Lethality build has NO real tradeoffs.

Glauciane·Oct 14, 2019·3 votes·2,930 views

1 - are way too easy to build. Even though they cost 2900, the 350$ path is ridiculously easy to build (The fact that both items have the same path is weird tbh). There's no early game point in which an assassin can't build anything due to lack of farming/killing income (Which is their main purpose after all). You played a bad laning phase? No worries, you'll easily get to build your core items anyway. (While mages 1250$ 850$ and adcs 1300$ 875$ , which DO NOT have an implicit killing-reward nature, have to deal with the expansive builds). Needless to say, CDR should be a tradeoff to damage.

2- also have pretty decent stats, and the same easy path issue. Getting tankier should be a tradeoff for Damage. But the armorpen passive of the the item, summed up to the (again) non-tradeoff 20% free CDR stats makes it an obvious, easy-taken choice.

Which ends up with AD-assassins building EVERY-SINGLE-GAME. And getting 40% cdr, 400 life, 150 AD (+ 40 lethality) + 24% armorpen with only 3 items. (WITH NO TRADEOFF AT ALL, SINCE THEY ALL have low mana costs, no mana at all or are junglers with high mp recuperation stats due to bluebuff/smite manaregen passive)

The worse of it all is that none of this is killing-rewarding. Assassins build should reward players that manage to store 1000+ gold for being sucessefull in accomplishing their main role: Kill. The path of those items rewards passive farming players that abuse the mobility of their champions to do so safely, and eventually 1hko since their build is easier to buy than the opponent one (Unless it's also an assassin). But when an assassine decides to take risks and get kills, the same easy build turns the whole game into a snowball.

I hate the way is a must, obvious 1rst item choice for mages, but it's onlye one item and not half of the buildpath.

71 Comments

VanCanBanManOct 14, 20194 votes

Cuz AD assassins are pretty much locked one build path that being item 3147 item 3142 item 3071 item 3814 item 3036 / item 3033 and Duskblade is a MUST HAVE on almost any champ that builds lethality. i think there should be more lethality item diversity

Zero ShingetsuOct 14, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Cuz AD assassins are pretty much locked one build path that being / and Duskblade is a MUST HAVE on almost any champ that builds lethality. i think there should be more lethality item diversity

I think there should be less lethality. Bake it into kits if it's so important to a champion's success. As I've proven in the past day, it's snap-of-the-fingers easy to come up with assassin kits that rely on something other than armor penetration to do their damage, so why can't that be where the diversity lies? Obviously the answer is "Because Riot won't do that" but that's not the point here.

I've never been a fan of Lethality. Any item build that directly negates what another player has built is... unfortunate. Grievous Wounds are the one thing I'm alright with on that front, because healing can absolutely make or break a game, and skilled players can still win fights without lifestealing or getting the heals they're used to.

Lethality, on the other hand, takes the core items of an entire role (that of the tank, and partially of bruisers too) and just... negates them. Just flat out cancels them out. Basically, if I build Thornmail for 2900, usually scraping it together because tanks often support... an assassin gets to negate a full 26% of the benefit by just completely ignoring 21 armor, while getting +55 AD, for the same amount of gold. Their 2900 not only gives them 2900 worth of AD, but negates 754 gold worth of my labor just by having the item.

EedatOct 14, 20192 votes

Any item build that directly negates what another player has built is... unfortunate.

Dude this is exactly what armor and MR do lmao. It's their entire point

Zero ShingetsuOct 14, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Dude this is exactly what armor and MR do lmao. It's their entire point

Armor and MR don't negate. They reduce damage on a percentile basis, and they can be bypassed by simply outplaying the other team and hitting squishies first. Lethality literally negates a portion of another player's stat entirely, and the only way around it is to literally avoid the champion building Lethality and not engage at all. Which is the opposite of a tank's job.

EedatOct 14, 20191 votes

Yes dude they negate the damage you build. Negating damage is the same thing as reducing damage. It negates your AD and AP. Thats literally their entire point lol. Armor/MR negate your AD/AP. Pen negates part of your Armor/MR

Zero ShingetsuOct 14, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Yes dude they negate the damage you build. Negating damage is the same thing as reducing damage. It negates your AD and AP. Thats literally their entire point lol. Armor/MR negate your AD/AP. Pen negates part of your Armor/MR

Let me try to explain this.

Armor: Reduces a percentage of damage sustained from physical sources. 100 Armor = -50% physical damage. Can be counteracted through one of various abilities or items that bypass armor.

Lethality: Reduces an established amount of armor. 21 Lethality = -21 Armor. Can be counteracted by not being anywhere near the champion with Lethality.

So let's assume the only method of penetration a champion is applying is All The Lethality Possible. Let's take a look at two builds, with the same number of items. And I'm not even sure I'm calculating Armor right, I'm being generous.

item 3110 item 3075 item 3143 item 3068 Cost: 11,250 Total Armor: 310 Damage Taken: 24% Damage from a Talon crit (no AD items): 52 (accounting for Randuin reduction)

item 3147 item 3814 item 3134 item 3142 Cost: 9,900 Bonus AD: 190 Armor Reduction: 67

item 3110 item 3075 item 3143 item 3068 vs. item 3147 item 3814 item 3134 item 3142 Total Armor: 243 Damage Taken: 29% Damage from a Talon crit (with item AD): 162 (accounting for Randuin reduction) Effective Armor Negation: 310 - 67 = -67 Armor Effective Cost Negation (Assassin's of Tank's): 310 armor - 67 armor = 0.21 * 11,250 = 2,431 gold negated

EFFECTIVE GOLD VALUE: 8,819 vs 9,990

White ONLY these four Lethality items, Talon is inflicting a little over three times as much damage as he otherwise would for 1,350 less gold. Cost negation is ballpark, as it doesn't account for health or utility, but chiefly, these items are damage reduction items.

