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Riot Devs: Attempt to Get Yasuo Unpermabanned Failed, Now Even More Banned

AtreiNero··22 votes·1,870 views

Every time I have read the announcement over the 10 ban system, a theme is common, the permaban status of Yasuo. That single issue alone seems to have occupied Riot's thinking during this whole process.

I spent a few hours looking through a lot of comment threads and looking at the Red Tracker, and at the comments made on both the Nexus and Announcement treads for the 10 ban system, most of them fall far short of any explanation or indication that anyone at Riot was going to allow community feedback or listen to it before implementing the 10 ban system. In fact, I only found I Am The IRS, and Draggles even responding to anything and trying to explain. Both of them said that wasted bans are a bad thing, but then offered no explanation as to why they were still allowed except for reduction or elimination of permabans to allow people to play those champs. This is not only a horrible decision, for obvious reasons I hope, but also a horrible gameplay decision as it proves there was no feedback or Q&A on this "feature".

Again there are multiple reasons why Yasuo is still banned at the rate he is but it seems that people only focus on win rates. I'll list my reasons, feel free to disagree or like them at your leisure.

  1. He's obnoxious to play against. If you don't know exactly what you are doing, then he will destroy you in lane.
  2. No skill champ. With his kit, it is extremely forgiving unless you make a serious mistake. Even then, he still might be able to get out. His kit is just too forgiving to players and needs to be reworked. He seems like the high risk, high reward type, but the "risk" seems to have been forgotten about at some point.
  3. With two items, he can destroy almost anyone in a 1v1. Just under 15 minutes into the game, he can again destroy just about anyone with his kit. That is a problem since power spikes happen, but he hits his spike and never falls off.
  4. He's a hypercarry. However, unlike other hypercarries, which have either weak mid or early games, he has a strong early, mid, and late game. He literally has no weakness in any phase of the game unless the player is beyond stupid. For lack of any better term.
  5. Even if he is behind, as long as he stays up with CS and doesn't feed anyone, he can still destroy late game with little chance to stop him. Again with the hypercarry thing. But other hypercarries like Jinx, Kat, Vayne, Trist, Fizz, Lee all still have weaknesses that can be exploited. Yasuo really doesn't have one unless your team has chaining stuns, and aren't getting ripped apart by the rest of his team.

It seems that all of the discussion surrounded getting Yasuo into play, at the expense of literally everything else including feedback from the community. I know full well it is hard to stop late game hypercarries, but they can still be stopped. Yasuo has that uncanny ability, again given to him by his forgiving kit, to be able to go into those high risk situations, and if it goes wrong, get out. Yes a good anything I listed above is hard to play against, but still they can be stopped.

The fact that again this sole reason to get champs that have a high ban rate into play seemed to be the central focus of the new ban system shows flawed thinking. If they are banned this much, then maybe there needs to be a look at why. Or in the case of Yasuo, just start reading the Gameplay forum, type "Yasuo" into the search bar, and start reading. Bring come coffee. The community, from everything I've read, seems to be dead set, wholly against this new system, but Riot just again forces it down our throats in the name of getting champs into play.

Riot, since this doesn't seem to be obvious, I will say it. Some champs will always have bans, or permabans attached to them for one reason or another. There are champs that are banned for an entire season because of how they play and the like. You can't get around this, but Yasuo has carried his high ban rate for a while now. If that isn't an indication that he needs to be looked at, then I don't know what is.

Honestly, this isn't about fairness and allowing everyone a ban, it is about making champs playable again in ranked, when no one wants to deal with them. Again hint hint, something is wrong there if that is the case.

86 Comments

DunkinNoobs10 votes

Banning Yasuo is a meme at this point, and you can't kill a meme; you can only hope it dies out on its own.

Hexs Fortune6 votes

{quoted}

Banning Yasuo is a meme at this point, and you can't kill a meme; you can only hope it dies out on its own.

https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder167/250x250/75997167/black-guy-logical-yasuo-cant-ult-you-if-he-was-banned.jpg

https://media.makeameme.org/created/im-banning-and.jpg

I can confirm meme status

GULAG 4 U3 votes

His entire post is full of nonsense either way.

