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Greater Stealth Totem overshadows Sightstone in almost every way.

NaClBattery·May 23, 2015·76 votes·6,408 views

See Title.

Currently, Sightstone costs 800 gold (health makes it 50% cost efficient), holds 4 charges, and player must be in the fountain to recharge.

Greater Stealth Totem, purchasable at level 9 for 250 gold, can hold two 3-minute totems, with a 60 second recharge time.

I main support, and do see the value of an early Sightstone in laning phase, but as the game progresses, it feels as if it falls off heavily. I often drop 2-3 wards during a Siege or prepping an objective. Meaning I'll have 1 left without having to recall. While people with an upgraded trinket can merely wait 60 seconds (which is about the time to recall, and walk to T2 turrets) for an extra charge. Not only that, but the recharge is faster than the ward's duration. You can drop 2, wait and drop another 2 before the first totem even comes close to expiring. But as a support, the Sweeper Lens is far too valuable not to take, which forces me into carrying around an unoptimal item.

I also understand that having a higher cap on wards is valuable (such as Ward Wars) dropping one right after the area was cleared. But, the Sightstone was a solution to a S3 problem. Supports, who were burdened with vision control. using all their gold income on wards by creating a Nearly limitless pool of wards. But I think it's time to rethink the item to bring it up to date.

Maybe adding some more stats to it (CDR, GP5, Health Regen), increasing the ward cap (4 stealth wards for sightstone, 5 for ruby sightstone.) or just having a recharge system, either by time, or gains a charge on Kills/assists or even clearing an enemy ward can give a charge. Again, I just want to bring the item in line with something that feels worthy of taking up an inventory slot, and not be outshined for a trinket.

TL:DR: Why is the upgraded Yellow just trink so much better than the sightstone. Can we buff sightstone to not feel like an inadequate trinket?

88 Comments

Only Play DariusMay 23, 201528 votes

Well you buy SS as support so you can go item 3364 for your trinket and still not have to buy wards.

NaClBatteryMay 23, 201518 votes

I understand that completely, I think the Sweeper/Oracle Lens are invaluable as a support. Denying the enemy vision, esp of high value objectives in the late game is incredibly strong.

But my gripes aren't with Oracle lens or the Greater Stealth totem, as I think both items are as strong as they need to be. My issue is that the Sightstone is showing it's age. Again, it was created in a time where 1) Supports had no gold income outside Philo Stone/GP5 Quints and 2) when Supports were expected to ward the entire map as there was no cap.

but now, there is a 3 ward cap, Pinks are limited to 1 and are visible. So item's like Sightstone are just from a different age. I can't unload all 4 and B back after a deep push. or, just tossing one in the baron pit to check without despawning a ward a possibly more critical location. That's my issue with it. It just feels underwhelming, underpowered, and to make it worse, it's nearly mandatory on supports. So it's as if supports are walking with 5 item slots and two trinket slots, instead of the 6 everyone else has.

It's why I want to make sightstone a bit more powerful, as it doesn't need to be appealing for supports to build it, because, as I said, it's mandatory. Just a slight reward, or utility-centric perk.

Only Play DariusMay 23, 20159 votes

Yea I agree, SS is a necessary yet outdated support item. It could use some QOL buffs at the very least.

B1naryB0tMay 23, 20151 votes

Unfortunately, if you buff it, suddenly everyone gets it. People may have ignored trinkets, but a buff to SS? 4/5 people on the team will have the OPness.

Ryuku CruxisMay 23, 20151 votes

It'll still be bad for carries to have, they need their damage, and can upgrade trink anyway.

SS could use a recharge time of 1m as well, I feel that might be enough. If more was desired, I feel a good unique passive for the ruby SS would be to allow 4 stealth wards instead of 3, but that might buff it to what people would fear, everyone getting it cause vision really is op.

Aych PiiMay 24, 20151 votes

Eh, I rarely see a carry who keeps three wards out at a time, and it wouldn't really be worth it to a carry to sacrifice an item slot of damage for one more ward anyways.

AkesgerothMay 24, 20155 votes

As long as they don't buff it into yet another CDR item. Supports already have too many CDR items, they don't need another.

