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Neeko E is the strongest non-ultimate CC Ability in the game; on a burst mage.

i4got2pull0ut··62 votes·16,135 views

Even the most vanilla of consent designers can agree that Neeko's E, Tangle-Barbs, is a necessary piece of her kit to maximize the efficiency of her Q, Blooming Burst. On release, Tangle-Barbs needed to pass through 2 enemy units to gain the empowered root, the empowered root only effected the last champion hit, this felt underwhelming; If the ability was fired through a minion, Jinx, and finished on Elise, Elise would be hit with the empowered root (This was the example in the Champion Spotlight). Admittedly, this ability did need a buff; however, what we revived is frequently looked over without second thought.

On patch 9.5, the "Champion hit" condition was removed, the requirement to gain the empowerment was reduced to 1, the non-empowered root duration was buffed all ranks (This will be touched on later), and then there was a minor bug fix where the ability was disarming. Neeko was soon after hotfixed on March 11th, reducing her attack speed growth, her attack damage growth, and a base damage nerf on Shapesplitter, Neeko's W.

Originally, Tangled-Barbs had a .5 second root duration for the first target hit; the change on 9.5 was large, taking a CC duration from .5 all ranks to (.7 / .9 / 1.1 / 1.3 / 1.5). This means that even for landing the first root on an enemy champion grants you 2 stacks of Blooming Burst (Neeko's Q) on a champion, and landing the empowered root means you get off full duration from Blooming Burst. For perspective, here are the numbers for the empowered duration. (1.8 / 2.1 / 2.4 / 2.7 / 3). And yes, this means that Tangle-Barbs scales faster in duration then Morganna's Dark Binding.

The duration of Tangled-Barbs gives Neeko an almost nonpunishable combo in the early game. Currently, the champion is being flexed outside of mid lane about 45% of the time, meaning shes in mid roughly 55%. This combo feels even more debilitating if you are playing a melee into Neeko; the combination between the movement speed and clone from her her W, and her QE combo make for a very slippery lane bully, even into champions with a strong early all-in like Cammile or Aatrox.

This duration wouldn't be a problem if Neeko was maxing the ability last, but statistically (according to OP.GG, which is KR only) 95% of Neeko players max E second; additionally every website that offers Neeko guides (Mobafire was not used) say most matches max E second, but do not provide an easy statistic. Meaning that Neeko has a 3 second root available to her that she can aim through targets. The only other champion with a basic CC duration like that is Morganna, but Neeko's is better in a team fight because it effects multiple people, and has Dark Binding beat on missile speed.

In conclusion, please nerf Neeko. Thanks.

Sources: https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Neeko#Tangle-Barbs https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Morgana https://na.op.gg/champion/neeko/statistics/mid https://champion.gg/champion/Neeko/Middle?league= https://u.gg/lol/champions/neeko/build https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPj48lmrynU

77 Comments

Akali is SO HOT45 votes

Veigar's E

MemoriesMakeMe15 votes

I think it was bad when it was instant haha

RainbowIcee7 votes

remember when Kassadin had a silence on his Q? and Leblanc and Talon ? now those were dark times. And we complained less about the game and felt it was more balanced... weird lol

3TWarrior6 votes

well, back then they actively worked to keep the game fair and fun

now it's all based around that magical number 50...

Sucction8 votes

[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BpLjlY7r,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-06-29T09:29:06.411+0000)

Veigar's E

Veigar's E is 2.25 seconds.

It is a stun, and you could also argue it's a better ability, but it's as strong a cc.

koshkyra2 votes

Its also significantly harder to avoid and a stun is better than a root in every situation.

2Charmnot2Charm8 votes

{quoted}

Veigar's E is 2.25 seconds.

It is a stun, and you could also argue it's a better ability, but it's as strong a cc.

There is no Arguing, the cage stun is better 100%.

  1. Stuns>Snares: people that are snared can still retaliate with damage/cc, and even use items like item 3157 to prevent anymore incoming burst. The only two things snare prevents is movement commands and dash/blinks, but then you realize stuns do that in addition to everything else it does.

