Liandry's Torment has an identity crisis

IziMytTJd7·2/4/2017, 12:27:02 AM·66 votes·6,749 views

Is it a tank buster? % health damage suggests so. But the damage is underwhelming at best.

Is it a squishy squasher? 15 magic pen suggests so. However, the mpen is almost useless vs tanks. Consider this - 15 magic pen increases your damage to targets based on their mr as follows:

Target w/ 15 mr: 15% damage increase Target w/ 50 mr: 11.1% damage increase Target w/ 100 mr: 8.1% damage increase Target w/ 200 mr: 5.2% damage increase Target w/ 300 mr: 3.9% damage increase

This means that with 15 mpen you do the above percentages MORE damage to the target than you did without the 15 mpen. Since you aren't doing much damage vs high mr targets to begin with, the percent increase means even less. Below you see the absolute percent damage increase (target's percent damage reduction WITH your 15 mpen minus target's percent damage reduction WITHOUT your 15 mpen).

Target w/ 15 mr: 13% Target w/ 50 mr: 7.4% Target w/ 100 mr: 4% Target w/ 200 mr: 1.7% Target w/ 300 mr: 1%

Is it a tank item? The 300 hp suggests so. But it feels so out of place. Especially since there are many other items you can get hp from.

So in what situation should you buy liandry's? It feels that in every situation you are losing out on efficiency with this item.

93 Comments

Danjeng2/4/2017, 3:13:14 AM31 votes

It's a great damage item for DoT champions. The health gives survivability so they can keep casting throughout a fight without getting bursted down as easily. Magic penetration increases its potentness against squishies. % HP increases its effectiveness against tanky champs.

It's just a well-rounded damage item for mages who generally lack burst. The %HP scales with the enemy's stat, rather than AP, so that makes it good for supports who don't buy AP. Zyra, Brand, Malzahar come to mind.

The Yetii Rider2/4/2017, 5:59:14 AM19 votes

Liandry's Torment does not exist to be bought, it is intended to be a deterrent.

The item's niche is that it is extremely punishing against tanks who do not build MR (when Liandry's was first created it was common to rush Warmog's Armor). Your analysis is spot on in that it cannot do much to a squishy or a tank who itemizes against it, but try running the numbers of a 4000 health target with just 52 MR, you'll see the DPS.

Liandry's has been around long enough that it has accomplished its job. Tanks do not try and survive burst merely by stacking health and armor anymore. But you can't remove Liandry's because without the deterrent the desired change will just revert.

Hexs Fortune2/4/2017, 3:02:47 AM15 votes

Its sustained magic damage with some health attached to it. Clearly meant for winning drawn out battles. Think of it as a more offensive sunfire cape.

If you want to bust tanks build a void staff

DunkinNoobs2/4/2017, 4:04:10 PM10 votes

You're thinking about this all wrong. Liandries is an item for AP champs with low AP ratios. Both the magic pen and the % burn are there to supplement mages with high base damages but low AP ratios; think Zyra, Brand, etc. It's the same reason it used to be a must buy on Vel'koz before his rework.

Rebonack2/4/2017, 4:56:51 PM9 votes

Flat magic pen combined with %HP damage punishes low resist, high HP targets.

This isn't difficult to figure out.

notice me Sin pi2/4/2017, 4:55:08 PM8 votes

item 3151 was originally meant to counter health-only tanks few seasons ago. If this item is gone, then we'd potentially start seeing HP-stacking zero resistance DrMundo Zac Sejuani tank assassins in this "ADC in 2017 LUL" meta

Lord Malpercio2/4/2017, 8:35:44 AM6 votes

You know who likes that item?

Swain THIS CRAZY BIRD MAN RIGHT HERE.

It gives him HP, and allows him to fight better against the tanks who may be able to draw him into a prolonged fight that can drain his mana. Rylai's + Liandry's makes him extremely sticky during his ult, spread out a constant %HP AoE slow, and gives him health and AP.

It may not be -core- itemization, but it is certainly useful against tankier compositions.

IcyPepper2/4/2017, 5:22:32 AM5 votes

Well I mean it's a mask tho

IziMytTJd72/4/2017, 6:15:48 AM5 votes

Ok, I see what you're trying to argue now.

Let me ask you something. What has a bigger effect on the game:

  1. Killing an opponent in 1 hit instead of 2, or
  2. Killing an opponent in 39 hits instead of 40?

You are assuming that each reduced hit required has an equal value. In case 1 you just reduced the time to kill the target in half. You doubled your damage!! In case 2 you hardly reduced your time to kill the target at all. You hardly increased your damage. Ironically, YOU are the one with the misleading argument. I really can't make it easier for you to understand. You are just very confused.