'Yasuo is safe'. Okay, the champion that is in the top 3 death rates for mid and top is forgiving.

Sure, I don't smell nor see the bullshit.

DunkinNoobs3 votes

Yasuo is safe, but literally everyone who plays him is bad and dies a bunch anyway. /s

abca987 votes

My problems with Yasuo:

  1. Constant q harass.

  2. Wall. It gives too much utility for a team to be in a skirmisher's kit. Give him some defensive steroid or spellshield or whatever.

3)My teammates.

Yaśuo Main1 votes

Give him some defensive steroid or spellshield or whatever.

defensive steroid or spellshield or whatever.

spellshield or whatever.

spellshield

sooo

  1. flow shield

  2. wind wall

  3. possible defensive steroid or spell shield

Too much defense for a skirmisher

abca986 votes

[{quoted}](name=Yaśuo Main,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E8Pi3iwB,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-06-01T21:10:07.233+0000)

sooo

  1. flow shield

  2. wind wall

  3. possible defensive steroid or spell shield

Too much defense for a skirmisher

Do I really need to explain that I'm talking about removing the wall in favour of something that protects himself rather than his entire team?

Yaśuo Main2 votes

Oh sorry I thought removing the wall was a joke lol. You'd turn him into a skirmisher Melee ADC version of Darius.

Hella Kaiser2 votes

it actually sounds good

An Enemy Sutando4 votes

Windwall doesn't necessary need to be removed. I agree that it should be something reactionary that only guards Yasuo, but the concept is fine. I have some proposed changed, actually. (DISCLAIMER: The proposed changes contain compensation buffs. If you're allergic to the very idea of Yasuo being viable, I highly suggest you stop reading this comment right here.)

W - Windwall: Duration lowered from 3.75 seconds to 2 seconds. Removed: Ability size no longer scales with level Cooldown reduced from 26 / 24 / 22 / 20 / 18 to 22 / 20 / 18 / 16 / 14

Spicy Rice1 votes

You see, this is the nerf the r/yasuomain community have been agreeing upon for a long time

An Enemy Sutando1 votes

I'm not a Yasuo main by any stretch of the word, nor do I play him regularly. Hence why I don't visit the subbreddit.

But if that is so, great. Means I struck a balance with the change without making Yasuo unplayable and while putting down a significant change at the same time.

GULAG 4 U7 votes

Okay let's address your points. They are mostly composed of 'alternative facts' either way.

  1. He's obnoxious to play against. If you don't know exactly what you are doing, then he will destroy you in lane.

Literally every single fucking champion ever. Aatrox to Zyra, they all are subject to this rule.

  1. No skill champ. With his kit, it is extremely forgiving unless you make a serious mistake. Even then, he still might be able to get out. His kit is just too forgiving to players and needs to be reworked. He seems like the high risk, high reward type, but the "risk" seems to have been forgotten about at some point.

"Forgiving kit" My. Fucking. Fat. ASS. You're fucking telling me the champion that is in the top 3 death rates for top & mid is forgiving? Do you even fucking fact check?

  1. With two items, he can destroy almost anyone in a 1v1. Just under 15 minutes into the game, he can again destroy just about anyone with his kit. That is a problem since power spikes happen, but he hits his spike and never falls off.

No he doesn't. He only destroys specific classes (Tanks, supports and ADCs). He gets dumpstered by almost all other classes excluding certain burst mages such as lux.

  1. He's a hypercarry. However, unlike other hypercarries, which have either weak mid or early games, he has a strong early, mid, and late game. He literally has no weakness in any phase of the game unless the player is beyond stupid. For lack of any better term.

Yasuo's early game is only good level 1-2. After that he gets dumpstered in most matchups. His midgame isn't good, he typically gets instantly killed in skirmishes that happen there. His lategame is. It's not true that none of his phases are bad. Your bias is obvious.

