A short complaint on summoner spells

yuuum chan·May 2, 2019·1 votes·1,641 views

Summoners, as they exist right now, feel rather lazy to me. For the most part, they're some sort of flat boost or debuff. I just pure flat, damage, is just pure, flat movespeed, and is just pure, flat health. These are all, by their very nature, rather simple to use, and does not require much thought at all. Just ask yourself if you need some more dmg, some more movespeed, or some more health, respectively. On the reverse, they feel really shitty to play against, becaue there's little to no counterplay. How do you outplay a person just popping a huge shield on you, or just getting a free 210 true damage from a single, targeted spell? You can't, and often it just becomes a matter of 'you can't win cus I have a massive stat advantage over you', which feels shitty.

and are currently the two most well-designed summoners in the game, because they both require intelligence to use properly. Just flashing close to somebody won't do you much good in a fight, unless all you need is an auto-attack or two. Generally speaking, making use of flash requires great understanding and good gameplay. You need to dodge something, or you need to use it for a massive engage, or some other big play, which is what summoners should be used for: BIg, impressive, smart plays.

Teleport exists on a similiar spectrum. Teleport won't help you win a fight, it requires forethought to actually use properly. In lane, you need to understand how wave-management works properly to use it, you need to understand map-pressure, splitpushing, and so many other factors, which is what makes it so skill intensive.

In conclusion, Riot should try and innovate more with summoner spells, make them more exciting. There is so much room to explore there, beyond just pure stats.

8 Comments

Mitte BitteMay 2, 20192 votes

You should make an example of what you wanted from summoner spells, cause I dont see what you are going for. "it just becomes a matter of 'you can't win cus I have a massive stat advantage over you', which feels shitty" So you dont want stats from summoners? Ok. "making use of flash requires great understanding and good gameplay. You need to dodge something" What about a spellshield summoner? That would be the exact same here, just that you cant use it offensively. But no wait, spellshield is more like barrier, so thats no good. A summoner that reveals an enemies position? Ah right Clairvoyance, why did they remove that again?... summoner 1 is bad too, right? summoner 32 for the rift? Might as well give everyone another flash. I honestly cant think of much of a non stat summoner that isnt extremely similar to flash. Revive? Clarity?

The point is: "it just becomes a matter of 'you can't win cus I have a massive stat advantage over you', which feels shitty" This is just not true. This is true for flash, and only flash. Sure, you can lose 1v1s because of other summs but its quite rare, compared to Flash. Only Exhaust tends to play a role in 1v1s, and you didnt even mention that one. Instead, people FREQUENTLY dont get kills because enemies flash out of skillshots, people also secure kills ALL THE TIME using flash, people that ran out of position like idiots can safe themselves from their biggest mistake all game with flash. You dont need much more "intelligence" for flash and neither for tp. They only allow for those 200 IQ plays more than other summs, and how often do you see a "200 IQ Brainblast" play that could only happen because of flash? In contrast: How often do you see someone survive a gank because of flash?... Flash actually allows you to play less smart, not the other way round. Even for offensive usage: Forgot to put Ignite on the enemy while doing your Assassin combo? Flash+Ignite, to show off your mega brain. You dont need to land Morg Q if you can flash right in the enemies face. You dont need to set up the perfect baron bait bush camp if you can just flash on people in lane. And its the same with tp. Just got sent to base from a gank and about to lose two and a half waves of cs to the turret? Not happening. Just took a terrible trade in lane and your opponent has started to freeze the wave? No problem. Making the perfect tp into baron pit for the perfect late game engage? When half the games end in 25 minutes? Yeah right... "Just flashing close to somebody won't do you much good in a fight, [...] you need to use it for a massive engage" A Gnar Flash+R on 5 people sure looks "flashy", but imagine he could do that without flashing, by putting a vision ward in a nearby brush and flanking. Why would that be less "big, impressive, smart"?

yuuum chanMay 2, 20191 votes

Perhaps I should've been more clear in my argument concerning TP and flash. While they can certaintly be used for basic bitch stuff, they allow for more skill expression than other summoners. Rather than complaining about how you can't outplay a stat boost, I agree I probably should've given an example of how a good player has more room to make plays with Flash than with ignite, if that makes sense. There is something about timing sure, but the difference between spells like flash and ignite is that there will be a great distinction between how really good players use them. Basic bitch players might just use it to escape a gank toward his tower. An amazing player might use it to dodge the Jarvan flag and drag, then kill his lane opponent and escape. That's a pretty simple exampel, admittedly, but it goes to show what I like so much about it.