Now let's look at the same build against a Hard AD Jinx build. We'll assume Jinx is using minigun, not rockets. Despite it being one of the top AD items, we won't use Infinity Edge, so as to avoid cheesing our crit calculations in favor of the ADC and making my argument look better. We also won't use any Lethality items, so the full Armor applies.

item 3110 item 3075 item 3143 item 3068 Cost: 11,250 Total Armor: 310 Damage Taken: 24% Damage from a Jinx crit (no AD items): 50 (accounting for Randuin reduction)

item 3812 item 3072 item 3508 item 3095 Cost: 13,400 Bonus AD: 290 Armor Reduction: 0

item 3110 item 3075 item 3143 item 3068 vs. item 3812 item 3072 item 3508 item 3095 Total Armor: 310 Damage Taken: 24% Damage from a Jinx crit (with item AD): 175 (accounting for Randuin reduction) Effective AD Negation: 290 - 0.76 = -220 AD Effective Cost Negation (Tank's of ADC's): 290 AD - 220 AD = 0.76 * 13,400 = 10,184 gold negated

EFFECTIVE GOLD VALUE: 11,250 vs. 3,216

Wait, what? Ah, but realize that every AD item in this build is at least as useful for its utility as it is for its AD.

Death's Dance provides delayed damage and self-healing. Bloodthirster provides lifesteal and overheal. Essence Reaver provides cooldown reduction, crit chance, and mana recovery. Stormrazor provides kiting potential and bonus magic damage, which wasn't even added to this calculation at all.

These values are not easy to quantify, and thus I haven't added them to the effective gold calculation at all. Whereas the tank's items are primarily useful for their high Armor value, Jinx's items - like all finished AD items - are primarily useful for the utility they provide. If I were to make a ballpark estimate of the utility value in all these items, I'd put it around 9,000 gold, which would place Jinx's effective value at 12,216... but again, these figures are almost possible to quantify, so this can't be taken as a practical calculation. Of course, I've also skipped a few of the highest AD items because either A, they added crit damage, or B, they added Lethality.

In addition, the tank's entire job is to be a target and soak damage. The AD carry's job is to push objectives and wear down melee fighters from a distance. A tank having 310 armor isn't preventing the ADC from doing her job. She can just avoid him and split push, let her tank block him while she maneuvers to flank squishies, etc. By stripping 21% of the tank's armor the assassin is actively making a tank 21% less able to do his job when he tries to draw the assassin's fire. Moreso if Black Cleaver is factored, because it increases all the damage he takes, not only from the assassin. No tank item reduces all damage an ADC inflicts.

In summary, Lethality items are cheaper than the items other AD champions build, and they're directly responsible for stripping somewhere in the realm of 2,500 gold from the tank's net worth. Hard tanks don't generally get to farm, so that gold isn't easy to come by. More likely, by the time the tank even approaches the last of these items, he's already died to the Lethality Assassin several times because said assassin has all his items already. And this doesn't even account for other items an assassin likes to build. I even put Serrated Dirk in there, and no late-game assassin has Serrated Dirk. Gimping the assassin's build, he still significantly hinders the tank's ability to, well, tank.

They are not the same thing.

Pika FoxOct 14, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-14T16:31:08.413+0000)

Let me try to explain this.

Armor: Reduces a percentage of damage sustained from physical sources. 100 Armor = -50% physical damage. Can be counteracted through one of various abilities or items that bypass armor.

Lethality: Reduces an established amount of armor. 21 Lethality = -21 Armor. Can be counteracted by not being anywhere near the champion with Lethality.

So let's assume the only method of penetration a champion is applying is All The Lethality Possible. Let's take a look at two builds, with the same number of items. And I'm not even sure I'm calculating Armor right, I'm being generous.

Cost: 11,250 Total Armor: 310 Damage Taken: 24% Damage from a Talon crit (no AD items): 52 (accounting for Randuin reduction)

Cost: 9,900 Bonus AD: 190 Armor Reduction: 67

vs. Total Armor: 243 Damage Taken: 29% Damage from a Talon crit (with item AD): 162 (accounting for Randuin reduction) Effective Armor Negation: 310 - 67 = -67 Armor Effective Cost Negation (Assassin's of Tank's): 310 armor - 67 armor = 0.21 * 11,250 = 2,431 gold negated

EFFECTIVE GOLD VALUE: 8,819 vs 9,990

White ONLY these four Lethality items, Talon is inflicting a little over three times as much damage as he otherwise would for 1,350 less gold. Cost negation is ballpark, as it doesn't account for health or utility, but chiefly, these items are damage reduction items.

Now let's look at the same build against a Hard AD Jinx build. We'll assume Jinx is using minigun, not rockets. Despite it being one of the top AD items, we won't use Infinity Edge, so as to avoid cheesing our crit calculations in favor of the ADC and making my argument look better. We also won't use any Lethality items, so the full Armor applies.

Cost: 11,250 Total Armor: 310 Damage Taken: 24% Damage from a Jinx crit (no AD items): 50 (accounting for Randuin reduction)

Cost: 13,400 Bonus AD: 290 Armor Reduction: 0

vs. Total Armor: 310 Damage Taken: 24% Damage from a Jinx crit (with item AD): 175 (accounting for Randuin reduction) Effective AD Negation: 290 - 0.76 = -220 AD Effective Cost Negation (Tank's of ADC's): 290 AD - 220 AD = 0.76 * 13,400 = 10,184 gold negated

EFFECTIVE GOLD VALUE: 11,250 vs. 3,216

Wait, what? Ah, but realize that every AD item in this build is at least as useful for its utility as it is for its AD.

Death's Dance provides delayed damage and self-healing. Bloodthirster provides lifesteal and overheal. Essence Reaver provides cooldown reduction, crit chance, and mana recovery. Stormrazor provides kiting potential and bonus magic damage, which wasn't even added to this calculation at all.

These values are not easy to quantify, and thus I haven't added them to the effective gold calculation at all. Whereas the tank's items are primarily useful for their high Armor value, Jinx's items - like all finished AD items - are primarily useful for the utility they provide. If I were to make a ballpark estimate of the utility value in all these items, I'd put it around 9,000 gold, which would place Jinx's effective value at 12,216... but again, these figures are almost possible to quantify, so this can't be taken as a practical calculation. Of course, I've also skipped a few of the highest AD items because either A, they added crit damage, or B, they added Lethality.

