Why has Ryze been reworked so many times?

HarrowR·4/21/2018, 1:35:20 PM·17 votes·18,927 views

Does anyone know why has Ryze seen so many changes to his kit over the years,it's odd how they can't seem to find the time to rework Mordekaiser or Aatrox who are basically unplayable,yet they reworked Ryze so many times,and i think another rework is coming soon for him?

Also why did they change his old ult,it felt so much better to use it and go ham,this new ult is seldom used properly,it usually gets used just to cut someone off,or even better to teleport you whole team in place for a wombo combo that loses you the game

28 Comments

FyreWall4/21/2018, 1:53:36 PM43 votes

Because faker plays ryze and not mordekaiser.

BeatzBoyFTW4/21/2018, 1:38:57 PM16 votes

it felt so much better to use it and go ham

THAT was the problem. You just click R, throw E in a teamfight, and you're already doing a nonsense shit-ton of damage. The changes was highly needed.

Current ult was "seldom used" since soloQ players have literally close to 0 clue on how to use it, nonetheless, it was a highly impactful ultimate in pro-plays.

hhaavviikk4/21/2018, 8:40:51 PM10 votes

because they refuse to get rid of his point & click root for some unknown bloody reason

Wild Geese4/21/2018, 9:34:24 PM10 votes

Maybe Ryze being the alias of the CEO of Riot Games might have something to do with it.

FilDaFunk4/21/2018, 8:42:32 PM7 votes

Because they want to keep 3 things: Point and click root Cooldown on q resetting Great AoE

The drawback to Ryze is meant to be his short range, but if he gets close he should be able to output lots of damage. Think juggernaut mage. Previously, he had to use his ultimate to waveclear efficiently (so pre6 wasn't all that good). I think they should reduce his AoE potential to make him have clear drawbacks.

driftedmind4/21/2018, 1:50:49 PM7 votes

I miss fiora ulty.. such skill and grace.

TempName548464/21/2018, 8:22:46 PM6 votes

aatrox is unplayable

lmao

Fondling Gems4/21/2018, 10:41:46 PM3 votes

Riot doesn't rework based solely on priority, they also rework based on the scope of the project and whether or not they have some ideas for what they want to do with the champion.

For example lets compare the Fiora rework to the Yorick one. Yorick was a far larger issue and had been for far longer, however Riot was less sure of what they wanted to do for Yorick. Was he a minionmancer? Was he some sort of necromancer? Did base him around his actual gameplay of a bruiser with heavy lane dominance and sustain? On top of that if they were preserving his undead that meant he would require far more assets than most champions, which means far more work (Models, Textures, Animations, Ability FX, Sound FX, possible VO)

On the other hand Riot had a very clear idea of what Fiora was meant to be, the grand duelist, as such they had a far easier time figuring out what they wanted to do with her, and she required far fewer assets.

Now lets look at the 3 you mentioned: Morde, Aatrox, and Ryze.

Morde suffers from many of the issues Yorick did. He has a number of paths that he can be taken down, if they plan to keep his whole necromancer shtick then he will most likely take a ton of extra assets, he isn't popular, and a partial rework wont cut it by any means. Thus he is going to take a ton of work and needs to be completely rebuilt from the ground up.

Aatrox is in a slightly better state. First of all his current gameplay state isn't actually bad. In fact thanks to his mini-rework he is probably in the best state he has ever been. The reason he is currently being reworked over Morde is because he is a much smaller scope rework. While he will be getting some things like a new VO to match his new kit/lore, his overall work is going to be very low for a VGU. Part of the reason Riot put him off was because they were deciding which of two paths to take him down, the Bloodthirsty god his gameplay/visuals screamed or the god who commands and inspires warriors like his lore portrayed him as.