BombkirbyMay 23, 20151 votes

I'd be fine if the trinket replaces SS. Frees up an item slot. There's nothing compelling about being forced to buy the same item every game. Especially since supports have so much lenience with their builds compared to other roles.

NaClBatteryMay 23, 20151 votes

....uhm, I will apprehensively disagree with you there. Most of my support builds usually have 5 out of 6 slots spoken for barring being against a very nontraditional comp. Sightstone, Boots, Locket, GP5 Item, and Chalice Upgrade. The 6th item I rarely get to build, but it usually defaults to Frozen Heart, Randuins, Ardent Censor, or Twin Shadows, but again, I usually don't get that much gold. I often put off building a 6 item just to have a slot for the pink ward. But that just might be my personal preference as I really focus on utility and what's best for the team.

GinoSoldierMay 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

....uhm, I will apprehensively disagree with you there. Most of my support builds usually have 5 out of 6 slots spoken for barring being against a very nontraditional comp. Sightstone, Boots, Locket, GP5 Item, and Chalice Upgrade. The 6th item I rarely get to build, but it usually defaults to Frozen Heart, Randuins, Ardent Censor, or Twin Shadows, but again, I usually don't get that much gold. I often put off building a 6 item just to have a slot for the pink ward. But that just might be my personal preference as I really focus on utility and what's best for the team.

Chalice can (should, because of health regen denial) be replaced by a Morello, Randuins, Frozen Heart and Locket have no place on a mage support (still great on a tank support), GP5 item (especially FQC can be sold late game, by then i can usually sell it at a profit.) Twin Shadows can be replaced with Lich's Bane or Iceborn Gauntlets, Sightstone can (to a degree, on tank supports) be replaced by Cinderhulk/Chilling Smite and it's two dozen supportive applications.

Instead of getting Red trinket, get Yellow, and smite Raptors on your way to objectives, allowing you a free item slot in the end. Up until lvl 9, buy sightstones as needed, it'll still cost less than 800 gold.

I'm not saying it necessarily works at high elo, but at low elo 9/10 you'll find no more than three wards with that red trinket per game.

Aych PiiMay 24, 20154 votes

Nothing worse than hitting super late game as a support and realizing that your trinket slot is serving you more efficiently than the inventory slot you have to keep your sightstone in. Plus, ruby sightstone feels like a noobtrap item for people who don't play supoprt but are used to just finishing anything they get before ever building parts to anything else.

lightdragoon88May 23, 20152 votes

That is the main reason right now for sightstone.

Lost RMay 23, 20158 votes

I meant to post a similar thread yesterday.

Yes, the Sightstone needs to be adjusted in light of the trinkets. I've consistently been able to hit the cap on wards with the greater stealth totem alone. The only thing you're limited by is time and the ward limit. The Sightstone only alleviates the time part by giving you wards in absolute abundance, but you still have to contend with the ceiling at the cost of one item slot.

Almost every solution you could throw at this problem regarding the wards themselves unfortunately runs the risk of reverting back to a state where the supports invest their entire life savings into wards, and that's on top of everything else they have to do now. If everyone was warding diligently (assuming everyone went with the GST), you could have 15 wards on the map; imagine how much vision you'd have, but if they aren't the support, most people simply don't. This has to do with the heavy climate of Someone Else's Problem not just in League but seemingly in the entirety of humanity itself, but that's a scope and social discussion better suited elsewhere. In League, among many other problematic mindsets and mentalities that SEP has let fester, the support is still seen as the be all end all to warding, but three wards doesn't attribute to much in the grand scheme of things, and the support can't exactly run around the entire map to update the wards on every strategic point. At best, he's going to have vision control over one quadrant, or one fourth of the map, and usually one of the two on the enemy's side of the map. To take up one whole item slot, the Sightstone should have something over the trinkets and namely the GST, and the only thing it can really have is the unique passive or better stats in general, and no, 400 extra health doesn't count, especially for the support mages.

The thing is, it's not exactly an item geared towards the strengths of a support like the support items or the Ardent Censer are. A tank is going to invest in other items to build up their defense, and mages are going to invest in items with cooldown reduction, mana, mana regen, movement speed bonus and AP, generally in that order. With the new ward limit, it's not like we're going to see another ward war any time soon, and since it's basically seen as a support item already, then it's time it receives some support-based bonuses.