  2. Doesn't depend on minion waves to reach targets while neeko needs minions to get her ideal snare.

  3. Even if Veigar misses the stun, keeping someone trapped inside AND zoning others outside of the cage is still really good.

The cage may have lower cc duration (2 second stun is enough anyways), but it's still much stronger than Neeko's E will ever be.

Larriet7 votes

Veigar's stun also interrupts dashes, unlike Neeko's root and most other forms of cc, by the way.

TisBis1 votes

Not a mage, but Yasuo nado

BLIGHTBRINGER1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BpLjlY7r,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-06-29T09:29:06.411+0000)

Veigar's E

Vinegars*

voidscaler2 votes

Veigar's e has a charge up time meaning it's easier to avoid, and while the cage is very powerful in containing a champion they can still move around inside it Combine that with veigar being a much more imobile and less slippery champion it makes him much more reliant on the e to fight (it also has a much longer cd) Neekos snare is much lower cd, lands faster, lasts longer, and she is a faster champion with stealth (meaning much safer without it) One land of the e garentees a full q meaning she can throw out the two abilities and immediately back off completely safe Now I don't know how I would balance neeko if the snare was reduced in duration, as if it was she would definitely be weaker But as it is she is a VERY irritating champion to lane against and imo I much prefer seeing a veigar on the enemy team then a neeko

RipReviveFkRito30 votes

fuck that shit, every champion they've released since 2017 has been broken, even the god damn reworks aren't playable half of the time, either stuck in instapick/ban or unplayable.

SEKAI14 votes

I agree Neeko's E is broken.

But nothing compares to Zoe and whatever she stands for, especially in the subject of broken non-ultimate CCs (such as her W and E).

i4got2pull0ut15 votes

Completely agree, Zoe W should apply some sort of debuff where, if you use the summoner spell while its active, then she can take it. And the E shouldn't sit on the ground and when they did the first round of nerfs on it, I am unsure why the true damage stayed.

Zoe at the very least, isnt easy to play.

D357R0Y3R6 votes

imagine thinking that zoe's E is stronger than neeko's E

what a hilarious joke jfc

Doctor Camille3 votes

Lol zoe's e isnt true damage, its magic. Even though its damage text is white the damage itself is reduced by mr and blackshields

i4got2pull0ut5 votes

Yes it does. The initial damage is magic; however once asleep the ability reads:

"The next instance of champion or turret damage taken by the Sleep icon sleeping target deals Hybrid penetration bonus true damage equal to the post-mitigation damage dealt, capped at Sleepy Trouble Bubble's damage."

It has done this ever since day 1, and please keep in mind that the true damage does not require Zoe to pop it, it can be popped by anyone. Meaning that even if my tank blocks the shot my ADC, the ability has the same damage threat regardless of tanks MR.

See link: https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Zoe

Doctor Camille1 votes

alright i phrased myself wrong. The damage itself is true damage however it deals the same damage that it would do if it was actually magic or physical damage. as you stated yourself the e deals post-mitigation damage which means that the game calculates what the damage would be and then applies it as true damage on the sleeping target.

KnKitsune1 votes

{quoted}

Lol zoe's e isnt true damage, its magic. Even though its damage text is white the damage itself is reduced by mr and blackshields

According to her kit, damage to a sleeping target is bonus true damage.

Doctor Camille1 votes

from my other comment:

alright i phrased myself wrong. The damage itself is true damage however it deals the same damage that it would do if it was actually magic or physical damage. as you stated yourself the e deals post-mitigation damage which means that the game calculates what the damage would be and then applies it as true damage on the sleeping target.

Baltharaaz2 votes

The true damage should 100% remain true damage because of the functionality of the ability is to double the damage of the next attack, up to the a cap that is equal to the damage of the initial impact of the ability.

Therefore, whatever incoming attack hits the target will already be mitigated, unless it itself is true damage. If you change this damage to something other than true damage, the target effectively double dips on mitigation, and the proc/pop damage is lowered even further.

