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The Precise Explanation for How the Zilean Rework made him so Weak, and How it Fix it.

Lil Soybean·4/23/2015, 11:43:07 AM·16 votes·3,744 views

TL;DR: if his E had a longer range his entire kit would be viable and would feel better as well.

Hey guys, I'm only in Gold, but I have just about 500 ranked Zilean games, so I know the champion pretty well.

These are my long, drawn-out thoughts, and I'm sure you guys won't feel like reading it all, but thanks for reading whatever parts of it that you do.

It'd be great if someone in the balance team read these things and take note of his current state so that they can follow up on his recent rework.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-GHnwG6FX8EY/VTgYJPywrPI/AAAAAAAAol8/V8Sl0zjBb3M/s1600/Zilean_Splash_5.jpg

I'm going to be the dissenting voice here; I think Zilean's rework makes him extremely fun now.

I also enjoy the stun mechanic because it allows me to cut off paths, which I do quite, quite often. Super quickly QWQ a spot with enemies running in that direction, and they either freeze to avoid it, or freeze because they stepped on it and got stunned.

HOWEVER, his rework introduced some major problems that probably lend to him being one of the lowest pickrate & lowest winrate champions in the entire game.

Here's where the real issue lies. You have two skill paths to choose from as Zilean, realistically:

**1) **You max your bomb in lane, so that you actually hurt the enemy with your poke instead of it being something thresh blocks with his lantern casually every ~8-10 seconds. So, okay, you have decently damaging but unreliable poke. The problem is that you transition into being much worse mid-game because your slow is so much worse than it used to be, even maxing it second. So you poke decently in lane, but are slow and unhelpful after the laning phase.

OR:

2) You max your Speed and then your Rewind. The result? Your laning phase is mega-shitty; you do nearly no damage, save for at level 1 perhaps. But you have a potent slow/speed up to set up ganks relatively easily, if the jungler decides to come. But more importantly, you're actually useful after the laning phase ends. You get to keep yourself super-rapid most of the time, running around, hard to catch, throwing wards and scouting bushes with bombs, etc. It's at this point that he can make huge plays happen just by using his speed/slow to assist a tanky or melee champion (usually his toplaner or jungler).

So either you have a mediocre laning phase, then become shitty, or you start off shitty, then become potentially REALLY helpful.

The 2nd option sounds better. And that's where you run into his major problem. If you want to be very useful mid-game as Zilean, you have to take the level route that makes you horribly weak in lane. And what tends to dominate the support meta?

Champions that can make squishies instantly die if they land one ability at the right moment. Thresh Blitzcrank Annie Morgana AKA, champions with absurdly strong lane-presence just from their utility.

So, for example, Annie can max whatever she wants first and still be extremely useful in lane by landing a stun on the enemy. If Zilean wants to have any sort of presence like that in lane, he has to max his bombs, and even then, it's less reliable for damage and pretty much useless for actually stunning & killing the enemy. (You can get lucky and land a double bomb, and then you have nothing but auto attacks to hurt the stunned target. Morgana, for example, can pool beneath you. Annie has a burst rotation. Thresh can flay & follow up with enhanced autos. Blitz has the knockup and, at 6, the silence.)

You get the point. The way his kit is designed turned him from previously a reliable lane poker into now "You only get to have one of your abilities be useful; the bombs, or the speed/slow. Choose wisely."

That is the fundamentally broken part in my eyes. I really would like my bombs to be useful. But if I sacrifice even one point in my E/W, I'm sacrificing a huge part of my speed/slowing power, so I can't afford to make my bombs useful.

Oh, and one last thing. As mentioned before; the speed-cap/"diminishing returns" on your speed boost really, really sucks. It's up from 55% to 99% now - almost 2x as much of a bonus - but it certainly doesn't feel anywhere near 2x as strong. Only slightly stronger, maybe 15-20% more. Although it does feel really potent on enemy champions now, that's counteracted by how short the duration is.

At 40% CDR and max level W and E, you still can't have your E on yourself permanently. The old Zilean could have himself sped up permanently and still speed up someone nearby a bit as well. Theoretically the gaps in your speed boost are "made up for" by the increased speed effectiveness, but that isn't actually the case because of the diminishing returns on speed bonues. This is probably, by design, supposed to be balanced by the fact that shorter but faster speed bursts lend to better escapes & easier skillshot dodging, which is quite nice. But it came at the cost of the end-game fantasy of Zoom Zoom Zilsta being permanently super-fast like he could be before.