NaClBatteryMay 23, 20152 votes

This issue is how to make it geared to a support without it bleeding into other lanes/positions.

When Relic Shield first came out, there was a duo top meta for a little bit. The old Jungle items (Spirit Stones) became very appealing for laners, esp. Elder Lizard.

And Ardent Censor is not the best of examples. I rarely, if ever, use that item. It's a nice AS steroid on heal, but you're also constrained by your own mana and CDs, and often time, shields and heals are single target. The only person I consistently build it on is Nami, and even then it's a luxury item more than anything.

If you give it AP, then Midlaners or AP Junglers might want it, Armor/MR+Health, then the tanky heroes might start drawing to it. I've thought up a few unique passives it can have. One being a longer range on the ability to cast, or possibly giving wards from the SightStone slightly more range of vision. or maybe even a built in "Raptor Smite" detection. when you get close to an enemy ward (like a 1-2 min CD from it's procs) Another Idea is to have "Enchanments" like the jungle item to suit the Support's playstyle. A support Vel'koz, Annie, and Zyra can take Magus, while a tankier support can get a boost to health, or a sort of Ninja Tabi passive that reduces AA damage. (I will not condone or support a cinderhulk support meta!)

But even then, would it really be that bad if everyone carried a sightstone because it's so cost effective? I mean, again, people get the Trinkets at 9 for 250 gold, which pretty much serves the same purpose.

Lost RMay 23, 20152 votes

People don't base their purchases on how cost-effective the item is; people don't buy the Hourglass because it's cheap. People buy the items because of their unique passive first, stats second, and cost efficiency a distant third.

The utility of the Censer takes a hit when you realize that not a lot of champions have a multi-target shield/heal; only Lux, Janna, Alistar, Soraka because of her heal's very low cooldown, in a very specific scenario Nami and until recently Thresh. The thing is, the Censer only truly benefits the ADC, since they're the only consistently present DPS guy in the queue. Rarely are you in a position to figure which champion is using their basic attacks more frequently (assuming you're even in a scenario that allows you to hold this inner monologue). The Censer doesn't have particularly good stats, and because of its extremely specific and limited passive, there's no worry that Orianna is suddenly going to pick up the Censer if she's mid.

My point is, if you want to deter the usefulness or popularity of the item exceeding its designated boundaries, then the passives and stats have to be non-applicable or unappealing to the non-specified role. The reason Cinderhulk became so popular outside the jungle recently was because of the stronger fire aura and bonus max HP for the champions that capitalize on that sort of thing. It's been changed now so that it's still a great item for tank junglers, but a lot less viable than Sunfire Cape for the nons.

Nameless VoiceMay 23, 20151 votes

Karma Sona also have AoE shields.

NaClBatteryMay 23, 20151 votes

It's not a matter of who can utilize it best, but that the item just isn't very good.

Looking at the stats; AP, Mana Regen, CDR, and Move speed, it's not really great for most supports that can utilize it.

Most supports can cap out on CDR from 1 or 2 items (Often the GP5 Item and Athene's/Morello, or CDR boots if you lean that way.) They get plenty of mana regen mid to late game (Again from GP5 item, and a Chalice, which can be built into Athene's or Mikael's) and get plenty of passive move speed from masteries and even Mobi boots. AP is not a desired stat on most supports that benefit from it. Usually an AP item is last and is a "Luxury" item. I usually go a bit tankier (Aegis, Frozen Heart) before even considering an AP Item. An even then there are ones that are either more cost efficient, more powerful, or bring more utility (Like Twin Shadows or Banner of Command. Even Zeke's Herald I would consider a better item/buy despite not using AD as a support, as Lifesteal is harder to come by and most everyone can benefit from a flat AD boost.)

Lastly, most champions/teammates don't benefit from Attack Speed (AP Carries, Tanks, AD Casters.) It's almost only great for ADCs, Diana, Kayle and.... I don't know, Teemo?