In addition, the tank's entire job is to be a target and soak damage. The AD carry's job is to push objectives and wear down melee fighters from a distance. A tank having 310 armor isn't preventing the ADC from doing her job. She can just avoid him and split push, let her tank block him while she maneuvers to flank squishies, etc. By stripping 21% of the tank's armor the assassin is actively making a tank 21% less able to do his job when he tries to draw the assassin's fire. Moreso if Black Cleaver is factored, because it increases all the damage he takes, not only from the assassin. No tank item reduces all damage an ADC inflicts.

In summary, Lethality items are cheaper than the items other AD champions build, and they're directly responsible for stripping somewhere in the realm of 2,500 gold from the tank's net worth. Hard tanks don't generally get to farm, so that gold isn't easy to come by. More likely, by the time the tank even approaches the last of these items, he's already died to the Lethality Assassin several times because said assassin has all his items already. And this doesn't even account for other items an assassin likes to build. I even put Serrated Dirk in there, and no late-game assassin has Serrated Dirk. Gimping the assassin's build, he still significantly hinders the tank's ability to, well, tank.

They are not the same thing.

An AD assassin will never kill a tank. Assassins are burst champions, and dont have the burst to kill a tank. Doesnt matter if they have more effective gold than the tank, they cant 100-0 them with that gold. Durability physically counters burst. Even that gimped ADC will do more damage overall than that ad assassin just because theyre DPS based (not to mention theyd likely build a LW if into that heavy a tank)

Hell, its more likely the tank will kill the assassin 1v1 than it is the assassin will get the kill.

Zero ShingetsuOct 14, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-14T16:41:05.414+0000)

An AD assassin will never kill a tank. Assassins are burst champions, and dont have the burst to kill a tank. Doesnt matter if they have more effective gold than the tank, they cant 100-0 them with that gold. Durability physically counters burst. Even that gimped ADC will do more damage overall than that ad assassin just because theyre DPS based (not to mention theyd likely build a LW if into that heavy a tank)

Hell, its more likely the tank will kill the assassin 1v1 than it is the assassin will get the kill.

I didn't say an AD assassin would kill a tank. They can rapidly soften up a tank for one or two allies to finish off. Assuming the above builds, with no bonus AD apart from what the Lethality items provide, Talon can inflict in less then six seconds, without ulting...

141 damage from Noxian Diplomacy (accounting for Randuin).
125 damage from Rake.
141 damage from Noxian Diplomacy.
81 damage from his basic attack.
181 damage from his passive.

That's a total of 669 damage. Without ulting. Against this build, that's 60% of all the tank's bonus life, gone in six seconds because of a single assassin. You take away the Serrated Dirk and add some raw AD and percentile penetration to that, you're approaching 1,500 damage from a single combo, and that's not even accounting for runes, which are the most disgusting aspect of the damage meta. That's easily a third of this tank's health.

You're ignoring the difference in figures between Only Lethality Items and No Items by simply making a strawman statement of "an AD assassin will never kill a tank".

Pika FoxOct 14, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-14T17:01:53.909+0000)

I didn't say an AD assassin would kill a tank. They can rapidly soften up a tank for one or two allies to finish off. Assuming the above builds, with no bonus AD apart from what the Lethality items provide, Talon can inflict in less then six seconds, without ulting...

141 damage from Noxian Diplomacy (accounting for Randuin).

125 damage from Rake.

141 damage from Noxian Diplomacy.

81 damage from his basic attack.

181 damage from his passive.

That's a total of 669 damage. Without ulting. Against this build, that's 60% of all the tank's bonus life, gone in six seconds because of a single assassin. You take away the Serrated Dirk and add some raw AD and percentile penetration to that, you're approaching 1,500 damage from a single combo, and that's not even accounting for runes, which are the most disgusting aspect of the damage meta. That's easily a third of this tank's health.

You're ignoring the difference in figures between Only Lethality Items and No Items by simply making a strawman statement of "an AD assassin will never kill a tank".

669 damage.... to a tank.... with nearly or over 3k HP. Yeah, REALLY softened them up. Such damage. Much wow. Im such afraid of that sub 1/3 of my HP in damage.

EedatOct 14, 20191 votes

Holy hell WUT?

Armor has a cost of 20g each so 67 flat pen negates 1370g, not 2400g. Second, you seem to think that flat pen counters armor when it's literally the exact opposite. Armor and flat pen cancel each other out equally. 1 armor cancels out 1 flat pen and vice versa. However, armor is far cheaper than lethality in both actual cost and opportunity cost. This is why flat pen is absolute dogshit against tanks and why armor is a direct counter to it, not vice versa. Everyone already knows this. You can completely cancel 3 full lethality items worth of Lethality with a single item 3075 and still have an extra 30 left over to negate some of the AD

Second, wtf is your math?

Cost: 11,250 Total Armor: 310 Damage Taken: 24% Damage from a Talon crit (no AD items): 52 (accounting for Randuin reduction)

vs.

Total Armor: 243 Damage Taken: 29% Damage from a Talon crit (with item AD): 162 (accounting for Randuin reduction) Effective Armor Negation: 310 - 67 = -67 Armor Effective Cost Negation (Assassin's of Tank's): 310 armor - 67 armor = 0.21 * 11,250 = 2,431 gold negated

How the hell does damage taken increase by a fifth but you claim the damage triples? Like what the fuck? Thats not how math works. 5/24 is about a fifth, not triple. The tank would take a fifth more damage with the flat pen than without it. Triple? What?

....Did you calculate the damage a Talon with no items would do then compare it to a Talon with items and then try to say the lethality was doing all of that??

Zero ShingetsuOct 14, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Holy hell WUT?

Armor has a cost of 20g each so 67 flat pen negates 1370g, not 2400g. Second, you seem to think that flat pen counters armor when it's literally the exact opposite. Armor and flat pen cancel each other out equally. 1 armor cancels out 1 flat pen and vice versa. However, armor is far cheaper than lethality in both actual cost and opportunity cost. This is why flat pen is absolute dogshit against tanks and why armor is a direct counter to it, not vice versa. Everyone already knows this. You can completely cancel 3 full lethality items worth of Lethality with a single and still have an extra 30 left over to negate some of the AD

Second, wtf is your math? Total Armor: 310 Damage Taken: 24% Damage from a Talon crit (no AD items): 52 (accounting for Randuin reduction) Damage Taken: 29% Damage from a Talon crit (with item AD): 162 (accounting for Randuin reduction) Effective Armor Negation: 310 - 67 = -67 Armor Effective Cost Negation (Assassin's of Tank's): 310 armor - 67 armor = 0.21 * 11,250 = 2,431 gold negated

How the hell does damage taken increase by a fifth but you claim the damage triples? Like what the fuck? Thats not how math works. 5/24 is about a fifth, not triple. The tank would take a fifth more damage with the flat pen than without it. Triple? What?