  1. Even if he is behind, as long as he stays up with CS and doesn't feed anyone, he can still destroy late game with little chance to stop him. Again with the hypercarry thing. But other hypercarries like Jinx, Kat, Vayne, Trist, Fizz, Lee all still have weaknesses that can be exploited. Yasuo really doesn't have one unless your team has chaining stuns, and aren't getting ripped apart by the rest of his team.

You state Lee sin is a hypercarry, what the fucking name of hell? His winrates drop solidly and in a linear fashion the longer the game goes, what the fuck? "Even if he is behind, as long as he stays up with CS and doesn't feed anyone, he can still destroy late game with little chance to stop him" That is literally every single fucking champion that has a lategame. It's not exclusive to Yasuo. This is a bullshit argument because any champion that has a relevant lategame can pull this off.

"But other hypercarries like Jinx, Kat, Vayne, Trist, Fizz, Lee all still have weaknesses that can be exploited. Yasuo really doesn't have one unless your team has chaining stuns, and aren't getting ripped apart by the rest of his team."

Yasuo doesn't need chain CC. One CC without QSS is enough to spell doom once you focus him. He's typically the champion that dies first when he enters teamfight for a good reason. His teamfighting is also garbage unless he pulls off and ult, are you telling me that isn't a weakness? Yasuo is also significantly easier to CC and burst down compared to the other examples, because they are range whereas Yasuo is melee. Alternative facts clearly showing.

It seems that all of the discussion surrounded getting Yasuo into play, at the expense of literally everything else including feedback from the community. I know full well it is hard to stop late game hypercarries, but they can still be stopped. Yasuo has that uncanny ability, again given to him by his forgiving kit, to be able to go into those high risk situations, and if it goes wrong, get out. Yes a good anything I listed above is hard to play against, but still they can be stopped.

Already addressed your forgiving point. How the hell does Yasuo go out? He needs the minion wave, he can only go in. He's ridiculously susceptible to ganks, why do you think he's camped? If his kit allows him to get the fuck out so easily, why the fuck does a jungler come to Yasuo to fuck him up all the time?

The fact that again this sole reason to get champs that have a high ban rate into play seemed to be the central focus of the new ban system shows flawed thinking. If they are banned this much, then maybe there needs to be a look at why. Or in the case of Yasuo, just start reading the Gameplay forum, type "Yasuo" into the search bar, and start reading. Bring come coffee. The community, from everything I've read, seems to be dead set, wholly against this new system, but Riot just again forces it down our throats in the name of getting champs into play.

So you're telling me Riot should listen to the fucking gameplay section? Are you serious? It's full of mindless bitching and whining, people who use false or outdated facts. In fact, most of the time, people don't even use facts! Most people don't even bother suggestion how to fix broken champions, spread blatant lies and don't back up their fucking claims.

Enough with this nonsense. When you make a post about a champion, use actual arguments and facts. Not bullshit that makes it clear that you are more biased than Donald Trump or you have never fucking played the champion; you don't understand how Yasuo's kit works at all.

And looking up OP's profile, you can see he mains Supports, Adcs and mages. No bias at all.

Hèntaî 3 votes

I like you. You a real one.

GULAG 4 U3 votes

For fuck's sake OP should add to his post 'I am clearly biased, I did 0 fact checking and I have no idea what I'm talking about'.

Hella Kaiser2 votes

the OP only listed the reasons why HE bans him... wtf is wrong with that???

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Except he didn't list the reasons why he did. He lists lies and false things and claims that's why Yasuo is banned.

Hella Kaiser2 votes

{quoted}

I'll list my reasons, feel free to disagree or like them at your leisure.

uhm, what?

GULAG 4 U2 votes

Okay, I made a mistake. Fine. He then he suggests to rebalance Yasuo around his personal reasons, which are mostly composed to false lies.

Hella Kaiser3 votes

the roots of his reasons are somewhat valid, but he looked at it in the wrong way i'll try to fix his explanations with the root reason of why he feels like that

  1. "he's obnoxius to play against..." the majority of the league community finds yasuo unfun to play against. as this is a personal feeling and cannot be objectibly true or false, the majority wins... sorry.