I had hopes for the Item, I thought it was great on Thresh before the shield nerf. I can see some synergy with support Karma and Janna (AD Steroid and AS steroid on your ADC is great) but it just falls short. However, I do still use it on Nami quite often, as it works well with my E on the ADC (Heal, Drop E) it allows them to kite and get the 3 bubble shots/slow a lot faster, and with her low CDs (6 seconds on W and E) you can give 1 or 2 people a perma AS boost and have them slowed 50% of the time. Hell, I'll even use it on myself to kite better.

I've done weird builds, and had infatuation with oddball items trying to make them work on champs they're not designed for (Singed with Banner of Command, Tank Soraka, Karthus with Righteous Glory, Iceborn Gauntlet Nami) but unlike champions, I do think there are some items that are just terrible and shouldn't be picked up. or at the very least, be put on a low priority status, after your Core is done, you just happen to have an extra 3K lying around and your team doesn't need anymore "support" items (I consider Black Cleaver, Frozen Heart and Sunfire cape these as well, as they help the team out)

SpecterVonBarenMay 24, 20151 votes

"Lastly, most champions/teammates don't benefit from Attack Speed (AP Carries, Tanks, AD Casters.) It's almost only great for ADCs, Diana, Kayle and.... I don't know, Teemo?"

Diving into a whole other issue. Riot really needs to do something to make AP auto attack based champs actually worthwhile. The only champion in the whole game that consistently buys Nashors for instance, is Kayle. Anyone else that COULD buy Nashors, Teemo, Diana, or Azir, don't buy it at high levels of play. Diana doesn't get it because there's no realistic way for her to actually wail on someone long enough to make a DPS build worthwhile because she'll just get blown up. Teemo, even though he's ranged, will also just get blown up if he tries to focus on autoing someone.

Then there are their kit specific issues with going AP Attack Speed. Teemo's E only refreshes the duration of the poison for each application, and while Diana's passive has a ridiculously high scaling, her attack speed growth is terrible. And then while Azir, as many have pointed out, can buy Nashor's for tons of gold efficiency, people don't really like buying it on him because he doesn't use the passive with his soldiers.

This is not even taking into account that AP auto attackers get nothing to improve their auto's other than AP, they can't get lifesteal from their auto's, and their magic damage can't crit. Ugh...

SyndrarellaMay 23, 20154 votes

[deleted]

XonraMay 23, 20152 votes

{quoted}

On a solo lane I often outward most supports who carry sightstone with the greater stealth totem alone. Exceptions to that are when I must always have a pink against stealthy opponents so I get greater vision totem instead.

The biggest issue with sightstone is that it requires trips back to the fountain to recharge, while the greater stealth totem will always have at least 1-2 wards up at all times. I think a reasonable buff to sightstone or its upgrade should be wards regained over time in addition to refill on returns so it can match the utility of the vastly cheaper greater stealth totem.

I usually out ward my support when I play top, because I upgrade my yellow. Having two wards in top pretty much means you are ridiculously safe unless you get some awkward tower diving going on. Having that after laning phase means you can get one pink and lock down the top side almost without the supports help.

As someone who plays a lot of support, if I didn't need the sweeping lens so damn much (cause solo queue junglers refuse to buy it to help), then I'd be damn tempted to get the upgraded yellow as well, or at worst the pink version with sightstone.

MartyrofsandMay 23, 20154 votes

Perhaps they should give sightstone the boots treatment via enchantments. Once you habe a ruby sightstone you could enchant it with any number of possible options, anything from recharging out in the field to "stealing wards" IE you kill one you get one, perhaps even give it more than 5 wards.

To me that seems like the most logical way of updating sightstone without completely remaking the item and its components.

ArveanorMay 24, 20154 votes

Would increased placement range and/or increased move speed work out? Both of these would be great little boosts to some things supports tend to like without making it needed for everyone.

NaClBatteryMay 24, 20151 votes

Uhm, sure?

I'm not a game designer, or have any idea into Riot's philosophy or approach to balance. I mean there are 16 different jungle item combinations and LeBlanc is still a thing, so I don't think they know what they're doing as well.