Frius2/4/2017, 8:35:00 PM3 votes

Brand abuser ,permanent burn

IziMytTJd72/4/2017, 1:12:33 AM3 votes

Well, HG is naturally only good vs squishies, so building an item out of it that is meant for killing tanks doesn't make much sense. I think it needs to have it's stats more focused for killing tanks, which is notoriously difficult for mages (except for a certain fewCassiopeia ).

ModKnightsKemplar2/5/2017, 6:27:13 AM2 votes

Yeah, it's well documented. I was shocked when it didn't see significant changes during the MYMU last year. Seemed like a good time to do something with it.

That said, it IS best on champs with DOTs right now, I think.

Penns2/4/2017, 12:42:11 AM2 votes

I feel like it should just be split in 2 items that build out of HG. One for dot mages that already buy it and one for burst mages/assassins with more magic pen and some other passive/active.

Backup4now2/4/2017, 5:16:21 AM2 votes

Target w/ 15 mr: 13% etc etc

If you know your maths, you know displaying the percents in this way is incredibly misleading. 15 flat pen does exactly the same thing no matter how much magic resist they have, and by displaying it as "% increase" or "% decrease in their damage reduction", you are being disgraceful to statistics.

x (100%) health + 300 mr = 400% effective health. -15 pen = 385% effective health. x (100%) health + 15 mr = 115% effective health. -15 pen = 100% effective health. It's -15% effective health no matter what.

Yes, it's still better to buy flat pen vs squishy targets (assuming flat pen options are good), but that's because 35% of 30 magic resist is 10, so buying a void staff is just a bad idea compared to just buying flat pen.

IziMytTJd72/4/2017, 5:59:45 AM2 votes

I didn't give percentages. I gave absolute values. What don't you like about my example? Gain 10 damage vs squishy, and gain 1.8 damage vs tanky. Please, tell me what you disagree with here. Give me specific numbers that you think would be correct. You are just saying "I don't agree with you, deal with it." You refuse to give any specific argument. You are caught up with the "effective health" argument, but you don't seem to know how to actually apply it.

Proxy3452/4/2017, 6:19:25 AM2 votes

You buy it when you want to burst down tanks lol Its made for dot and continuous damage champs like Singed,Malzahar,Cass, Brand,Mundo,Amumu and Teemo.

Spice POWAH2/4/2017, 9:23:26 AM2 votes

Dual purpose?

Mechakaiser2/4/2017, 8:04:19 PM2 votes

Well It has crazy sinergy with a specific ítem. And not, not talking about rylai's... You'll have to find out my secret...

Ok sure but why2/4/2017, 12:33:59 AM2 votes

if they want it to be anti-tank, it should do %missing health instead of %current health and have that Giant Slayer passive but for magic damage tbh

Linna Excel2/5/2017, 4:18:21 AM1 votes

Okay at everything, good at nothing, wants you to buy rylai's.

So in what situation should you buy liandry's? It feels that in every situation you are losing out on efficiency with this item.

To answer this ask yourself did you buy Rylai's yet?

Thresh Outta Fux2/5/2017, 4:18:31 AM1 votes

Please, please delete your thread. Seriously begging ya, not in a rude way. Liandrys is the last item that needs attention right now. The item is fantastic when paired with a proper build to utilize it. In fact, 9 games out of 10 if I get a Liandrys it's GG. But it's always my 4th or 5th buy.

Trust me. "X feels out of place because Y" is dangerous, DANGEROUS thinking. That's the kind of shit that gets Riot to "Fix" something that isn't broken. Like Malzahar. Or Gangplank. Or removing Smite buffs. Or blanket nerfing a role when there are only 2-5 major offenders in that category.

junglerboy162/5/2017, 5:04:32 AM1 votes

I think the ideal niche for Liandry's should be akin to black cleaver, but for CC heavy tanks.

I know that that's the direction they were originally hoping to push Abyssal towards, but if they made the item lower in AP (probably reverted back to 60, maybe brought lower), higher in HP (more appealing to tanks), and made the DoT also apply a weak stacking MR shred with a cap (i.e. shreds 2% MR per second for x seconds, doubled vs movement impaired units, up to y% shred).

It should not be a strong damage item in the least, but it should have a lot of utility to make your APC hit like a truck. Tying the shred to a DoT effect will also ensure that you don't get situations where Tank engages with full rotation—>enemies' MR is instantly shredded—>APC one-shots enemy team.

With this type of design, it'll probably still be a decent pick for DoT mages, but it shouldn't be core on them.

YuGiHo2/5/2017, 5:07:00 AM1 votes

they missed a great chance with the assassin update to make an alternate upgrade for item 3136

Matake2/5/2017, 5:48:44 AM1 votes

IT IS A TANK ITEM. I discovered it is definitely for anybody who can poke or spam magic damage.

Light Up2/4/2017, 4:32:38 PM1 votes

i only buy it if i need the extra magic pen, but even this with a void staff and it still seems extremely lackluster.