....Did you calculate the damage a Talon with no items would do then compare it to a Talon with items and then try to say the lethality was doing all of that??

I compared a Talon with no items to at Talon with only Lethality items. The point was that in addition to Lethality, those items add a substantial amount of raw AD for very little cost. This is chiefly what makes them imbalanced. By building purely Lethality items, Talon can triple his basic attack output against a tank with 310 armor.

Building the same amount of raw AD (190) with no Lethality would take you from 52 damage to 74 damage, an increase of only 0.7 times.

You get an additional 240% damage by building Lethality with that 190 AD than you would if you had only built the 190 AD.

Edit: Sorry, my math was wrong. 0.7 times, not 1.7 times. It's even worse than I thought.

Pika FoxOct 14, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-10-14T17:22:32.909+0000)

I compared a Talon with no items to at Talon with only Lethality items. The point was that in addition to Lethality, those items add a substantial amount of raw AD for very little cost. This is chiefly what makes them imbalanced. By building purely Lethality items, Talon can triple his basic attack output against a tank with 310 armor.

Building the same amount of raw AD (190) with no Lethality would take you from 52 damage to 74 damage, an increase of only 0.7 times.

You get an additional 240% damage by building Lethality with that 190 AD than you would if you had only built the 190 AD.

Edit: Sorry, my math was wrong. 0.7 times, not 1.7 times. It's even worse than I thought.

Face it, your argument is dead in the water.

EedatOct 14, 20192 votes

I compared a Talon with no items to at Talon with only Lethality items.

You cant be serious

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

Zero ShingetsuOct 14, 20191 votes

{quoted}

You cant be serious

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

How else am I going to measure the practical impact of Lethality items? I wasn't suggesting this is how Talon builds, I was using Talon as a mannequin to measure the impact of Lethality items. What problem do you have with this method, exactly? In terms deeper than "it's stupid", please. I like to improve my arguments with constructive criticism.

Pika FoxOct 14, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000001000000010000,timestamp=2019-10-14T17:38:10.278+0000)

How else am I going to measure the practical impact of Lethality items? I wasn't suggesting this is how Talon builds, I was using Talon as a mannequin to measure the impact of Lethality items. What problem do you have with this method, exactly? In terms deeper than "it's stupid", please. I like to improve my arguments with constructive criticism.

"If you buy items, you do more damage".

That is the argument you are making.

Zero ShingetsuOct 14, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000010000000100000000,timestamp=2019-10-14T17:40:56.219+0000)

"If you buy items, you do more damage".

That is the argument you are making.

You missed the rest of the math. I'll help you out by quoting myself for the second time in this thread. Just making sure no nefarious hiding of data is happening here.

Damage Taken: 24% Damage from a Talon crit (no AD items): 52 (accounting for Randuin reduction) Damage Taken: 29% Damage from a Talon crit (with item AD [of 190]): 162 (accounting for Randuin reduction)

Building the same amount of raw AD (190) with no Lethality would take you from 52 damage to 74 damage, an increase of only 0.7 times.

You get an additional 240% damage by building Lethality with that 190 AD than you would if you had only built the 190 AD.

Pika FoxOct 14, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=000100000000000000000000000100000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-14T17:49:45.814+0000)

You missed the rest of the math. I'll help you out by quoting myself for the second time in this thread. Just making sure no nefarious hiding of data is happening here.

Yes, because penetrating armor scales well. But again, armor is cheaper than lethality, and 1 lethality only negates 1 armor. It is cheaper to counter lethality than it is for lethality to counter armor. Lethality is good against low armor targets, its not good against high armor targets (lethality doesnt come with any multiplicative stats other than lethality itself, so youre not getting the AS you need to make lethality do anything to high AR targets)

All youve proven is that 190 AD + lethality > 190 AD, which, of course, its 2 things versus 1.

Zero ShingetsuOct 14, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000001000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-14T17:58:57.108+0000)

Yes, because penetrating armor scales well. But again, armor is cheaper than lethality, and 1 lethality only negates 1 armor.

Not only is that functionally untrue (tanks don't generally have the gold to burn that assassins do), but it's statistically untrue.

"Lethality has a gold value of 22.5 per point." "Attack damage has a gold value of 35 per point." "Armor has a gold value of 20 per point." "Health has a gold value of 2.67 per point."

item 3147 Lethality (21): 472.5 gold Attack Damage (55): 1,925 gold Total: 2,397.5 gold Item Cost: 2,900 gold (difference of 502.5)

item 3075 Armor (80): 1,600 gold Health (250): 667.5 gold Total: 2,267.5 gold Item Cost: 2,900 gold (difference of 632.5)

My point is, who valuates the bonus effects of each item? If they can't be given a concrete value, how can stats then be given a concrete value? Are they going purely on early build items that only build stats? In other words, you're applying valuation an athlete's contract primarily on his height and weight, starting with the least proficient player in the league.

You can't place hard value on something with intangible value, which is why my calculations were approximate based on percentile reduction of the actual hard stats involved in the calculation.

Pika FoxOct 14, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000010000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-14T18:13:57.685+0000)

Not only is that functionally untrue (tanks don't generally have the gold to burn that assassins do), but it's statistically untrue.

"Lethality has a gold value of 22.5 per point." "Attack damage has a gold value of 35 per point." "Armor has a gold value of 20 per point." "Health has a gold value of 2.67 per point."

Lethality (21): 472.5 gold Attack Damage (55): 1,925 gold Total: 2,397.5 gold Item Cost: 2,900 gold (difference of 502.5)

Armor (80): 1,600 gold Health (250): 667.5 gold Total: 2,267.5 gold Item Cost: 2,900 gold (difference of 632.5)

My point is, who valuates the bonus effects of each item? If they can't be given a concrete value, how can stats then be given a concrete value? Are they going purely on early build items that only build stats? In other words, you're applying valuation an athlete's contract primarily on his height and weight, starting with the least proficient player in the league.