  2. "no skill champ, no risk high reward." this is false... but it comes from something true. yasuo can outplay you very easilly but can't outplay yas with the same impact... this makes the champ feel like a "no skill champ" while you must think for more than 2 seconds to be good with yasuo... but in low elo teamfight he's a no-brainer.

  3. "With two items, he can destroy almost anyone in a 1v1..." it's skill based... bad yasuos can win a 1v1 against any bad player, but in high elo is harder, as a good yas needs to really outplay the enemy to win the 1v1. in bronze a yasuo could kill an annie with only 2 items...

  4. "He's a hypercarry. However, unlike other hypercarries, which have either weak mid or early games, he has a strong early, mid, and late game..." kind of... the problem power curve starts building up fast after 2 items, but never drops... this leads up to a feeling of oppression for the whole game.

  5. "Even if he is behind, as long as he stays up with CS and doesn't feed anyone, he can still destroy late game with little chance to stop him..." he's ment to, and that's the problem... yasuo ends up as an assassin-skirmisher-bruisery-lategame hypercarry. it feels too safe and yet to aggressive... shifting some power in his kit to favor a fixed type of playstyle should fix his build problems, as all of his past builds were cancerous... bruiser yas was satan's cancer himself.

Volphi4 votes

[deleted]

Hella Kaiser1 votes
  1. i can't read polish, sorry.
  2. i was explaining why the OP wrote them
  3. same
  4. what makes him a skirmisher and what keeps him back from being an assassin, a bruiser, or an lategame hypercarry? bacause he didn't receive any big changes but in S5 he was an assassin, S6 he was a bruiser, S7 skirmisher/lategame carry?
  5. he has a weak early game and can solo carry lategame by having extremely high dmg. he is the definition of lategame hypercarry.

edit: i looked at the italian page of wikipedia... that's not how it works. i'm talking about subjective stuff. let's say, when's cold? what temperature is considerable cold? is 12°C cold? you might say yes, but why? because most people find that cold... otherwise if we base subjectives things on science ecc. we end up with 1°C is medium temperature, -1°C is cold, 99°C is still medium temperature, 101°C is hot. you see, we're talking about subjective matters, the exemples given by wikipedia are not valid in this context as they are not subjective.

Volphi2 votes

[deleted]

Hella Kaiser2 votes

{quoted}

Read the definition I provided.

But yasuo if built in the right way has burst dmg...

Except his damage isn't extremely high because of his crit damage penalty and for sure he can't solo carry lategame.

Except his dmg is extremely high because he only has to buy 2 crit items to reach the 100% crit chance, while yi has to invest in other crit items... Yasuo can build dmg over that crit if he wants to go down assassin's path or durability if he wants to be bruisery, but can still solo carry late.

Yi is a better example of a hypercarry. He has much better stickness and greater damage than Yasuo. While having worse early and mid game than Yasuo.

He works just like yas goddamit... The only difference is that yas is harder.

Except it's how it works. It's logic. let's say, when's cold? what temperature is considerable cold? is 12°C cold? you might say yes, but why? because most people find that cold...

I've already explained that below. you see, we're talking about subjective matters, the exemples given by wikipedia are not valid in this context as they are not subjective.

Because you are focusing on one single situation where you also ignore many variables instead of looking at it from the distance.

First of all, let's take into consideration your example. If 90% of the world thinks 17°C is cold, then 10% who doesn't experience adverse of cold environment and doesn't feel cold. But that doesn't matter because as you said majority is right so despite they don't feel cold they must feel cold at 17°C. You've just created a paradox.

I'm not saying that they must feel cold if they don't. I'm saying that since the majority feels cold at 17°C, it's considered universally cold.

Nope, you just don't understand.

Let's say, are insects gross? I mean, not to you. In general... Are they gross?