Last but not least, the decrease from 7s to 5s on the ulti sounds like counterplay addition, but it became more of an issue of baiting your allies into killing themselves. They see the ulti, hesitate, then decide to go in and try to die with it. So either 1) they die with it and then get killed on the spot upon revival, which was already an issue before, or more pressingly; 2) they panic and run into the enemies and die a brief moment after your mark expires. As a Zilean player, it's really disappointing how many times I've heard people sadly comment how the Zilean ult just barely ran out by the time they died. But the irony is, if they didn't have my ultimate on them, THEY MIGHT HAVE JUST RUN AWAY TO BEGIN WITH.

Is the impact of what I'm saying here being fully understood? Zilean's ulti, which is supposed to specifically save someone's life, now often kills your ally by baiting them just long enough into running by the enemies and getting killed after the mark expires.

So yeah, taking away the bomb's reliability, then nerfing his E range (which really, really sucks) to make sure the bombs stay unreliable, then also making his ulti sometimes kill your allies by reducing the mark duration - the addition of the stun, as powerful as it is, really didn't compensate him enough.

There needs to be an improvement. It can seem small but actually be extremely helpful.

The best and simplest change would be to revert his E's range back to the old range. This would increase bomb reliability as well as allowing you to help out allies from a more reasonable range. It'd be massively helpful on him, and this change alone could possibly bring him into viability versus champions like Thresh/Alistar.

Another possibility is making his W on precisely a low enough cooldown at rank 5 that at MAX CDR and MAX RANK in W, you can once again reach the end-game fantasy of keeping the speed boost of E applied to yourself permanently.

This is probably the thing that made him the most fun before, and the most devastating thing they removed from him. The ability to stay permanently sped once you finally met the right conditions later on in the game.

The maths are a little too wonky for myself, but essentially, with 40% CDR and W at max rank, you need to be able to pull your E off cooldown precisely every 2.5 seconds, which is just as long as the speed's duration. So you can permanently speed yourself (at the cost of constant mana drain) or you can alternate speeding yourself and an ally non-permanently. I don't know what W cooldown would facilitate this - it seems that it would be 4.16666~ seconds, so that at 40% CDR it's at precisely 2.5 seconds between uses - but 4.16666~s cooldown is a little bit strange, so making his W a flat 4s cooldown at rank 5 would be IMMENSELY helpful on its own, both in terms of viability and in terms of FUN.

Because of either of these W and E improvements, he wouldn't need to have his bombs changed, because his kit would synergize better - with the return to the old range on his E, it would actually be used to land the bombs more easily now, which should be the whole point, instead of them lowering his E's range to purposely avoid that. With how squishy he is, you can't really get in E range to land your bombs now that the E range was nerfed. It needs these improvements.

Last but not least; scrap the passive, or buff it. Make it something you actually feel.

So, consequences of these changes: Zilean, at his peak, becomes nearly un-catchable due to how constantly fast he is, while also being extremely difficult to escape with his permanent wither. (Well, the movement speed part, anyway.)

The trade offs?

To begin with, he still has the terrible two-paths issue in his kit, where either your bombs are useless or your slow is near-useless. Basically, in a world dominated by early-game powerhouse supports, he would be the fragile, weak-early but hyper-scaling, late-game support.

Furthermore, he still has to get in harm's way to cast his ulti on allies, even at his full-strength late game.

At the cost of having nearly zero kill potential in-lane, as well as being an easy source of kills for the enemy if they land a single hook/pull/bind/stun, he gets rewarded for chugging through the early game with what would be an incredible late-game, after even just one of these changes.

Basically, he becomes the first hyper-scaling support. But not off of Gold. Scaling off of experience, which he will get over time, and which makes sense with his passive.
Uncatchable and inescapable if you reach his perfect late-game fantasy, but good luck getting there.

Are you getting what I'm saying?