You can't place hard value on something with intangible value, which is why my calculations were approximate based on percentile reduction of the actual hard stats involved in the calculation.

Stats are given a concrete value because there is a concrete item that gives that stat at a specific cost. Its not that complicated.

Pika FoxOct 14, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000010000000100000000000000000002,timestamp=2019-10-14T18:42:15.944+0000)

If that were true, full items would have a static cost that equates to the stats they provide and nothing more than this. Either the cost of items is arbitrary or it's rooted in mathematics. It cannot be both.

The only parts of them without a static cost are the unique effects inherently on the items. The stats are all defined costs. Ontop of this, you generally get MORE base stats than you paid for on completed items as a general rule of efficiency.

Pika FoxOct 14, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000010000000100000000000000000004,timestamp=2019-10-14T21:54:58.452+0000)

I'm gonna go ahead and "nah" this one.

I ran the numbers. The real simple comparison was right here in plain sight, elementary mathematics:

Cost: 350 gold Stats: +10 AD Effects: None Cost per Stat: 350 / 10 = 35 gold

Cost: 1,300 gold Stats: +40 AD Effects: None Cost per Stat: 1300 / 40 = 32.5 gold

Cost: 435 gold Stats: +20 AP Effects: None Cost per Stat: 435 / 20 = 21.75 gold

Cost: 1,250 gold Stats: +60 AP Effects: None Cost per Stat: 1250 / 60 = 20.83 gold

Right there your illusion is broken. These numbers don't align whatsoever. You could blame it on scaling, where gold becomes more plentiful later on so items cost more... Only items cost less per stat as you get into the bigger base items.

But here are some more in-depth numbers. Let's take a journey into university mathematics!

Cost: 450 (+350) gold Stats: +5 (+10) AD Effects: Grievous Wounds (t. 3) Cost per Stat:

Grievous Wounds: 450 / (t * [prphAct / pRvFact]) * (sRvFact / 6) = 386.29 gold ergo,

AD: (450 - [Grievous Wounds CpS]) / 5 = 12.74 gold

Look at how insanely out of whack this is right now, purely because healing is such a massive factor at the moment. Here's another of the few items that can, in fact, be quantified if you take an hour to dig into the data and formulate the calculations:

Cost: 2,600 (+1,100) gold Stats: +0 (+120) AP Effects: +40% AP (which we'll call "AP Delta") Cost per Stat:

AP: 0 gold

AP Delta: 2,600 gold

That doesn't seem quite right. So I did the math on how AP Delta should valuate, assuming the estimate of 27 million daily players is accurate:

([Max Level] * [prphAct / pRvFact] * [prvΔ / 27000000]) / 6 = 4,211.6 gold

Proof positive that the damage is overtuned, because no full item should cost over 4,000 gold, yet mathematics state that fairly, by your supposition of concrete value driving item costs, the 40% AP bonus alone should cost 4,212 gold. Do you see how how preposterous this all looks?

You really dont get it, do you?

The higher cost items are more efficient because you must sit on the gold longer to purchase an item. AD costs 35g per AD. Period. As stated in your example. BF sword gives more AD than cost because you must hold the gold.

This is common knowledge and not complicated. You have no credible argument you can make.

Zero ShingetsuOct 14, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000010000000100000000000000000005,timestamp=2019-10-14T22:27:23.756+0000)

You really dont get it, do you?

The higher cost items are more efficient because you must sit on the gold longer to purchase an item. AD costs 35g per AD. Period. As stated in your example. BF sword gives more AD than cost because you must hold the gold.

This is common knowledge and not complicated. You have no credible argument you can make.

Very well, you'd handwave the easy examples. What of the complex ones? I understand not everyone is versed in this level of mathematics, so I don't expect you to understand all the formulae, but what of the solutions? How do you explain that degree of value discrepancy?

Pika FoxOct 15, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000010000000100000000000000000006,timestamp=2019-10-14T22:56:50.283+0000)

Very well, you'd handwave the easy examples. What of the complex ones? I understand not everyone is versed in this level of mathematics, so I don't expect you to understand all the formulae, but what of the solutions? How do you explain that degree of value discrepancy?

What value discrepancy? The fact that completed items come with massive passive bonuses because thats literally the point of a completed item? Theres no discrepancy.

Zero ShingetsuOct 17, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000010000000100000000000000000007,timestamp=2019-10-15T01:14:20.429+0000)

What value discrepancy? The fact that completed items come with massive passive bonuses because thats literally the point of a completed item? Theres no discrepancy.

Sorry, this got buried when I posted another thread and got swarmed with replies.

This discrepancy:

Cost: 450 (+350) gold Stats: +5 (+10) AD Effects: Grievous Wounds (t. 3) Cost per Stat:

* Grievous Wounds: 450 / (t \* [prphAct / pRvFact]) \* (sRvFact / 6) = **386.29 gold** ergo,
* AD: (450 - [Grievous Wounds CpS]) / 5 = 12.74 gold

Cost: 2,600 (+1,100) gold Stats: +0 (+120) AP Effects: +40% AP (which we'll call "AP Delta") Cost per Stat:

AP: 0 gold

AP Delta: 2,600 gold

([Max Level] * [prphAct / pRvFact] * [prvΔ / 27000000]) / 6 = 4,211.6 gold

The bolded parts. Compare those to the cost of the item, and please elucidate as to why these value so highly, one of them higher than the item itself? What can this mean if not that the game itself is overtuned?

Pika FoxOct 17, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000010000000100000000000000000008,timestamp=2019-10-17T04:00:47.532+0000)

Sorry, this got buried when I posted another thread and got swarmed with replies.

This discrepancy:

The bolded parts. Compare those to the cost of the item, and please elucidate as to why these value so highly, one of them higher than the item itself? What can this mean if not that the game itself is overtuned?

It means completed items give bonus stats because theyre full, completed items. This isnt new, or rocket science. Its a defined powerspike in the game and intentional. Game design 101.

EedatOct 14, 20192 votes

Dude no you dont. Wtf even is this math?