But yeah, I would love a range increase and maybe a MobiBoots style passive that increases move speed out of combat. Or maybe a Raptor Cloak style passive that increases speed moving toward your wards if not in combat. Cover a lot more ground, but it can lead to some cheesing I think

ArveanorMay 24, 20151 votes

I mean, I hate leblanc as much as the next guy, but her winrate is... oddly low, so meh.

But a bit of extra movespeed would be kinda nice..

NaClBatteryMay 24, 20152 votes

Eh, I actually think there are champs who cause a lot more problems than LeBlanc, but she's my go to example. I think a highly mobile burst mage that takes very little risk to assassinate a target is kind of BS.

But I'm going to embrace my digression here. The last 6 champions out of 8 Champions they released have had some sort of double passive (Bard, Kalista, Gnar, Azir, Yasou, Reksai) They each have great mobility, CC, Utility, and with the exception of Bard, all do crazy damage. Their kits are just overloaded.

Compare them to similar roles from champs released 2 or 3 years ago, and they just pale in comparison. Why pick Miss Fortune who's passive is 30 extra move speed if she doesn't take damage, compared to Kalista's goddamn hopping. Compare Yasou to Talon, or Rek'sai to Nocturne or Skarner, and you kind of see that they just aren't as good. Hell, when's the last time you saw a Taric? A 1.2 second stun just isn't good enough with all the gap closers, CC, and burst damage to peel or engage anymore.

Also, back to my point, items that were introduced into the game 2-3 years ago, just don't hold up today. Sightstone being one of them (Guinsoo's Rageblade, Zeke's Herald, and Muramana being others)

ArveanorMay 25, 20151 votes

quite the digression there, huh. I just want movespeed on sightstone, ok? :p

Blazing TenshiMay 24, 20153 votes

Spam wards on your spawn pool, trinket can't do that.

AnomalousChimeraMay 23, 20152 votes

I created a similar thread about this a few months ago.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/Hw6Y8yWX-riot-give-sightstone-some-compensation

I agree completely about how it makes no sense for the upgraded yellow trinket to be that much superior to Sightstone.

I am not asking for huge compensation. What I want is for Sightstone to generate a charge every 4 (or 5) minutes (max charges still 4 and 5 for Sightstone and Ruby Sightstone respectively) and to have the charge generation not be reset upon recall. So if I generated half a charge before completing a recall, I expect it continue to generate the next charge. If I wait three minutes after that before placing down one ward (hypothetical nonsense scenaro), I would expect to have 4 charges (Expend one. Gain one).

Krys StarMay 23, 20152 votes

I kind of wish the last mastery in Utility focused on Sightstone. Maybe make it half price, or... something. I don't know... +20 movement outside of combat next patch is meh. I'd prefer Sightstone mastery.

NaClBatteryMay 23, 20152 votes

The Utility tree is all sorts of goofed up. I don't ever get Blue or Red Buff, I don't know what I would do with 3% Lifesteal and Spellvamp, And the "Stregnth of spirit" is just dumb, A Frozen Heart will give me 1.3 extra HP5... yay While an Aegis, Righteous, and Raptor Cloak (It's a good Item, I swear!) all give more and useful combat stats.

ecneregillebMay 23, 20152 votes

I support the idea of tweaking Sight Stone to bring it up to date and feel like less of an aged item. I've always felt like Greater Stealth Totem was more cost efficient and easier to utilize since its price dropped to 250g; I never really thought about it until you pointed it out, however, that Sight Stone's existence was to solve S3 vision issues for supports, and at the time it was amazing! This is important because compared to the League of Legends we have today, it's very much an evolved game. Sight Stone seems a bit over-ripe.

I've seen a very abundant amount of discussions and posts with either suggestions or cries for love for Sight Stone over the past few weeks. I can't say I lean one way or the other when it comes to any particular suggestion though...

I will say what I know though: Riot has stated that the cost of Ruby Sight Stone is as high as it is to gate the cost efficiency of it super high, so people aren't tempted to rush it by any means. It's meant to be a late-game "upgrade" when you are basically at full build. Although at the time I totally agreed with that, the fact remains that at this point now with Greater Stealth Totem existing and being as cost efficient as it is for the same purpose while not taking an item slot, and the allowance of a Sweeper to be on the same character does not validate the effective power level of the item slot being occupied by a Sight Stone. Obviously with 0 alternatives for Sweeping&Warding to be on the same character, the argument of "that's where it's power-level is defined" resides. That seems lame to me. The power-level of an item is defined by it's ability to let a different item exist on a kit?

