her.

I actually play her mid myself occasionally. The reason I think her burst is a bit over the top is that it's too easy to burst people with your entire combo, though I suppose that's not necessarily bad. I personally don't mind, though I thought that if my proposed changes would put her over the top, she could have her burst cut down rather than her plants.

But mostly: give it up,zyra has been garbage for more than a year,riot doesn't care,go main ahri/thresh like everybody else.

I actually main Ahri/Viktor currently, so that's something. But yeah, this thread was more me spouting ideas than anything. I am not delusional enough to hope for Riot to actually respond to something like this.

Anyway, thanks for your input. The changes I proposed were more focused at mid Zyra than at support Zyra (I personally prefer mid Zyra since mid is my favourite lane), as you may have noticed.

manbearswineJun 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I personally love her passive, it fits thematically and I love trying to hit it. I do, however, think Zyra needs a bit of help, since she is so easily jumped.

Well this is one of the things I kinda need to insist on,zyra needs a lot more than "a bit of help",she is in a horrible state right now(though its generally something which only the higher elos can understand),now I don't think that you meant she only needed a bit,but I just don't like that choice of words,it's like caving to the demands of retards on the forums,who can't stand such phrases.

If we look at another incredibly immobile mage, namely Anivia, we see that she does not only have the best revive passive in the game (and one that requires no skill from the player at that), she also has better self-peel in the form of multiple slows and a stun.

Well first of all obviously you would want to differntiate the two,secondly(and more importantly) zyra needs more power,you can give her that in the form of a revive passive...or in something more fun,I prefer the second option.

Zyra's self-peel is... questionable. Her E is rather slow and since it's a root, it does not prevent the enemy from using abilities (except for mobility ones, ofcourse), so it tends to not work very well, especially against really mobile targets. Her ultimate is ofcourse a decent peel ability, but the knockup is really delayed, so the enemy has enough time to burst Zyra down.

Buffing her self peel is definitely a good idea,fits better into her identity and weaknesses,and seems more fun,I think.

I am not saying that this is the best solution for Zyra's passive, but I think she could use a little help. Also, ''dying'' is everyone's weakness, isn't it?

Well not exactly,for example when support zyra(I'll mention later why I focus on support zyra) loses her lane,she tends to do that by dying(since she explodes so easily),when naut/ali/thresh lose the lane,it's more often by being poked down. I want to maintain zyra's weakness to burst and focus,not make her more resistant to it,that was my point.

So, to summarize my reasoning for why a revive could work: She is an incredibly immobile mage, one of the squishiest ones as well, and her self-peel is questionable. She needs something to fall back on. Making it more rewarding to hit her passive is also good, as her current passive is underwhelming and feels kind of bad (dying is bad, but if people are able to walk away easily after they've killed you, that's even more sad).

To balance it out, the revive ability itself should be put on a CD ofcourse. She can only revive using her passive every x seconds, if she dies while it's on CD, it'll just be similar to her current passive.

I never said it wouldn't work,when a champion is weak there are plenty of ways to buff him/her,I just think a revive passive would homogenize her(more similar to anivia) and make her identity less clear(more resistant to burst and focus).

I thought they did already take reduced AoE damage, but I could not really find anything about it when I was writing this post. At least something needs to be done to make her plants feel less meh.

The damage zyra's plants take is a headache,they are already coded in a rather strange way,you are right that in plenty of cases they die from randomly aoe without any commitment from the enemy team,and I agree that it's still a problem.

Where did I write something about LS/SV'ing off of them? Or is that just a sidenote? I do not see anything in my post that refers to such a thing.

Well,you made a thread about zyra changes,and I think that really needs to go away,it's fucking beyond stupid.

I was ofcourse kidding with that one, a little bit of circlejerk for the fun of it.

Well the problem is comments like that tend to gather more hate than anything else,I wouldn't be surprised if you got some downvotes out of that alone(which makes less people see the thread),be careful with anything implying certaintlyT is a good designer...or vice versa...

And honestly, the way her ult passive would be set up, it's not much of a ''lol extra power top kek'' passive (see Ekko's W passive), but more of a power gating mechanic to prevent her from bullying everyone out of lane early with ridiculously tanky plants (for that stage of the game). I'm not sure whether more health chunks would be the best way to help her plants, it was the first thing that came to mind for me though.

Well thing is it takes 3 autos to kill at all stages of the game,and I think that's fair and shouldn't be increased,but as I've said before the way they die in many scenarios is just silly,maybe make them more resistant to aoe with R levels,that can also make sense.

I actually play her mid myself occasionally. The reason I think her burst is a bit over the top is that it's too easy to burst people with your entire combo, though I suppose that's not necessarily bad. I personally don't mind, though I thought that if my proposed changes would put her over the top, she could have her burst cut down rather than her plants.

It's definitely sensible,but such comments(especially since you didn't say "IF the changes put her over the top") are rather pointless,zyra as she is now is very far away from viability.

I actually main Ahri/Viktor currently, so that's something. But yeah, this thread was more me spouting ideas than anything. I am not delusional enough to hope for Riot to actually respond to something like this.

Perhaps you misunderstood me,I for example have been waiting for zyra buffs for more than a year(yes,she's been trash for that long,and yes,"trash",not just bad),don't join the salt club,move on to champions who haven't been unofficially discontinued by riot.

Anyway, thanks for your input. The changes I proposed were more focused at mid Zyra than at support Zyra (I personally prefer mid Zyra since mid is my favourite lane), as you may have noticed.

Well the reason I focus on support zyra is because she has been historically considered stronger than mid zyra(hell,riot even changed her suggested items to that of a support),so unless they don't do a large scale rework support zyra should still come out stronger than mid zyra and since balance is focused around the position the champion is the strongest at,I generally focus on support zyra in balance threads(also I'm more familiar with her state as a support,mid I mostly just know she sucks).

One thing I would suggest for mid zyra is to let he plants damage towers(perhaps by using w on the turret like azir does),because right now assassins(or mobile anything) can push her and roam and there's not much she can do(following them will probably result in death),so letting her pressure them to go back to their tower(or choose between tower and pressure in other lanes),seems like a good idea.

IamCloudJun 19, 20151 votes

I love to play Zyra. She's different. But i think that to change her you need to put in one or two of these, not all. Mostly her passive. Personally i think it needs to be changed completely because there should be no reason for you to die to have to use it. And while your idea is unique, i dont think riot would implement it.

Her passive could maybe be like every ultimate upgrade her plants get stronger. For example

Lvl6- Range increased by X amount

Lvl11- Health bar increased by X amount

Lvl16-puts down 2 seeds instead of 1 (maybe, but might be op)

She's all about them plants, so give her something to smile about

MoussetracksJun 19, 20151 votes

I play Zyra a fair bit, and I think the one thing she needs....

IS A %!#%$^ BETTER AI FOR HER PLANTS!

You hit someone with a Q, place an seed right on top of it. Plant sprouts, hits the champ because you hit them with a spell. They walk away to about 1/2 of the plants total range and the plant CHANGES targets to a minion. WHY IS THIS? They never left the plants range, so it should keep attacking them. I fully support that if they do leave the plants range, Zyra would have to hit them with another spell, or an auto in order to get them to re-target, but don't lose the primary.

Also, why do they sometimes take so long to shoot after aquiring a target? I've had them sit there for about double the time of their AS waiting to attack a target for some reason.

CirrostratusJun 20, 20151 votes

Agreed, her plant AI is retarded at times. I suppose that they should fix that first before implementing all sorts of other changes.