If you take 100 physical damage without the lethality, you will actually only take 24 damage. If you took the same 100 damage with the lethality factored in you would take 29. Thats not 240% lmao

Pika FoxOct 14, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-14T14:31:59.019+0000)

Armor and MR don't negate. They reduce damage on a percentile basis, and they can be bypassed by simply outplaying the other team and hitting squishies first. Lethality literally negates a portion of another player's stat entirely, and the only way around it is to literally avoid the champion building Lethality and not engage at all. Which is the opposite of a tank's job.

Lethality doesnt do anything to tanks. It negates a small amount of armor, but their innate abilities more than make up for it alone, and thats not even getting into their massive HP pool.

If a tank is cowering to a lethality build, the tank is bad.

Chainman3Oct 14, 20191 votes

So you're not a fan of sorc shoes and morellos magc pen also void staff right?

I find it odd you didnt list these items item 3135 item 3020 item 3916

So lets assume you have it your way and we remove the armor pen. So ADC buys item 3031 item 3046 item 3094 Tank buys item 3143 item 3075 item 3110

Oh but that nullifies the adc's build and you said you dont like that so lets remove tank items from the game... oh we only have dmg items left then.

GlaucianeOct 14, 20191 votes

{quoted}

So you're not a fan of sorc shoes and morellos magc pen also void staff right?

I find it odd you didnt list these items

So lets assume you have it your way and we remove the armor pen. So ADC buys Tank buys

Oh but that nullifies the adc's build and you said you dont like that so lets remove tank items from the game... oh we only have dmg items left then.

Can you read at all? My whole point is about tradeoffs and easy buildpaths. None of the ap items you listed have easy paths, 850 gold is expansive. And they also HAVE TRADEOFF. If you early build voidstaff you'll loose cdr, but AD assassins items does not imply it.

The thigh guyOct 14, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Cuz AD assassins are pretty much locked one build path that being / and Duskblade is a MUST HAVE on almost any champ that builds lethality. i think there should be more lethality item diversity

Wow. Welcome to adc’s Life since the game started. Want a cookie?

Barso55Oct 14, 20194 votes

this is not true. lethality is ineffective against high armor.

Assuming you are a tank since you are building thormail - lets say you have 70 base armor when you get the item. The thornmail gives you 80 bonus armor, so thats 150 total armor from just that item.

The current formula, I believe, from https://lolmath.net/articles/league_of_legends_formulas.html, is Armor/100+armor as damage reduction.

So, in this case, it would be 150/250 = 60% damage reduction.

Duskblade would make it = 129/100+129 = 56% damage reduction.

So, your not losing 26% of the benefit but just 4%.

The lethality builder is being penalized for your armor building by just having 55 AD and the damage passive against you. Your armor is also reducing his 55 AD worth of damage significantly.

You are also forgetting the 250 health you get from thornmail which makes your total armor even more effective.

I'd say its effective enough. But, there are some broken champs that do way too much damage anyway as part of their kits and unless you have multiple tank items and some damage reduction in your kit, they can still 1 shot you at even gold. That has more to do with champion design than items.

Also, lethality is completely countered by one amazing and cheap item - seekers armguard. The duskblade at 2900 gold negates 21 armor, and a fully stacked armguard for 1100 gold gives you 45 armor and 35 AP. You are entirely negating the 21 armor pen and having an additional 24 armor to deal with base damages/ad/55 ad from the item for just 1100 gold.

Id argue it is lethality that is completely countered by cheap armor items, not the other way around.

This is why, if I see even a single lethality item on a snowballing enemy champ, or the enemy Miss fortune building lethality, even if I am playing some squishy champ or am the opposing ADC, I pick up a cloth armor maybe even a chain vest if i can afford to spend the gold on it, completely negating all her lethality. My IE + zeal + chain vest = 5200 gold gives me 70 AD, 40% crit chance, the crit passive, 5% MS and 15% AS and the enemy MF has spent 2900x2 = 5800 which is 600 gold more than me, but all she has is 110 AD which, after negating 18+21 = 39 of my chain vest, is pretty much all she has to fight me with. My chain vest will eventually become a GA too, but her lethality will never affect me.

Also, TBC armor pen is a stacking passive after applying damage. Its not efficient on burst AD assassins, most get it for the survivability and to duel other tanks/bruisers than for burst.

Its good on lee, for example, who Q you (4% armor shred) q again - 8% armor shred total, E, 12% armor shred all within a few seconds. Big advantage is it doesnt affect only his damage like lethality does, all AD damage from any source on the target is increased. But, in itself, phage passive isn't so useful on burst assassins, especially if they have already built youmus, 20% cdr is also not relevant on them during that particular kill attempt, and by the time they shred any really meaningful amount of armor on low armor targets, they are done with their rotation and need to get out or face dying themselves. for instance, caitlin, at 88 armor without GA level 18, is reducing 88/188 % physical damage = 46% physical damage. Lets say the enemy zed gets 2 shurikens, one auto, and two slashes on cait before exiting the kill attempt. he starts with R onto cait, w, e, q, then R to exit. The W is double, 8% armor shred, but since they happen simultaneously they shred 8% armor right away but havent shredded any armor before, so next the 2 shurikens receive the 8% damage reduction and add another 8% armor shred = 16%. The R pop basically gets to do just 4% more damage despite 4 stacks of cleaver armor shred, and the two shurikens before it gain even less bonus damage from the 2 stacks of armour shred.

Its Arpen to be effective against tanks/juggernaughts and lethality against squishies. So, the tradeoff of building lethality is doing very little damage to tanks (and can be entirely negated by marksman core item - GA, or mage core item, zhonyas). The tradeoff to % pen and armor shred like TBC is doing little to no extra damage to squishies.

All in all, lethality is heavily countered by anyone that matters. Its actually most effective against bruisers that build only offensive health/damage items like Irelia and renekton, or against ADCs (who do have their sp to peel and arnt inherently laning against the assassin) until they get their GA when all the lethality gets completely negated.

Mid can rush seekers after first back and negate even 2 of your lethality items without upgrading to zhonya.

GlaucianeOct 14, 20192 votes

I believe jungle modifications created this situations. Overbuffed mobs created a need for non-area dmg ad junglers to have high cdrs. Just revert the stupid endless krugs and chickens and remove cdr from lethality items, it just killed jungle diversity.

