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Does Camille even have mana costs?

Darth StepVader·12/17/2016, 7:51:13 PM·65 votes·5,062 views

Yea yea, before some smart guys around here start spamming that i should get eye surgery and check the champion page, i KNOW she has some mana costs in her abilities. BUT, she is even worse than last year's reworked Darius. She can just spam her abilities without her mana bar dropping below 70%, while you watch yours being sucked trying to match her pushing and dueling.

I have NO problem with her damage, NO problem with her kit and scalings but, her ability to mindlessly spam stuff is annoying and unfair.

So, Riot instead of future foolish nerfs, just focus on this problem. Other than that, i believe she is quite balanced.

54 Comments

A Humble Sinner12/17/2016, 8:24:43 PM22 votes

Fiora had this same problem after her rework. It was one of the ways Riot ended up nerfing her to add counterplay.

Sraeg201312/18/2016, 12:59:02 AM9 votes

while you watch yours being sucked trying to match her pushing [...]

Um... The last time I checked she had no wave clear.

ShadowLiberty12/18/2016, 12:57:43 AM5 votes

Camille is not OP, people who complain that she's OP simply do not know how to play against her or fight her. There are DOZENS of champions who can beat her one on one and even more who can do it with the team around. RIOT designed her to be unable to fight against a team or other champions who have even a halfway decent amount of cc. If we're going to talk about OP then people should be talking about champions like Fizz, Rengar, LeBlanc, Veigar, etc. People need to stop complaining, otherwise they'll just nerf a good champion into the ground because you guys don't know how to adequately fight her and subsequently complain about it.

Blåbæret12/17/2016, 11:56:40 PM5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darth Tyrannus,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E2NQvO8R,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-12-17T19:51:13.004+0000)

Yea yea, before some smart guys around here start spamming that i should get eye surgery and check the champion page, i KNOW she has some mana costs in her abilities. BUT, she is even worse than last year's reworked Darius. She can just spam her abilities without her mana bar dropping below 70%, while you watch yours being sucked trying to match her pushing and dueling.

I have NO problem with her damage, NO problem with her kit and scalings but, her ability to mindlessly spam stuff is annoying and unfair.

So, Riot instead of future foolish nerfs, just focus on this problem. Other than that, i believe she is quite balanced.

Played against a Camille that had to back twice due to no mana. Tbh, she's not really meant to be mana gated, but if she spams her abilities she'll go oom, so stop lying.

Unlucky4712/18/2016, 3:19:16 AM2 votes

I think camilles ult is a problem because no one can really out duel her so whoever she ults is just fucked. If her ult didnt last as long I wouldnt mind it as much

Swarovsko12/17/2016, 11:31:13 PM2 votes

Keep dreaming son. Watch how they will nerf her into the ground until nobody wants to play her again, just like they did with Tali, Tham Kench, Aurelion Sol and many others.

the weeaboo12/18/2016, 3:31:53 AM2 votes

I have wanted Riot to nerf her mana costs since the first time I played her. Now I'm mastery 4 and will admit they are stupidly low. I propose that we increase Q to 45 mana and give a 20 mana refund on-kill. Then she can still use it for farming, but extended trades will hurt. Then increase her E to 100 mana then refund 40 mana for if it hits an enemy champion so it punishes you for using it for escaping or missing with it.

I honestly think this is the only broken part of Camille, is that she can just keep trading over and over without having to back. If she went OOM after 2 or 3 trades then it wouldnt be that bad seeing as all of her damage except that first Q is easily dodgable.

Verandure12/18/2016, 8:47:22 AM2 votes

For a bit of maths to explain how this actually looks...

Mana: 339(+32/lv) Mana regen per 5 seconds: 1.65(+0.15/lv)

|Spell --------------------|Cost|------------------------|Cooldown| |- |Q| 25|| 9(-0.75/lv) |W| 50(+5/lv)|| 15(-1.5/lv) |E| 50|| 16(-1.5/lv) |R| 100|| 140(-25/lv)

t= -Mana/[(Cost/Cooldown)-(ManaRregen/5)]

Assuming no mana regeneration or mana in her runes and masteries:

She has a level 1 spam window of 138, 113, and 121 seconds.

This equates to approximately 15 Q casts, or 7.5 casts of either W or E.

At level 2; she can spam 2 abilities, on cooldown, for 62-69 seconds before running out of mana. Levels 3+ are too degenerate for me to work out, by hand.

This is all in isolation and cannot be used to gauge the actual strength of the champion, relative to others. It is just a single limiting reagent that Riot places on champions and says nothing of the balance thereof.

Pale Pirate12/18/2016, 11:53:16 AM2 votes

I am a little unsure how RIOT feels about mana costs. I think they don't see any design value into it.

Poorly Dressed12/18/2016, 1:43:26 PM2 votes

Mana Costs on old slow champs: full combo without R 50% mana spent. Mana Costs on new champs with 3 hit passive, dashes and true damage: 10% mana

PROJECT Katarìna12/18/2016, 5:29:31 PM2 votes

Her Q is single target shove the wave in early and she will lose a lot of cs because she lacks waveclear and the safety off autoing from range

DorkunedAuras12/18/2016, 3:27:25 AM1 votes

I've never seen either of the two Camilles I've seen run out of mana. Mostly because they die too fast to burn through their mana

Sire Hippington12/19/2016, 5:00:40 AM1 votes

If you actually spam your shit with her, she does run oom. She works like most fighters, if you don't have excessive use of your abillities the mana is fine, but if you start to spam stuff, you run oom.

The W could use some more costs maybe, as it's ranged harras+sustain and can be used rather freely, but else it's fine as it is. I think heavy managateing is only neccesary for poke, waveclear(atleast from range) or sustain, or really good trades in lane, else it's just an annoyance with little purpose.

Sir Fuzzi12/19/2016, 6:56:16 AM1 votes

She does seem to have non-intrusive mana costs, which is bizarre because she can build right into two of three Sheen items easily. She should probably be forced to at least consider mana builds if she's going to be mana-sustainable in lane.

Shinomori12/19/2016, 4:19:20 AM1 votes

To be fair camille's push isn't that strong unless you let her push. Also, if she's top lane and starts corrupting potion then she will probably never really run out of mana unless she is constantly spamming abilities. Besides some of her numbers will be adjusted soon.

KoKoboto12/18/2016, 12:06:35 AM1 votes

Rito has this thing of giving new champions no mana costs unless they're a mage or something They think that mana is lame and shouldn't be something players consider but at the same time use it to gate specific champs like Ryze/Anivia/Aurelion Sol to an extent, forcing them to buy mana over raw AP.

CookyPrince12/18/2016, 12:11:01 AM1 votes

Even Dyrus thought she was a manaless champ cus he felt like she never used any

Head Connoisseur12/17/2016, 11:56:32 PM1 votes

I've played her several times in the jungle and I've never gotter even remotely low (starting machete on red side).

Sozan512/17/2016, 11:45:21 PM1 votes

Oh yeah, I'd say this is a recurring problem for a lot of champions.

Dunno why, but it seems like Rito is afraid of giving champs substantial mana costs lately. This is especially apparent in waveclear abilities and it's the exact place where it shouldn't occur... And don't get me even started on manaless waveclear (seriously, some of those really need some minion damage reduction Yasuo ).

PlanetWarwick12/17/2016, 10:52:18 PM1 votes

Her q costs nothing but her e and w do Her ult, if she doesn't recall, drains most remaining mana normally