Ryze. Currently his 6th? rework is in progress. Why? Well first of all it is because Riot knows Ryze's theme. He is the machine gun mage. Short range, some CC, etc. They also have his lore and personality pinned down. Also going to clear up some things about his reworks. Keep in mind his first three reworks were back in season 1. His 4th rework was in 5.8, and was somewhat of a hold over one, like how Aatrox got a mini hold over rework. It was also to help his visuals a bit, no model update, but his skins did get texture updates. Which takes us to the 5th rework, the big one that we are currently sitting on. Unlike his other reworks (GU) this was a full VGU update and was done to try and bring both his kit and visuals up to modern league standards. Unfortunately is has proven to be difficult to balance between high and low tier play.

Whereas Morde and Aatrox can be played at low tiers (aka in over half of all games) Ryze has to have so much power sucked out of his kit that he is only viable in high tiers where team coordination makes up for it. Even then though he rarely gets played in normal league, and really only gets played in pro games where everyone is in voice chat. This means that whereas Morde and Aatrox can be played with success in most league games, Ryze cannot. Also keep in mind that this "rework" is no more than one of the many small ones that have been cropping up recently, such as the Ahri one. They don't use new assets, they are purely mechanic changes to existing abilities to help shift the champion's power around (which is different from buffs/nerfs which change the values of abilities.)

Basically Ryze's 6th rework is not actually delaying Morde/Aatrox's reworks in any way, it is something Riot is doing to help a champion with major issues fit into league, and I would guess that like the Ahri changes it is pretty much entirely the work of a single person, rather than a whole team like actual GU/VGUs.

Brain Errör 4044/21/2018, 8:54:40 PM2 votes

It's obvious. They're keeping their boss happy so they get a pay cheque at the end of every week. Is it really that hard to grasp?

Aptest4/21/2018, 2:15:56 PM2 votes

Because the concept of a full tank champion with assassin level burst and carry level DPS, good in-fight sustain and AOE, and range that is bigger than all ADCs, and in addition to that a point and click 2 second root that comes up every 4 seconds (was it 4, or 6, on old ryze?), was a bit of a problem?

And since we're not moving far enough away from this original concept, it still is?

Marshbouy4/21/2018, 7:01:46 PM2 votes

The point and click nature of his kit (his root especially) is insane in high elo. For example, on his old kit he could lock down a target for about 3 seconds with no problem at all. There was 0 counterplay except "don't stand in range" because it is instant CC.

They are going to change this part of his kit in the future which will hopefully fix him.

Champions like Aatrox and Mordekaiser struggle to find an identity. They don't really know what they want to do with either of them, but Ryze is more solidified. It's just the execution of his identity that is an issue.

Also, Ryze is either gutted to the point of unplayability or dominating LCS play. Neither is healthy for a champion, so they have to keep changing him. Mordekaiser and Aatrox, while not doing well can still function for most players and are not even relevant in LCS, so they aren't as large of problems.

Lady Hammerlock4/22/2018, 3:20:47 AM2 votes

As for Mordekaiser, the Malicious god has stated himself many times that you should just take Morde mid, bc you have better match ups, most mages are incapable of matching you in terms of wave clear(so as long as you don't pick it into Anivia Ryze Cassiopeia you should be fine), and you just shove them undertower constantly that you eventually build up a lead purely out of missed CS

Aatrox unplayable? tf, he's been playable every since conqueror was released.

AirKingNeo4/21/2018, 8:08:39 PM1 votes

because they can't ever land on the right numbers for mana based damage with spell spam

also the clickshot root.

Wolfalisk3184/21/2018, 8:04:34 PM1 votes

Every iteration of Ryze I have seen was him exploding people in 1.5 seconds while being an un-killable tank with very little AP from items.

Waaaaay back in the day when we had original Ryze, I'd take him Mid with a FULL mana Rune Page and I'd win every lane handily, and I'm not even good. People were taking ADC's Mid at this time, and for example a Level 1 Ryze Q with a full mana page and Sapphire Crystal was 25-30% of Vayne's health. At Level 2 if my opponent was still in lane, if they had less than 85% health, I would Flash (if necessary), QWQ, Ignite (if necessary) for easy First Blood.