This would be most evident with a move that gets mitigated to deal the only slightly higher, the same, or less damage than the pop. The pop will not equal that same value and be even smaller due to also being mitigated. You would effectively never deal the capped damage because it would just be mitigated.

i4got2pull0ut1 votes

This comment was too big brain for my sleep deprived head. You seem to know what you are talking about so imma upvote and go next.

Moody P12 votes

Zoe can be body blocked which puts her a step up on healthiness over 80% of mages in the game

Gear5Luffy8 votes

when you make excuses for zoe [zombie-brand-facepalm]

Moody P19 votes

zoe is stupid for a couple reasons but her CC isn't one of them

Caitlyn FTW1 votes

[deleted]

Moody P4 votes

big brains value my Moody wisdom

FilDaFunk7 votes

Is this a "Zoe is worse, so don't nerf Neeko" comment?

SEKAI8 votes

{quoted}

Is this a "Zoe is worse, so don't nerf Neeko" comment?

It's a "nerf both Zoe and Neeko, but Zoe first please" comment.

KETSU014 votes

fiddle fear would like to have a word with you.

Disabled Rat4 votes

Well fiddle's fear is strong that I will agree however it is not to the point of being busted. Why? Because the range is so short and his combo is indeed annoying to play against but has its counters. But the main reason why neeko is a problem is because of she lands her e she wins the trade. Imagine you are in the mid lane right and you are playing your favorite mid laner against a neeko. All she has to do is just hit her e (which travels through minions) and q and maybe an auto attack then she can withdraw and win the trade. While it does leave a window for like Leblanc or something to go in, half the time she will just run away until her combo is up. And even if you were to punish her you would still tank lots of minion damage because of her early ability to push. She is not able to be punished enough to be hard. Now I think possible solutions to this would be increase Mana on q and e (mainly e) so the neeko player has a decision to make; shove the wave or go for harassment.

Pika Fox8 votes

Veigar's E is a far better non ult CC.

Illabethe8 votes

Sorry but it's not even close to a Morg Q, Veigar Wall, Fiddle Fear

Root is just a root. Not a Stun etc.

And once she gets momentum, Qiyana's Q is also going to be considered extremely broken CC; It's an almost spammable root, in the same kit as a knockback, a stun, and 2 dashes. The duration is low, but it can be cast twice in tandem, and can be recast about 4 seconds later AGAIN. 3 1 second roots are FAR more destructive than any single root, because they all have the opportunity to stop an action, where a 1 3 second root only stops ONE action.

That makes for up to 5 skill disrupters in a single kit.

Disabled Rat2 votes

I would argue that it is better than morg q (speed) and better than fiddle's fear (commented about why). However I agree with you about the veigar cage. However I think that veigar needs his e to become a champion. Late game the e is a monster and same with early but with his early game he needs e. How else would he be able to do against assassin's? If he had something like any of the other cc that you listed he would be an absolute early game monster if he had morgs q and hit that it would be disastrous if he hit that on an opponent. Same with fid's fear. Now that would be a Nerf to his late game that would be fine imo because it would give him an early foundation that is much stronger and so it does not matter. Now I do agree that veigar e is better it scales just like the rest of his abilities. I think the main problem people have with veig is that they don't punish him enough in the early game. Which is why I think his e's CD needs to be longer so if you counter pick him you have a longer time to punish him. This would make him unviable in higher elos where the jgler would help set him behind, but at the same time he already is already basically useless in high elo where they know how to play against him. It would just give lower elo players more time to punish him because in like bronze or something any veig with 3 or more braincells would do well enough in the early game and transfer that into the late game

Ackelope3 votes

Morgana's Q is also a root, I think these abilities are pretty similar in power level, with Neeko's E probably being overall a bit stronger due to having a higher potential for CC in a teamfight and being able to send it through minions. (personally I think a potentially decent way to nerf it is to make it something like Lux's Q, so it can only pass through a certain number of units before dissipating, though it's hard to say just how crippling of a nerf that would be.)