Volphi1 votes

[deleted]

Hella Kaiser1 votes

{quoted}

No, Yasuo doesn't have burst damage. Yasuo has high sustained damage.

So E Q aa is not burst dmg?

2 crit items aren't lategame. Also Yi's best build isn't based on crit. Also Yas's crit damage is lowered.

If thake that out of it's context ofc it doesn't makes sense!!! I was saying that the crit dmg reduction doesn't reduce yas' dmg as he only needs 2 crit items to reach 100% and after that he can build dmg, that gets amplified by the crit. So he's half crit and half raw dmg.

There isn't such a thing as assassin's path. Yasuo isn't an assassin. And Yasuo can't solo carry late way ahead.

I guess that in S5 pro players lied to us... Yasuo's assassin build was the best back then.

He is NOTHING like Yas. Yas many utilities in his Kit, Yi has only his W. Yas base stats are thrash, Yi's not. Yas has a windwall as a situational defense, Yi has only Q which is hardly reliable because it's a damage dealer, gap closer and situational defense and his only means of dodging CC and skillshots. Which mean he will use it as a situational defense in majority of time.

I've already explained below why it is a wrong logic.

But they are not right. Also universally - for everyone, so still no. I mean, not to you. In general... Are they gross?

Nope.

Why aren't​ they gross?

Volphi1 votes

[deleted]

Hella Kaiser1 votes

{quoted}

It's not. Again Yas is high sustained damage. But his high sustained damage may be mistaken with burst. So he's half crit and half raw dmg.

It does reduce his damage and it's implemented because Yasuo has double crit chance steroid.

it doesn't... if you removed the crit passive all together yasuo would deal less dmg.

Also 2 items aren't lategame.

  1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority
  2. Definition of assassin:

It's nothing like Yas.

yeah, it's nothing like a samurai that dashes through the frontline to attack the enemy carrys and 3shot them... nothing like that...

Why are they gross? They are not gross on their own. It's just human's perception. Many other animals don't perceive them as gross. You need to separate human's bias and subjective perspective from reality. Especially when you can overwhelm it and once you do that they are not gross anymore.

but are generally considered gross.

And you still haven't answered to the other post: Also that doesn't apply do anyone because people have different reaction to temperature.

Also it's not 90% If people considered 40 degrees C cold, so they would be right?

the existance of witches is not based on human senses, while temperature is. a good exemple would be time. it's completely subjective, and yet we mesure it.

Incognonymous5 votes

I am proud to say, no one will play Yasuo so long as I am banning. Lee and Zed are annoying, but for all their faults they eclipsed by the fucking idiocy of Yasuo's continued existence in his current state.

nm10105 votes

What's the apdo quote?

"Bullshit aside Yasuo is a broken champion. People say he's a high skillcap champion, but the secret with Yasuo is knowing how to control yourself while playing such a overpowered champion. Yasuo's weakness comes from the fact that he is too strong. His laning phase is so strong that after the laning phase people do not know how to keep calm and throw the game."

Yeah he is really seen as a hard champ by the bestplayers.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Other thing to note; adpo's quote about Yasuo actually means little to nothing. He says that if you have good control and don't fuck up, then you'll go ballistic. This is only a problem if people are able to stay in control. There's no point balancing around something that nobody does.

nm10102 votes

So what you are saying is that Yasuo should stay overpowered so that people feel more loose and will not play well and may in fact lose more than they should? I personally like my opponents to have to try to win, not have to avoid fucking up a likely win.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

No, because if no one is doing well on this supposedly overpowered champion, how is the champion overpowered?

And if what apdo said was true, why do you not have high elo playing him? High elo fuck ups less, so Yasuo should be more broken no? That's not the case.

DunkinNoobs1 votes

{quoted}

No, because if no one is doing well on this supposedly overpowered champion, how is the champion overpowered?