Dasdi96Oct 14, 20192 votes

It's tradeoff is your damage to tanks is lower than if you spent money building raw ad and %pen.

BLIGHTBRINGEROct 14, 20191 votes

The trade off is that Lethality does well Early to somewhat Mid Game, during Late Game when ADC's have Guardian Angel + Growing Armor per level (you will have about roughly 100+ Armor) which is more than what all 3 Lethality Items together can ignore.

If you find it that you're getting one shot still it's mostly because they probably have Black Cleaver which reduces your total Armor by 24% at 6 stacks and Lord's Dominiks Regards which penetrates 35% of your total Armor. These two things and the fact that most AD Assassins have really high scallings on abilities.

AP Assassins are a bit more busted if you ask me, due to the state of Deathcap increasing total AP by 40% and Voidstaff being able to Penetrate 40% of your total MR. And there is no MR Growth per level in the game so by default they will deal more damage than AD Assassin's will.

Titanium70Oct 14, 20191 votes

Except AP Assassins don't build Deathcap/Void in the first place...

They build their what ever core + boots, morello + Zhonyas/Banshee.

And due to their CD capped DMG a somewhat even gold an AP-Assassin can pretty much Quit the game once his opponents get Maw while some AD-Assassin just tend to actually need to hit their entire combo instead of half of it in similar situations...

BLIGHTBRINGEROct 14, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Except AP Assassins don't build Deathcap/Void in the first place...

They build their what ever core + boots, morello + Zhonyas/Banshee.

And due to their CD capped DMG a somewhat even gold an AP-Assassin can pretty much Quit the game once his opponents get Maw while some AD-Assassin just tend to actually need to hit their entire combo instead of half of it in similar situations...

You're telling me Evelynn, Katarina and Leblanc don't build Deathcap and Voidstaff?

I don't think we live in the same world.

Pika FoxOct 14, 20191 votes

The tradeoff is youre forced into a dead build late game. You lack defensive options for the first 3 buys, no AS options to multiply the damage and any potential lifesteal buys,and no crit. Come late game, innate stats and supports just innately remove any advantage your build had earlier. And you need to build more than 1 lethality item, as it scales with itself.

GlaucianeOct 14, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-10-14T16:16:08.960+0000)

The tradeoff is youre forced into a dead build late game. You lack defensive options for the first 3 buys, no AS options to multiply the damage and any potential lifesteal buys,and no crit. Come late game, innate stats and supports just innately remove any advantage your build had earlier. And you need to build more than 1 lethality item, as it scales with itself.

The lack of tradeoff is you being able to build more damage AND full CDR AND more HP in your core 3 builds. No other buildpath in the game allows that.

Pika FoxOct 14, 20191 votes

{quoted}

The lack of tradeoff is you being able to build more damage AND full CDR AND more HP in your core 3 builds. No other buildpath in the game allows that.

Lethality has no HP. You get average damage, 30% CDR because youre an AD mage and thats really it, other than the individual items utility.

You get no hp, no lifesteal, no crit, no as, no inherent defensive stats outside actives. You have the same problems a burst mage has; youre a one trick pony, and that one trick becomes less useful as the game goes on.

GlaucianeOct 14, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2019-10-14T16:22:11.007+0000)

Lethality has no HP. You get average damage, 30% CDR because youre an AD mage and thats really it, other than the individual items utility.

You get no hp, no lifesteal, no crit, no as, no inherent defensive stats outside actives. You have the same problems a burst mage has; youre a one trick pony, and that one trick becomes less useful as the game goes on.

item 3071 gives you HP. AND 20% CDR. 20% + 10% + 10% = 40%. You get 40% AND hp in the core build. Can you count?

Pika FoxOct 14, 20192 votes

{quoted}

gives you HP. AND 20% CDR. 20% + 10% + 10% = 40%. You get 40% AND hp in the core build. Can you count?

Cleaver isnt a lethality item, and youd NEVER build cleaver with lethality. Lethality was made BECAUSE cleaver is such a garbage item for AD assassins, as it doesnt work for burst.

Your "core build" is bad and counter productive, making you fall off even faster.

Zero ShingetsuOct 14, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=00060000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-14T16:35:23.993+0000)

Cleaver isnt a lethality item, and youd NEVER build cleaver with lethality. Lethality was made BECAUSE cleaver is such a garbage item for AD assassins, as it doesnt work for burst.

Your "core build" is bad and counter productive, making you fall off even faster.

AD assassins that stay in the fight long enough to launch multiple basic attacks:

Talon
Kayn
Nocturne
Rengar
Zed
AD Shaco

AD assassins:

Kayn
Kha'Zix
Nocturne
Pyke
Qiyana
Rengar
AD Shaco
Talon
Zed

That's 67% of all AD assassins that get use out of Black Cleaver.

Pika FoxOct 14, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=000600000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-14T16:45:31.683+0000)

AD assassins that stay in the fight long enough to launch multiple basic attacks:

Talon

Kayn

Nocturne

Rengar

Zed

AD Shaco

AD assassins:

Kayn

Kha'Zix

Nocturne

Pyke

Qiyana

Rengar

AD Shaco

Talon

Zed

That's 67% of all AD assassins that get use out of Black Cleaver.

Not really. Cleaver is back loaded, burst is front loaded. Unless you want to sit there holding your abilities while waiting for cleaver to stack, youre wasting gold. Assassins go in and get out asap. Cleaver requires you to stay in for extended periods to make use of its stacking.

Zero ShingetsuOct 14, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=0006000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-14T16:48:56.019+0000)

Not really. Cleaver is back loaded, burst is front loaded. Unless you want to sit there holding your abilities while waiting for cleaver to stack, youre wasting gold. Assassins go in and get out asap. Cleaver requires you to stay in for extended periods to make use of its stacking.

Talon stays in long enough to use his abilities. If he's fighting a tank with no damage, he has no reason to jump out early, so he'll want to sit and grind. But alright, let's give him the benefit of the doubt and take him off the list.

Rhaast Kayn stays in. That's why he goes Rhaast.

Have you ever seen a Nocturne that doesn't build attack speed?