Tranoze7 votes

It stronger than any other ultimate cc, not just non ultimate ability.

DuskDaUmbreon2 votes

Yeah...I have to agree with the other guy. The fuck are you on?

Pretty much any ultimate with CC is better than her E.

You're really going to tell me a fucking root is stronger than Ashe's 3.5 second stun? Or Morgana or Sona or Leona's potential 5-man stuns? Or Morde, Malz, or Skarner's CC that require you to get QSS?

If you think an ability that has a joke of a root unless you hit something else is stronger than any of that then I have great concerns for your ability to rank things.

4th3t0s7 votes

Veigar : I WILL NOT BE IGNORED!

JinHae6 votes

Syndra E [sg-syndra]

Hayaishi26 votes

Give it a 20 second cooldown early game.

Schenix6 votes

Veigar Cage, Zoe Bubble, Nasus Wither, Lulu Polymorph, Galio Taunt, Morgana Bind, Lux Bind (being played for it being a one point wonder for support in pro play), Fiddledicks Fear, Nocturne Fear, Syndra Scatter, etc.

There's a decent amount of powerful non ultimate CC abilities present. Looking at the entire kit is necessary as well as playstyle, not just how a single ability functions.

Otherwise we would be angry about some comparison like Thresh ultimate being a weaker Veigar cage and how his is an ultimate rather than basic.

Zardo5 votes

Overall I don't think she's too strong, but that ability could 100% use a nerf back to what it originally was.

xDogMeatx5 votes

neekos E is pretty much a piercing morgana snare. now if we add in morgana its a AFK moment where you need to either make a sandwich or go to the bathroom if you get hit by both.

ModAcademy Kayn5 votes

It's Conditonally the best non-ulitmate CC ability in the game. Without hitting an extra minion, it then becomes an average, if not worse, CC ability than most other mages. Even then, it's really not the best, other CC's deserve that title more.

ADC Is Trash2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Academy Kayn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BpLjlY7r,comment-id=0016,timestamp=2019-06-29T21:17:37.414+0000)

It's Conditonally the best non-ulitmate CC ability in the game. Without hitting an extra minion, it then becomes an average, if not worse, CC ability than most other mages. Even then, it's really not the best, other CC's deserve that title more.

So this is like saying Kalista's Rend only has power when she has stacks; or Syndra's E is only good when she uses Q first. OR BETTER YET: Veigar's R is only good when the target is low.

You're right, it is weaker when there is nothing for the ability to proc the empowerment, but Neeko doesnt look for the 1v1 outside of lane. This would make more sense if she fit a role closer in similarity to that of an assassin or duelist; the truth of the matter is: she is a burst mage.

Saying other abilities "deserve the title more" is a rather nit-picky abstract; particularly when you provide no information to support that. There are lots of abilities that require something to happen to get value. Urgot/Pyke R: Target needs to be in Ex. Threshold for maximum value. Kalista E: Needs to stack spears Maokai: E is sig. better when its used from bush Kayn R: Target needs to be damaged by Kayn first

I could go on. Regardless if its bad when its solo, when the empowerment is there (something that is incredible easy to get), makes the ability strong. Its not the existence of the condition, but how strong the ability is when it is met; particularly in lane.

And I don't mean to be that guy; but its very hard to take any criticism from someone who is biased towards the champion in question. When you play the champion, obv. you are going to disagree when someone says something is too strong.

DuskDaUmbreon2 votes

The thing is, Syndra and Veigar can easily control that.

You can't make a minion or enemy be in the way for your root to be worth a shit.

Tuition Fee2 votes

Man, this is not gonna get a lot of love, but I gotta say this; Neeko is fine. She's sitting at a healthy 50% winrate. Her E starts off slowly. They already nerfed her ult so it doesn't slow. Her late game isn't that great, on account of her range. She has to put herself on the line in teamfights to land the AOE ult, and if she uses Zhonya's, she can't move, meaning you can easily move out of range.

5050BS2 votes

Its Zyra 's E on crack.

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