Tanks in the new jungle (Nautilus and Sej need love)

FrozenIndustry·11/20/2014, 5:24:46 PM·37 votes·6,457 views

How is everyone feeling about jungle tanks in the preseason? Overall they're kind of okay, but most seem to have built in defense (Rammus Amumu) or natural sustain (Zac Maokai). In particular, I feel like Nautilus and Sejuani , two of my favorite junglers, have embarrassingly bad first clears. All of Nautilus 's clear potential comes from his W, which is tied to his shield, and since the shield dissipates so quickly you're just kind of left there awkwardly fumbling for damage until you can manage to get your machete upgrade. Sejuani already had a pretty rough clear and things seem to have gotten worse in that regard. They can do just fine once they have items, but with how much harder it seems to come back after falling off in the new jungle (kind of a step back to old problems if you personally ask me), getting those items just became a lot harder.

Any chance we'll see some more tank love later in the preseason? I know it's pretty early to tell and the meta is undergoing huge gradual shifts, but it seems like these two in particular have it pretty bad.

86 Comments

SmokingPuffin11/20/2014, 5:32:53 PM15 votes

Sejuani and Nautilus are really suffering. This is not really news. They weren't in very good shape in the old jungle, and the new jungle is obviously harder.

I do want buffs here. It seems like their playstyle is taking serious collateral damage from the attempt to tone down the damage-oriented early gankers that ruled season 4.

Mahnigguh11/20/2014, 5:28:57 PM6 votes

i used to main jung Naut so i am very upset with this too. Eventually, instead of trying to make more champs viable, there will be only a handful of viable champs and the lcs will be the exact same year after year. In season 6 they are going to start just deleting champs altogether instead of making them playable...which sucks because even though naut ganks don't have as much kill potential, he is a force to be reckoned with in any team comp but now he has no way to get there w.o breaking the meta

Nebuul11/20/2014, 5:39:12 PM4 votes

I wonder if they could do something like make skill-based damage shields take half-damage from monsters?

Kingsgrave11/20/2014, 6:28:21 PM4 votes

Sejuani doesn't actually do that bad in the jungle compared to anyone else.

Naut however can't clear a single camp on his own.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfUyyEBnRlU

What Is Smite11/20/2014, 8:52:28 PM3 votes

To be honest I believe that the jungle needs to be tuned down a bit for junglers to thrive in it since many season 4 junglers now have glaring issues with the new jungle, several fighters sustain that allowed them to stay in the jungle for their first clear now have to back after a 1/2-3/4 clear and many junglers are around 40% health when they gank with the new jungle, but im pretty sure the jungling community prefers to be at 60-75% health if not more for their first gank so that they are not just giving away free kills. Also the assist gold needs to re-tuned since most jungler rely on the assist gold to get their items, well with the slight nerf to assists then what is the point in helping my teammates when I can get my items faster by farming the jungle? I know it seems like I'm being blind/stupid about the jungle changes and how it affects the jungler pool, but honestly if I as a jungler can't get the gold/items I need to help my team then I am just an anchor dragging them down with me.

Malix Farwin11/21/2014, 12:52:24 PM3 votes

Dont think Riot will care until it effects flashy junglers(Le sin) because of LCS. Honestly instead of promoting diversity like they said, it is only making it less diverse. Hell anytime you have to buff a jungler(Evelynn) specifically because of the jungle change that should tell you something.

The Whamboozler11/21/2014, 4:07:04 AM2 votes

I played a game as Nocturne and it was pretty terrible too, so it's not tanks specifically. His meager sustain didn't seem to help much. I got blue, wolves, chickens and red and then had to back at level 3 with barely enough gold to buy skirmisher. Upon returning to jungle, I found that the enemy Udyr had set up shop and he spent the entire rest of the game ganking and clearing my jungle while I fell further and further behind. Now I'm sure I got outplayed, but having to back so soon with so little money HURTS. I felt useless all game. I'm guessing a lot of junglers feel that way now.