There was no surviving it back then. While I don't play Ryze at all anymore, while I don't think the aforementioned is possible anymore, he doesn't seem any less stupidly strong.

Vanjie4/21/2018, 10:43:46 PM1 votes

They are trying to make a kit and identity work with him that hasn't since day one. He is just a champion that is not working out period. They said this is the last time but they said that two years ago and look what they are doing. He will be reworked and receive a VGU every couple years. Who cares at this point. They don't care about the problem champs.

Teridax684/22/2018, 12:16:06 AM1 votes

To answer the question directly, Ryze himself is a champion with very weird restrictions and iconic features, all of which make him very difficult to get right. He's a spammy mage with point-and-click hard CC, plus some durability and movement speed, all of which are rare features in themselves (the latter two are on mages, anyway), and which are especially tricky in combination because, if done wrong, he can become far too reliable and ends up making play extremely frustrating for his opponent. So far, he has yet to be truly done right, and continues to have a pattern where he's unnecessarily weak at low levels of mastery, but nonetheless a competitive monster, a problem made worse with his new ult. When his previous rework hit, it was essentially a given that he would receive at least one more in the future.

As to the question of why Ryze has been receiving so much focus compared to champions in much greater need of attention, I feel the problem boils down to just Rioters being people with their own preferences. It's clear there's at least one person at Riot who cares deeply about Ryze, and who is in a position where they get to secure development resources to do work on him, even if it's not going to work out. By contrast, it seems less likely that the situation is the same for champions like Lissandra, Sejuani, Quinn, etc., who could similarly benefit from changes to a few of their abilities, but who are mostly left in the dust until the Boards stamp their feet loud enough to get someone to look at them.

Aatrox and Mordekaiser I feel are in a different territory entirely, where they deserve a full VGU rather than just a smaller kit rework, but even then I can't help but feel like Riot doesn't quite understand what it is about Aatrox that interests people. Literal dozens of people have been clamoring for him to be built around the fantasy of a warlord who inspires bloodlust among armies, and so many times over years now, yet apparently whoever is working on his VGU interpreted that as "greatsword duelist that relentlessly pursues his foes", a fantasy that has no real bearing on Aatrox's current playstyle or lore, and that is far too similar to the fantasy of dozens of other fighters who are also relentless duelists. I think it kind of makes itself felt when a designer isn't really in tune with the champion they're working on, and the composition of people on the design teams are likely the reason why certain specific champions receive much more attention than others.

SociopathFriend4/22/2018, 2:58:30 AM1 votes

Because he's one of the faces of League? And so getting him right is more important?

Villainous V4/22/2018, 4:48:39 PM1 votes

I'm pretty sure that removing his point and click root, and his mana scaling so he cant go off tank and still hurt would be a great start.

Snowman Arc4/22/2018, 1:08:17 PM1 votes

Patch 5.12 Ryze was the best Ryze.

Saianna4/22/2018, 2:44:49 PM1 votes

Because Rito really wants machinegun ryze over actually balanced ryze in his super old days.

jocomotion4/22/2018, 2:59:44 PM1 votes

Mordekaiser : Riot has been open in saying the only reason they haven’t reworked him is because they don’t know what to do with him or make him into. Aatrox : For a long time they gave up on balancing him, recently they’ve been getting better at it (he’s not unplayable, he’s actually pretty powerful now) but they didn’t know what to do with him either for a while. Recently they must’ve hit a breakthrough Ryze : they’re stubbornly trying to make this “machine gun mage” archetype to work, but fail to realize it won’t as long as high elo and low elo play are so vastly separated.

FrostQueensPlane4/22/2018, 3:40:16 PM1 votes

Because riot thinks anyone will care about their garbage competitive when everyones quit the game.

Linna Excel4/21/2018, 8:10:24 PM1 votes

I think the core concept he's built around just can't be properly balanced.