%Health true damage

cfreetenor·10/23/2015, 10:36:14 AM·15 votes·1,209 views

Why not %Current health true damage instead, or a mixture of the two? Tanks can still be tanks and Vayne still has to build damage to delete everyone all the time after level 11. Maybe will even see LW picked up. I just don't like that in a duel with vayne a difference of 2000 health and 100 armor can mean surviving maybe 3 more auto attacks when the whole point of tanks is surviving. Like I get the whole squishy hypercarry thing, but when you have a stun + knockback and a tumble and invisibility on top of one of the highest armor ratings for an ADC in the game the insta-deletion by just building attack speed (all of which provides even more utility) seems overloaded.

19 Comments

N0rth Wind10/23/2015, 11:32:54 AM11 votes

You mean that 2000 additinal HP and 100 additional armor make a difference to other carries, but they're nothing to Vayne who can shred through it with 3 auto attacks, just because the third one will do 60 + 8% max HP true damage?

I'm sorry but I call bullshit. At 3000 HP, 60 + 8% = 300 bonus damage every 3 hits. Or, 100 bonus damage every hit, that cannot crit.

Are you trying to say that 100 bonus damage per hit are what makes all the difference between Graves (who apparently gets destroyed by +2000 HP & 100 armor) and Vayne (who apparently can delete that much HP in 3 autos with her W alone)? Because I can't help but call that bullshit.

Vayne _does _ do insane damage, but her W is a small part of it. Want proof?

300 damage from her W every 3 hits. In a fight how many autoattacks will she get on the tank (if the tank's allies are not all dead and the tank is being chased by 5 people)? Say 6. That's 600 damage. Or even 9, that's 900 damage.

Have you let other carries auto you 9 times to see what happens? Have you let a Tristana fully proc an E on you, for 700 AoE damage apart from her basic attacks? Have you ever faced a KogMaw that has a good tank in front of him? Have you yet encountered Kindred when they're fed and have a lot of stacks?

People need to realize at last that what makes Vayne too strong is not her fucking W. Stop criminalizing true damage for f*ck's sake. You can't build defenses and steamroll through everything, so get over it and l2 actually play. This isn't "League of Counterbuilds".

That said, I hope to see Vayne tweaked or nerfed in some sort, but her W is not the real issue here. People just scream whenever they see the words "true damage" in the game.

PS: her W hurts squishies more than tanks. The flat 60 damage is actually quite a lot, and squishies feel it much more than a tank, while the % remains the same for both.

Smitemuffin10/23/2015, 12:07:24 PM8 votes

Actually, Vayne's not the problem. It's this:

item 3153

This item was overpowered 4 buffs ago to it. It's the highest on-hit damage of any item to anybody at or over 700 hp. It's a ton of attack speed. It's lifesteal. It's a nuke. It's a slow. It's a speed buff. It's a heal. It has no higher component cost than 700 gold.

Fix BOTRK, fix Vayne. And Zed. And Sated Devourer.

cfreetenor10/23/2015, 12:01:02 PM4 votes

The thing is, you're comparing one of Tristana's active skills (with a shorter range than her autos) and her basic attacks to just vayne's passive on her W - basically, just her autos. What's the cooldown on Tristana's E? And is it true damage?

You compare vayne's true damage to facing Kogmaw and a tank. If you need two champions to make a comparison isn't that unbalanced?

You comare vayne to kindred after she has been fed, and actually gotten kills already. . . when again, kindred can't go 0/0 and have the same effect, and her passive can be mitigated by armor.

I said 2000 extra HP. By the time Vayne is steamrolling, that is going to be far past 3000 HP on most tanks. Yes, it is about 100 true damage every auto.. which equals about 200-250 damage that any other carry would be able to do to a tank, on top of whatever damage Vayne has already built. That is insane DPS.

And I already said the problem wasn't only her true damage. It was that, on top of her amazing self-peel (which has a stun), as well as a short dash (usually all that is needed with all of the bonus MS from AS items), as well as invisibility during her ult.. precisely when she is at her most dangerous she has the least amount of counterplay.

We talk about true damage because it is very difficult to balance and requires the most attention. It is a lot of power that, on top of the % health cancels out a vast majority of counterplay options. It has to be watched really closely .. you know those 6 spots? For items? And you know how armor and resistances are.. well.. like a big part of the game, and of the identity of many of its champions? And for those that it is, they also tend to build health? Both of those are completely negated by this passive. Vayne, in one (passive!) skill, has insane counterplay to an entire class of champions. Acknowledging the fact that these things exist (counters to entire classes, ie Rammus, Veigar, Zed and Yasuo to a lesser extent), Vayne's advantage is very strong without seeming to compromise anywhere else in her kit. The only thing that seems tweaked back to account for this is her q.. which makes her invisible during her ult, on top of giving her insane damage on top of her W.