The cost is very high; yes you can get it earlier than you can get Greater Stealth Totem, sure it gives minor amount of health (arguably decent in terms of early, early lane phase, and that's only if you get kills really early in the game to grab the item quickly) but for 800g you are given time-constraint convenience, and I suppose early vision for your lane safety. Ouch.

BorfinMay 24, 20152 votes

If its competition was not a rechargeable pink I would buy it more.

DengedenMay 24, 20152 votes

I can't deal with all these people who don't watch LCS. It feels real awkward when you're the only person who wastes their time :^)

The point is, competitive junglers get Sightstone more often than not. They're deliberately giving up stats to provide vision for their team. Buffing SS would go against that idea. Not that you couldn't combo SS with the GP/10 items but flat out buffing the item wouldn't work (in terms of helping out supports alone).

Not that I don't agree that vision denial is fairly unimportant in SoloQ (for the solo laners and the AD, that is).

NaClBatteryMay 24, 20153 votes

That's because most teams runs triple sweeper as denial weighs more. There is only 1 item in the game to spot and disable wards, not including the Raptor Smite Buff, and that's the Sweeping lens (Pinks don't disable wards, there's a reason why you Sweep, clear, then drop the pink instead of using the pink to help clear) They also only usually get Sightstone if they're going cinderhulk, as the item becomes more cost efficient with the stacking health.

And buffing stats is more of a secondary option, I've stated several times I'd rather just have it gain charges, either with time, or if a condition is met (Like clearing a ward or on assists or kills)

And I just want to point out that LCS Pro Strats and Solo Queue are two radically different things. Granted, you do need to take balance into account and the chances that it can be abused. It's why Pros often pick the champs, items and strats that have as little counterplay as possible (Solo Lane Soraka) because they're getting paid to win, and use every advantage they can get.

DengedenMay 24, 20151 votes

Unless I'm very much mistaken, the only jungler in the Warrior meta that never got SS was Vi. J4, Rek'sai and Lee (duh) all (on occasion) bought it back then.

Even so, SS charges should scale with levels, imo. It's already almost mandatory to rush it (instead of the risky, more exciting Mobi boot rush) and it shouldn't enable perfect vision control in lane on purchase.

The LexerMay 24, 20153 votes

Thats because the LCS pros are more aware about how big of a deal vision is. They buy more wards, put more wards on the map and thus, the opponent needs 3-4 item 3364 to clear everything, and the ADC usually gets a item 3363 . This means you don't get the 3 people who buy item 3361 each game and need the SS to keep up vision without spending thousands on wards

Jungle Lux GodMay 23, 20151 votes

Warding Totem and its upgrades don't completely outclass Sightstone because of the rest of the game that surrounds the trinkets.

Sightstone needs to be considered based on every other item in the game that is available, but you have 6 slots to fill out, 5 if boots are mandatory. Which they are, so you basically have 5 slots and a choice of boots.

Warding Totem competes with Sweeping Lens and Scanning Orb, but you only have one slot to get them. You need to choose one because you can only have one.

Because wards are normal purchases and can be used for free after spending 800 gold on Sightstone, Greater Stealth Totem doesn't completely outclass Sightstone because it has to compete with Sweeping Lens/ Oracle's Lens, and Lens is far more valuable than Totem because you cannot replace Lens as an item except from the Raptor smite buff, and that is only available for one player.

By itself, Sightstone is outclassed by Greater Stealth Totem, but in the broader state of the game Sighstone is not outclassed by Greater Stealth Totem because the rest of the game makes Totem weaker than other options.

GinoSoldierMay 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Warding Totem and its upgrades don't completely outclass Sightstone because of the rest of the game that surrounds the trinkets.

Sightstone needs to be considered based on every other item in the game that is available, but you have 6 slots to fill out, 5 if boots are mandatory. Which they are, so you basically have 5 slots and a choice of boots.

Warding Totem competes with Sweeping Lens and Scanning Orb, but you only have one slot to get them. You need to choose one because you can only have one.