The same principle goes for teleport, because while certain players just use it cus they took a bad trade, and want to undo that, a great player might recognize that taking said bad trade is actually a good idea, because even though u lost it, u can TP back and now u have lane pressure. But then again, is that worth it, or do you want to play safe, and save it for a potential dragon play? Recognizing all those possibilities take skill, and will always yield better results than some bronzie using it to get extra farm.

I didn't give examples cus I didn't want it to be long, cus this forum seems to hate posts that exceed like 200 words, but you gave a great one. I think changing Barrier to a spell-shield would be a great idea. Because while there is some merit to the idea that you have to use barrier preemptively to block damage, the duration is long enough that you can use it and still gain value even after taking the brunt of the damage. Changing it to be a spell-shield will demand perfect timing, which takes a lot more skill. It's a bit of a stat boost, sure, but it's a more interesting. version of it. Also, it does become more skill intensive in the sense that u have to be more selective. For example, what is more important, blocking a CC-spell, or a damage spell? The damage shield doesn't help vs cc, so the choice is clear, but with a spell shield, not so much. Another idea is that you can't just use it for bonus health.

Another example I would like is to change ghost from being a long duration move speed to give more speed over a shorter duration, like max 3, maybe 4 seconds, so that it can't be used to just run people down, but you can instead use the more intense movement speed kind of like a flash, to dodge skill shots, or very quickly reposition in a fight. Ofc people can still use as sort of a secondary, worse flash to just run from ganks, but again, great players will be able to make maximum use out of it.

Mitte BitteMay 2, 20191 votes

Even in LCS, you can see players flashing too late. Instead of flashing away from that red buff Kindred right away, they take lots of damage, flash late, and still die because the enemies flash after them for the last AA. Its a matter of calculation, "can I live without flashing?", but its actually the same with barrier: You get ganked, you see the enemy using their combo and you know exactly: "If I barrier, now, I might waste it cause I might survive without using it. But If I dont, I might die cause after their combo, all I can block is like one autohit and one ignite tick, and that might be too little to not die afterwards to another AA+ignite tick". Youre actually trying to use my example against me. That amazing player of yours is not amazing because he flashed, but because he warded, saw the gank coming (or had insane reaction speed) and knew he could turn that gank around with proper reaction.

TP is extremely dependent on what other people do. Its not in your hand often, like: your jungler could be around when you go b, and stop the wave from crashing into your turret, instead setting up a freeze for you. If your botlane places a proper ward or gets ganked in the perfect way is not in your hand. Youre the idiot if you didnt tp for that cannon creep in lane, if you dont use it in the next 5 minutes.

Ghosts bonus MMS is greatly increasing over its duration. To properly use it, you need to use it before you actually need it. This often is way harder than using flash...

I wouldnt be happy about a spellshield summoner at all. It would be op vs some champs and useless vs others. Thats the upside of simple summs like Barrier, theyre effective against all champs, not just some. And I would still wanna hear about an actual new summoner that you had in mind when you wrote "There is so much room to explore there, beyond just pure stats".

In short: My points is, like with runes reforged, I think that it was much better with the old runes. Nowadays champions are so dependent on keystones like Conqueror, it makes for a balance nightmare, and entire matchups can be the decided by keystones alone, and Id rather not have similar things with summs.

yuuum chanMay 2, 20191 votes

I'm willing to concede that barrier might not have been the best example, and that healing probably would've been a better example of what I'm trying to say. That aside...