Condemn is not only a knockback, it is a stun. Don't like the engage? See ya. Full health and about to take the tower? E R AA AA AA Deleted.

Nasus counters her, but only if she's stupid enough to stay engaged with him and he's fed to the point where he can catch up, catch up again after E, and 100-0 her without her getting out of reach with tumble. And that's a maybe - if she lands a stun and Nasus already used his W to engage and catch up, there's a good chance he's dying.

How is passive 100 true damage on every auto attack not overpowered? You say this like "only 100 true damage" but that's actually insane for what is required to proc it (click) and the slot that it takes up in the kit. It should be nerfed to current health% so vayne doesn't have an execute at level 2.

Slamurai Jack10/24/2015, 1:15:06 AM4 votes

Statistically, Only 19.4% of Vaynes total damage to champions is true damage. 78% is physical damage. 19.4% sounds like a lot until you realize that Ahri is 25% true damage and Olaf is 30% true damage. Ironically, Vel'koz is only 14% true damage despite his passive being entirely dedicated to it.

Btw, Fiora is only 21% true damage so don't tell me that defense is worthless against her either.

BattleOxe10/23/2015, 11:37:17 AM4 votes

Well, Vayne doesn't even have THAT much of % true DMG. I mean, ~3% per basic... On the other hand, fiora can delete over 60% of your HP as true DMG with only 2 offensive items (Actual stats)... then, Fiora needs time to proc all those vitals so...

Tatrii10/23/2015, 12:33:10 PM3 votes

Ah yes Vayne, the champion no one has said anything about until juggernauts came around. Seriously I RARELY saw post about vayne until "juggernauts" became a thing I bet you the people complaining about Vayne are the ones playing mordakeiser bot lane, I personally think Vayne is fine and she is one of the only adc's that can hold her own in this stupid meta.

Drive By Max10/23/2015, 1:17:47 PM2 votes

My only problem with her is that she gets invisibility still, even though the biggest counter was removed.

JustMyBassCannon10/23/2015, 9:02:31 PM2 votes

{quoted}

I just don't like that in a duel with vayne a difference of 2000 health and 100 armor can mean surviving maybe 3 more auto attacks when the whole point of tanks is surviving.

Actually, the point of a tank is to disrupt a fight and protect people. Surviving is a side aspect. If you die, but you drew enough focus for your team to win the fight, that's still in the tank's favor.

Also, Vayne was specifically built to be a better tank buster. The only problem with Silver Bolts itself is the flat damage. Vayne's other problem is BotRK.

cfreetenor10/24/2015, 9:12:50 AM1 votes

I see no reason why % current health would destroy Vayne's role as a tank buster. If we made such a change I wouldn't even be upset with 10% current health true damage.. and then let major regeneration actually be effective against her, which is something that people actually claim is some sort of counterplay now. (It's not.. not unless the fight is extremely close in the first place)

THE RlVER KlNG10/23/2015, 12:13:40 PM1 votes

.......is bullshit.

cfreetenor10/23/2015, 12:47:17 PM1 votes

I agree that Darius has his own problems (super tank and damage), I would honestly say most other Juggernauts are not really that oppressive. Well, they're oppressive, but not OPpressive.

I've always noticed something about Vayne, I have just seen over and over again some very whacky trades. She's almost (or just) as slippery as Fizz and basically has a true damage nuke for every 3 auto attacks.. as an ADC.. I've never played Mordekaiser pre or post rework, I usually main skill shot casters. When I tank, it's usually jungle and usually Amumu

Any ADC can hold their own in this meta.. we already have armor pen. We already have BOTRK. We have 250% from crit. ADC's aren't meant to 'hold their own' in the way that Vayne does. She can essentially 1v1 anyone in the game unless she's quite severely outplayed.

I do think a compensation buff would be necessary if we took her down to %current health, or 1-2% max health + 6-7% current health at max rank. I think this could start and end with 100-150 increased attack range. This increases her ability to kite outside of condemn, which she can safe for an engage, and still be essentially just as effective in this situation as she is now. But the issue isn't even that she kills tanks, the issue is that she can kill tanks before they even have the chance to get on her and fire off a full rotation.

Sasogwa10/24/2015, 1:16:20 AM1 votes

Meanwhile Fiora

cfreetenor10/24/2015, 9:09:13 AM1 votes

I actually don't mind Fiora quite so much.. I think the vitals can be retuned so she cant dash-in-dash-out chunk my HP under tower aggro every 10 seconds without taking a tower hit.. but that is something slight, I dont think the actual damage needs to be mitigated as much since she is melee. But for, say Amumu against vayne.. what do? What do for anybody? Be the last one focused and hope Vayne (and or her team) let me cry on her for 15 seconds?