Because wards are normal purchases and can be used for free after spending 800 gold on Sightstone, Greater Stealth Totem doesn't completely outclass Sightstone because it has to compete with Sweeping Lens/ Oracle's Lens, and Lens is far more valuable than Totem because you cannot replace Lens as an item except from the Raptor smite buff, and that is only available for one player.

By itself, Sightstone is outclassed by Greater Stealth Totem, but in the broader state of the game Sighstone is not outclassed by Greater Stealth Totem because the rest of the game makes Totem weaker than other options.

Y'know, as a tank support (or tank top lane) i like taking smite along for the ride. One part is because Cinderhulk is sweet to have around, but another is the Smite buffs, including Raptors. It's easy enough to just pass by your Raptors (or the enemy's) and get the buff with Smite and leave, and really practical besides. That lowers the need of the red trinket, and allows for not (wasting a goddamn item space and sacrificing time by delaying actually good items building Sightstone because you have the yellow trinket instead. Add more objective capturing potential, Chilling Smite and the fact that you can safely use it to proc the Runic Shield gold sharing passive, and it's pretty sweet. Now if only Magus was anywhere near as useful as Cinderhulk, I could justify taking Smite on mage supps as well.

I kinda wish Riot gave everyone the Yellow Trinket from the get go, and allowed people to choose between Red and Blue (and maybe something else fancy), and delete the damn Sightstone from the game so we can be rid of it for good.

Y'all can probably guess, but my approach as a support is 'get as powerful as possible so you can just hand your carries the kills on a silver platter and get fed yourself on the offchance that no one else can nab a kill.' I do understand that grabbing FH or Locket will help my entire team and i do use them, because they're actually useful to me as well, but especially as far as mage supports go, (mostly Sona because those AP ratios are damn sweet) I loathe building something like a Mikael's Crucible because it's utility will never outscale what sheer AP can give me in overall and constant efficiency. And by efficiency I mean healing for 25k health/game, giving 40%+ speed buffs to my team, and also having the satisfaction of putting a Leblanc down to half health in a single combo and forcing her to get out or die.

Jungle Lux GodMay 25, 20151 votes

You better not be taking smite buffs from your jungler's Raptor camp.

The jungler needs that buff more than anyone, including the support.

Steal it from the enemy's raptor camp, and never your team's raptor camp, not to mention that if you are playing with a competent jungler you will never get the smite buff from your team's Raptor camp anyways.

GinoSoldierMay 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You better not be taking smite buffs from your jungler's Raptor camp.

The jungler needs that buff more than anyone, including the support.

Steal it from the enemy's raptor camp, and never your team's raptor camp, not to mention that if you are playing with a competent jungler you will never get the smite buff from your team's Raptor camp anyways.

Only time when i do take it is when i'm headed towards dragon/baron and the raptors happen to be up. It's a buff well used, and more often than not my jungler is with me when we go dragon/baron, meaning he can save his smite(s) for the objective. I do tend to smite Wolves when i pass through there, either ally or enemy, that extra vision is always useful, and maybe as top, once in a while if i'm playing a tank, i take gromp. In any and every case, i warn my jungler i do.

Jungle Lux GodMay 25, 20151 votes

Make sure you have the jungler's permission, because Raptor buff in particular is vital to the jungler's success.

As a jungle main, I generally don't care if someone else has Smite on my team and smites away the Krug buff or the Wolf buff, and oftentimes I don't even touch the Gromp buff. But I always want the Raptor's smite buff, and I personally wouldn't want the support or top laner to run smite to take my Raptor buff.

Of course, I'm not every jungle main out there, and they might not have a big deal giving up one or two raptor buffs to the Support, but always make sure to ask your jungler if it's okay to get it.

chipndip1May 23, 20151 votes

I don't know about you, but the last thing I want is a support without a sweeper, so plz don't be that guy.

However, I agree that the Sight Stone takes some fun out of support because it's a whole item solely dedicated to vision, rather than making your character stronger. Adding varying stats to the Sight Stone would be the best way to rectify this, so that multiple types of supports, between traditional sustain, all-in tanks, and poking mages, can have a solid option to utilize.