Silents42911/20/2014, 10:19:55 PM2 votes

I tried the jungle once last night an hour after the servers came up, I played as Maokai, couldn't gank at level 2, and when I got my red, I was too low to gank at level 3, So I went back got my second jungling item, And well. Nothing else, Can't afford anything else.

By the time I got near a lane my blue buff was gone already, and the laners were ahead of me more so then they were in season 4. By my first gank my red buff was already half way out, and my blue was gone. I have never felt so weak in the jungle before, I felt like I had no power the entire game.

I want to say to all my fellow jungle mains, that all these problems can be solved in time, we are trying to find what works still when it comes to when to gank, clearing etc. I feel like we should just wait, its only a matter of time someone has a perfect rune/mastery/item combo that makes the clearing bearable on some of the junglers (Nautilus main)

Of course I won't deny Riot needs to tweak some things, They made it hard for a jungler to get any gold now, Assist gold being lower, minions giving less experience if your a higher level then them, Jungling clearing taking forever even late game on a lot of junglers, in comparison to just getting a creep wave.

What I don't get is why we can't have the jungle camps be easier to kill anymore?

A Flock Of Teemo11/21/2014, 4:18:47 AM2 votes

IMO jungle is way too much dmg now, lvl 11 lee sin maxing shield with 150 armor took 560 dmg from wtraiths...and a full clear with 1 successful gank still puts you 1 level behind everyone on your team.

Jungle Lux God11/21/2014, 8:23:50 PM2 votes

Personally, I haven't been having too much trouble in the new jungle as Nautilus, but that is because I go balls deep into the defensive mastery tree. The new jungle also favors him slightly more than the old one as well because a lot of junglers that used to be able to bully him out of the jungle early don't really have the health after one or two clears to bully him out.

Also, I have only had problems on my first clear. After that first clear I've been good to go in terms of clearing times for the rest of the game.

Samflash311/20/2014, 7:22:20 PM1 votes

But...Sejuani had built in defense. Not much, but she has it.

Malix Farwin11/21/2014, 12:55:00 PM1 votes

The big concern here is that by the time you buff their base abilities/stats to be viable in the jungle they will mostly likely become too dominant elsewhere(top/support),like maokai did.

I don't think either champion is much of a risk of that. They're really useless solo laners and I have a hard time imagining either kit being as good as Leona's for the support role. Maokai is strong in a solo lane because his passive is pretty amazing when you're always around others.

That said, such an outcome is not so bad. You just retune for their new role. Happened with Annie Evelynn Diana Elise Karma Lulu Maokai Morgana Quinn MonkeyKing Zyra and probably some others I'm forgetting.

P.S Did they just change zyra's recommend items to that of a support?

I really want to like Zyra, but I just can't make her work right now. If anything, she seems stronger mid in preseason.

At the very least i can tell that there was no retuning done for quite a bit of those champs, just flat out nerfs.

FrozenIndustry11/25/2014, 4:44:22 PM1 votes

Welp, I tried in the preseason FAQ, but still no acknowledgement from the Reds.

I'm quite concerned about the Sejuani PBE changes as well. I like that they're shifting more focus onto her currently worthless W, but the rest of her kit suffers greatly from it (Reduced slow duration? Really?) and it does almost nothing to alleviate her early game clear troubles.

FantasySniper11/22/2014, 1:26:16 AM1 votes

What has been tried?

It seems to me that starting Golems or at least smiting the Gromp for your first clear would be how to best deal with with a bad start.

If that isn't good enough, then they are in dire straits.

Killer X 1211/20/2014, 8:24:14 PM1 votes

I think they have trouble balancing the jungle for tanks when right now mumu can 100 to 0 your mid laner alone after smiting the right camp. Buffing the tank items will make champs like mumu stronger. Buffing Naut and Sej themselves (in any fashion besides damage done directly to monsters) would allow them back into solo lanes which riot doesn't want. Its a tough situation...but yea i'd love to be able to sej jungle again. This new shit isn't friendly to her.

Yfrappefort11/22/2014, 5:19:46 AM1 votes

It seems Sejuani is getting some buffs on PBE soon from what I heard. I hope it will be the same for Nautilus!