Firstly, adaption is a part of gameplay. If you're ridging in your thinking that you're only going to tp bot to fight for dragon, then you're no smarter then the guy who only uses tp to get an extra wave of minions. It's power is in how many uses it can have, and in 5 minutes, you're bound to get at least one opportunity to use it. If not, well, that's a risk you're willing to take. Knowing when to take risks is also a part of gameplay. Even though you're always a bit dependant on other people's play, you can still try and predict how the game is going to go through all the factors available. If the entire top side jungle is cleared on your side, and bot-lane is pushed up and winning, it's a safe bet that at least something is going to happen, whether a fight for dragon, or a opponents gank on bot-lane. Sure, maybe your jungler goes afk for 5 minutes, and maybe their jungler just farms and does nothing, but that would probably be the exception.

That could certaintly by an aspect of ghost, but still, it being a more intensive burst of movespeed is more interesting than just running really fast for a at people. Ofc you'd have to balance it out, and maybe adding some wind-up to it is still a good solution even after this fix.

And, a spell-shield would probably be useful against most teams and/or champions. The only exceptions I can think of are like pure auto-attack champions in the late game, like Master yi, or Tryndamere. But even then, you can block a Tryndas mocking shout. You can block a Vayne's condemn. Without going through each champion, I would guess that like 90%, 95% of champions probably have something worth spellblocking.

But, beyond that, even if that wasn't the case... Isn't that what Cleanse is? Niche pick only useful against a handful of champions? A spellshield would just be a better, more interesting Cleanse, if you ask me.

As for new suggestions, I mean, I'm not a fucking designer. I just wanted to point out a problem, and some examples of what I think could be done, but I'm not so invested that I will sit down and design several new summoners, and think about how each one will theoretically play out, and all the different interactions. There are people who are literally getting paid to do that, and I'm sure as fuck not getting paid to do that.

Mitte BitteMay 2, 20191 votes

True, but its the same with Heal as long as your opponent brings Grievous Wounds...

No. Or yes. When Im top, I frequently see a potential tp play, where I however know exactly: If I tp somewhere else on the map right now, my lane opponent is gonna get 3 waves of cs that I will miss, plus like 2 turret plates, so unless I get a triple kill plus Infernal, I will be at a disadvantage when I come back in lane. Also my team might not need me. Thatd suck. It might also go completely wrong and we could lose double. In the end, with my tp Im trying to get my teammates an advantage while putting myself at a disadvantage. I dont like doing that. I think 2 waves of cs for me + no extra gold for my lane opponent is usually worth more than 2 kills for the Lee and a turret plating for the autofilled adc (and this is almost the best case scenario). Does that make me an idiot? I actually tried playing without tp, seeing how I often didnt need it, but later on I do need it if I want to push bot while baron is up. Does that make me smart?

True cleanse is just that: Niche pick only useful against a handful of champions. "A spellshield would just be a better, more interesting Cleanse, if you ask me." I dont see how a Spellshield is a good example for you. Its literally Barrier + Cleanse, both slightly altered. If you like that okay, but I think it would completely ruin some champions in the 1v1, much worse than Cleanse...

I am extremely disappointed, and my day is ruined.

General MattyMay 2, 20191 votes

I roll down to comments and all i see is walls of text. Can we get a TLDR plez

yuuum chanMay 2, 20191 votes

I mean, no, that doesn't make you stupid, that's actually a very smart thought process, and why I think Tp is a good summoner because that's a consideration you have to make. Sometimes, your lane is simply not in a good spot to TP, but sometimes, TP'ing to lane is completely useless cus you had the chance to push up, and it's crashing into your tower just as you're getting back anyways. That's what I mean by being adaptable, and being able to recognize how altering gameplay changes the uses of TP is what makes it so skillfull. It might seem basic to you, but it's definitely a skill expression, if not a very flashy one.

The reason I said a spellshield would be a more interesting cleanse is that one, it's preemtive, not reactive, and 2, it's useful against more champions. It's useful against pretty much all the cc moves cleanse worked against, as well as knock-ups as well as spells such as Zed's ultimate.

Are there champions that get completely fucked over by a spellshield? Sure. But champions like lux already get fucked over by Cleanse anyways, and currently ghost is just broken in a 1v1 setting if you have any sort of advantage over your opponent at all, and ignite completely cucks champions like Mundo or Warwick, so if you want to complain about that, I think you can, but it wouldn't be anything new with my suggestions.