Just make it the next tier upgrade instead of the lousy Ruby SS. -_-

NaClBatteryMay 23, 20152 votes

As I have stated several times in this thread, Sweeper is fall to valuable for me to replace.

However, I have mentioned that with some minor item shuffling (which requires coordination and communication with your team) you can still benefit from having a sweeper (JG) two Totem upgrades (Solo laner and Support) and Scrying orb (ADC) Which frees up a slot for the support to build a luxury item that can increase their power or the teams without sacrificing vision control.

But apparently, cooperation is too much to ask for in a team game.

chipndip1May 25, 20151 votes

Problem: It is too much to ask for, and one sweeper isn't going to solve all your worries when it comes to vision. You'll in generally need 2 sweepers, 2 totems, a SS, and a Scrying from what I was taught. Besides, you can't count on teammates to WARD. =/

Matthias9119May 24, 20151 votes

IMO the issue is that if you make SS significantly better (by making it more slot-efficient), it goes from "almost always a good idea on support" to "must-buy on every support no matter what" and/or "must buy on everyone who's not an ADC/APC". Vision is really valuable.

What might be interesting would be to remove SS and replace it with a fourth trinket option that behaves more like SS, maybe along with nerfing the charge rate on the upgraded yellow trinket a bit. e.g. something like:

Sight Totem Holds up to 3 stealth totems Gains a charge every 120s (or even less, maybe 150/180s so it's strictly worse than yellow if you don't back?) Refills to 2 charges when you are at the fountain

Greater Sight Totem Available at level 9 Holds up to 5 stealth totems Refills up to 3 charges when you are at the fountain Gains a charge every 90s (or maybe 120s if it's higher than that before 9?) Increases your stealth ward cap to 4 (?)

NaClBatteryMay 24, 20152 votes

But that's the issue. If it wasn't for Sweeping lens being amazing for objective and vision control, I would get the Stealth Totem upgrade, and just get a 6th combat item.

You know, I've been thinking, that instead of Sweeper Lens, I know in Twisted Treeline and Howling Abyss, there are two vision items, giving both vision of stealth units/Traps (Hextech Sweeper and Lightbringer) Now I'm not saying to copy pasta them on Summoner's Rift. but maybe incorporate their active into a supportish Item. But then you still run into the issue of an item feeling mandatory.

Ultimately, trying to tweak the trink system, and making new items to fit vision niches may not be the best route. I think the easiest route that would minimally impact game balance while still providing a QOL improvement would be it recharge over time, or even a small noncombat stat boost (Something like HP5, Movespeed, GP5).

Matthias9119May 24, 20151 votes

I think the easiest route that would minimally impact game balance while still providing a QOL improvement would be it recharge over time, or even a small noncombat stat boost (Something like HP5, Movespeed, GP5).

That's not a QOL improvement, it's a straight-up buff. The problem is that this makes SS even more mandatory than it is now. (Or, rather, makes the mandatory-ness of it feel less bad, since it is more slot-efficient. Also, MS is definitely a combat stat on some champs!)

SS is good early because it gives you a big spike in ward coverage at a low cost. It's good mid-to-late game because it overlaps heavily with the yellow trinket and so you can have both "lots of free stealth wards" and a red trinket at the cost of one item slot. Losing one item slot doesn't become an issue on supports until very late game.

Making it an alternative trinket option might make it a more interesting choice. Even if the yellow trinket upgrade is good, current SS+(one of the other trinkets) will inevitably be even better.

aaIamMay 24, 20151 votes

ur fucking lvl 9 get level 30 then talk

NaClBatteryMay 24, 20154 votes

Yeah, it's not like this could be a smurf account, because I don't wish to be harassed on my main, as I have made that mistake before on the old GD forums.

Not like anyone could make a free account at anytime. or a lowly "level 9" with only 1 game played this year could go into in-depth knowledge of the game, items, tactics, and wishes to improve a niche item only used by one role that people in lower Elos still incorrectly play.

Of course, the chances of any of those things happening are so astronomically low. You must be in the right

Or you could not make rampant assumptions and not be an ass.

KoldheartedjspMay 25, 20151 votes

the trinket is much better because of the existence of the sweeping lens...

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