Yasuo is apparently one of those champs that is insanely broken but everyone who plays him is so garbage that it makes him look bad. All the best Yasuo players don't play Yasuo from what I can tell.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

The argument that supports apdo's quote is dumb. That's like saying using an axe in a kendo duel is overpowered if you can swing as fast as a normal katana and if you don't leave yourself open. In theory, you would dumpster everyone because you are unparriable. In reality you would never be able to swing the goddamn thing that fast and anyone will abuse the large openings you create.

DunkinNoobs2 votes

{quoted}

What's the apdo quote?

Apdo also said that new Ryze was garbage and Riot ended up having to completely gut him to get him out of pro play.

Lauchmelder3 votes

Apdo only talks about SoloQ.

DunkinNoobs1 votes

Apdo is a mid lane main that boosts for a living but doesn't play Yasuo. I'm sure he's just avoiding him because he doesn't want to make it too easy, right?

Lauchmelder1 votes

What does that have to do with my post?

nm10101 votes

The last time Apdo tried to show off he won 45 games in a row on 15 different champions before getting banned.

I'm sure you aren't saying he isn't skilled enough to play the champion. Even if that is what you are saying he had a 60% winrate on Yasuo on one of his accounts. These were more than likely the games he was talking about in the interview, and that was first time playing the champion.

DunkinNoobs1 votes

Elo Boosters aren't exactly known for sandbagging. If Yasuo were as broken as he claims, he'd play him. He doesn't.

nm10101 votes

How do you know? He seems disgusted by the champ in his quote so I doubt he plays him on his own accounts and we don't exactly have the names of accounts he has boosted.

DunkinNoobs1 votes

There are a few videos of him playing Yasuo and he does well enough. He clearly can handle the champ, and yet chooses not to play it anyway despite declaring it broken. I wonder what the reason could be? Perhaps it's the same reason very few of the other top players don't pick Yasuo; because he's not actually that amazing.

nm10101 votes

For apdo specifically I've already said he seems to despise the champ personally, same reason you can't find a game of him playing Leblanc. As for other top players its probably because many of them are on LCS teams or want to be and Yasuo isn't an LCS champion. That still doesn't change his status in solo queue.

DunkinNoobs2 votes

{quoted}

For apdo specifically I've already said he seems to despise the champ personally, same reason you can't find a game of him playing Leblanc.

Someone who despises a champ thinks it's broken? That's so surprising. It's almost like he's biased just like anyone else would be.

As for Yasuo not being "an LCS champion", that's just a load of shit. The pros play the best champs available no matter what and many, many champions that were never considered LCS worthy for whatever reason managed to find play anyway once they became strong enough. It's an even stranger excuse for Yasuo because he has seen LCS play in the past, which shows the pros are willing to use him when the time is right. Apparently, now is not that time because there's nary a pick or ban of Yasuo in sight.

nm10101 votes

He doesn't say Leblanc is broken and the whole "he can't have an unbiased opinion because he doesn't like the champ" is a fallacious argument.

I have proven in the past how fickle pro teams can be with what they will and won't play and have predicted new meta picks multiple times. Including almost down to the near meaningless balance change itself how Ziggs would see pro play ~2 months before it happened.

He just doesn't fit the current meta that LCS teams play for and if you can't understand that there is a difference between solo q and LCS then I really don't know what to tell you.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Apdo claims that he doesn't play leblanc nor Yasuo because he isn't familiar with quickcast.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Actually, Apdo doesn't play Yasuo because he isn't familiar with quickcast. That's what he says.

Cryo003 votes

Yeah sure he is really frustrating to play against, especially if your kit is projectile based, but he is definitely not a no brainer champion. Playing Yasuo properly is pretty hard.

Wind wall is needed as a way for him to deal with being a squishy MELEE carry, plus against most melee opponents he is playing with three skills instead of four as wind wall literally becomes a useless skill. His dueling potential is immense, but so is that of that of Jax, FIora and Master Yi (Who I think is worse to deal with than Yasuo).

I will admit that his early game is too strong for being a late game hyper carry. A lot of the frustration also stems from Yasuo "mains" who don't realize how fed you need to be to pull off the montage plays, and end up feeding so much that even Cho'Gath becomes full.

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