Rengar thrives primarily on basic attacks from bush. Assuming you keep him away from bushes, he might not go all in on you. But generally, he's not going in very hard unless he's by bushes anyway.

Zed hangs around to auto through his ult for as long as possible. The more attacks he gets off with Black Cleaver, the more damage his ult does. It makes sense for Zed.

AD Shaco sends his clone in hard to do all the AD possible, and often stays in with it, building attack speed for maximum mileage.

Why rely on burst when you can have burst to initiate and Cleaver autos to carry you through the fight?

Pika FoxOct 14, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=00060000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-14T17:05:40.577+0000)

Talon stays in long enough to use his abilities. If he's fighting a tank with no damage, he has no reason to jump out early, so he'll want to sit and grind. But alright, let's give him the benefit of the doubt and take him off the list.

Rhaast Kayn stays in. That's why he goes Rhaast.

Have you ever seen a Nocturne that doesn't build attack speed?

Rengar thrives primarily on basic attacks from bush. Assuming you keep him away from bushes, he might not go all in on you. But generally, he's not going in very hard unless he's by bushes anyway.

Zed hangs around to auto through his ult for as long as possible. The more attacks he gets off with Black Cleaver, the more damage his ult does. It makes sense for Zed.

AD Shaco sends his clone in hard to do all the AD possible, and often stays in with it, building attack speed for maximum mileage.

Why rely on burst when you can have burst to initiate and Cleaver autos to carry you through the fight?

A tank with no damage items WILL 100-0 an assassin with no defensive items through base damage alone. Not to mention hold them still for 5 seconds or more through CC alone. Talon has every reason to get out asap, because tanks dont deal 0 damage and tanks will take away the only defense assassins have; Mobility. Same with literally everyone else you mentioned. Literally all of them will die trying to get cleaver to be worth the gold invested.

It is ALWAYS a bad purchase UNLESS youre so far behind and unable to survive that you physically need it to do anything, in which case youre going for a suboptimal build just to be relevant.

Hell, you should NEVER be going in on the tank REGARDLESS. You dont need the AR shred on squishy targets, and you will never have enough to deal with a tankier target regardless. Cleaver is never useful for you.

Zero ShingetsuOct 14, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=000600000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-14T17:09:30.564+0000)

Hell, you should NEVER be going in on the tank REGARDLESS.

You've hit the nail on the head. We're in a meta where assassins go in on tanks and do it successfully more often than not. This should never happen. They should never go in on the tank at all.

Pika FoxOct 14, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=0006000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-14T17:16:21.768+0000)

You've hit the nail on the head. We're in a meta where assassins go in on tanks and do it successfully more often than not. This should never happen. They should never go in on the tank at all.

? What game do you play where they go onto tanks successfully? Because that is not a thing that ever happens unless the tank is out of position and its a 2v1 or they have low HP.

Zero ShingetsuOct 14, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=00060000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-14T17:21:24.868+0000)

? What game do you play where they go onto tanks successfully? Because that is not a thing that ever happens unless the tank is out of position and its a 2v1 or they have low HP.

I play the tank game. I'm one of the few people who still try to pure tank. I die for my team 5-15 times a game. How often do you sacrifice for your team? Far as OP.GG knows, you play exclusively against bots and only once as anything resembling a tank, who you built for pure damage. I don't mean to be rude, but as far as my research can gather, the last time you've experienced the tank role for a meaningful span was in season 6. The advent of the Tank Meta. Why would I expect you to know the trials of playing a tank against this meta's assassins?

Pika FoxOct 14, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=000600000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-14T17:32:08.541+0000)

I play the tank game. I'm one of the few people who still try to pure tank. I die for my team 5-15 times a game. How often do you sacrifice for your team? Far as OP.GG knows, you play exclusively against bots and only once as anything resembling a tank, who you built for pure damage. I don't mean to be rude, but as far as my research can gather, the last time you've experienced the tank role for a meaningful span was in season 6. The advent of the Tank Meta. Why would I expect you to know the trials of playing a tank against this meta's assassins?

Because im a leona main, who is a tank. Yeah, i like playing other shit too. Doesnt mean i dont know how to tank. If youre having problems with assassins.... thats on you. Thats YOUR fault. Assassins physically cannot do anything to a tank unless theyre out of position and give the assassin all the time in the world to kill them. Hell, even as a squishy i rarely have problems with assassins, because i still understand my role as the support and carry exhaust when needed into assassins. Is REALLY not that hard or complicated to deal with them. Assassin goes in, either displace them, reduce their damage or throw your defensive CDs on their target, and you win.

Zero ShingetsuOct 14, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=0006000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-14T17:40:11.177+0000)

Because im a leona main, who is a tank. Yeah, i like playing other shit too. Doesnt mean i dont know how to tank. If youre having problems with assassins.... thats on you. Thats YOUR fault. Assassins physically cannot do anything to a tank unless theyre out of position and give the assassin all the time in the world to kill them. Hell, even as a squishy i rarely have problems with assassins, because i still understand my role as the support and carry exhaust when needed into assassins. Is REALLY not that hard or complicated to deal with them. Assassin goes in, either displace them, reduce their damage or throw your defensive CDs on their target, and you win.

If you've played Leona since season 6 (solid Leona that year, by the way, impressive work), OP.GG isn't picking it up. It has Swain, Pantehon, Yuumi, Xayah, Rakan, Ezreal, Ziggs, Neeko, Morgana, Ryze, Caitlyn, and Ashe as your top picks this year, with your first tank being #13, Nautilus, at two games. Leona's nowhere on the list.

Look. You're strawmanning again. Or listing off-course, at best. I never said assassins are invincinble. I never said I didn't know how to deal with them. I never said I can't bring an assassin down. I merely said that Lethality items are poorly balanced, giving them an unfair advantage. I said that Lethality is the one stat in the game that actively strips another stat, and that's problematic. It would be like being able to build a stat that reduces the enemy's ability power when they cast near you.

"That's MR genius." No, it's not MR, MR is a percentile reduction and I just did the difference in math on all that. Lethality is unfair. Is it broken? No. Is it unbeatable? No. Is it going to destroy the game? No. But putting cork in your bat isn't broken either. Just because I couldn't hit a major league home run with a corked bat doesn't mean it doesn't provide an unfair advantage.