The Chronokeeper would not only be funner, and more reliable, but his identity would be the support that becomes stronger and stronger WITH TIME!<<<

Zilean Ekko Zilean TIME!!!!Zilean Ekko Zilean

His passive might not even need to be changed, because his scaling is based mostly off of getting to level 18 so your abilities are max level, so having a passive that promotes the "fight towards your late-game max level over time" identity would actually be good for his kit if these changes went through!

Again; these are my long, drawn-out thoughts, and I'm sure you guys won't feel like reading it all, but thanks for reading whatever parts of it that you do.

One last thing, in regards to people suggesting they replace his W.

[{quoted}](name=Lil Soybean,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AxQE5hpK,comment-id=00100000,timestamp=2015-08-17T23:45:21.249+0000)

This would make him into a different champion.

That's the issue I have with most 'time ability' suggestions. People aren't thinking, 'how can we make zilean's fun kit viable'? People are thinking, 'how can we change zilean's fun kit into a completely different kit that's viable??"

He doesn't need a different playstyle, he only needs viability.

27 Comments

MrRazzleDazzle4/23/2015, 5:13:30 PM4 votes

This guy gets it. I don't even level my bombs anymore because the damage is so insignificant that it doesn't justify the cost (160 mana for one unreliable combo?!). His strength is now in his speed and getting people to and from where they need to be. If they nurf this to "compensate" to add more damage then Riot will have lost my respect as a balancing team.

His passive is just terrible. There's never a time when my ADC says "thanks for getting us to lvl 3 Zilian!" because its only about 6 minions more of experience anyways. On top of my terrible laning phase, what could we realistically do to make use of the passive? It needs to go.

Abyssphere4/23/2015, 6:56:37 PM3 votes

I think the problem of "max one, have the other be useless" can be easily solved. It's not necessarily a bad thing to have maxing an ability over another one change your playstyle, so Zilean choosing between an early game based on movement speed manipulation versus an early game based on poking is cool, but obviously the current choice is a bit too harsh. IMO best way to change it is to make his E and Q scale less extremely with level, but have a higher starting point. That way the one you don't level till later suffers less. I'd just go:

Q - Time Bomb: Magic Damage: 75 / 115 / 165 / 230 / 300 (+ 90% AP) > 80 / 135 / 190 / 245 / 300 (+ 90% AP)

E - Time Warp: Slow/Speed boost: 40 / 55 / 70 / 85 / 99% > 55 / 66 / 77 / 88 / 99%

IMO one of the big problems with Q right now is that the scaling is bizarrely backloaded (why do you initially gain 40 damage for leveling it before scaling to a ridiculous 70?) meaning you either max it or don't level it up at all because the first couple of levels you put in are worthless. Even scaling means you can actually say, rank it up to level 2/3 and then leave it if you wish to do so. On the other hand E now starts off at the same effectiveness it currently has at rank 2, which puts a lot less pressure on you to level that one up as just one or two levels is all you really need (as we all know, the soft cap on movement speed modifiers makes the later ranks superfluous).

Blade of Justic8/17/2015, 8:59:41 PM2 votes

As someone who really likes Zilean, I came into this thread like this:

http://rs921.pbsrc.com/albums/ad52/Obsessive_Jess/Other/Woody_zps5975078e.gif~c200

But after reading this and realizing that you're tweaking numbers and aren't recommending something like getting rid of his W, I was like this:

http://i50.tinypic.com/1zdra8m.gif

+1 for someone that actually understands why Zilean has problems.

Ghiefelstein4/24/2015, 9:54:39 AM2 votes

I wish Zilean got his old auto attack range of 600 back. It gives him something to do in the laning phase other than wait until it is over.

Lil Soybean4/23/2015, 10:33:32 PM1 votes

b

Lil Soybean4/24/2015, 3:01:43 AM1 votes

b x2 combop

MetalGearTeemu4/24/2015, 9:03:00 AM1 votes

Just play support lulu. Not only do you get the ability to speed allies and slow enemies, but you actually have an ult that prevents them from dying rather then just rezzing them, as well as one of the highest effective health infusions in the game to a single target with shield/ult.

Honestly what shows me that riot has no real idea what they're doing is the fact they took zil's bomb away, and gave it to Tristi. The mechanic of planting a bomb and auto attacking it increase its damage should have been a mechanic for Zil's rework,

Lil Soybean4/24/2015, 9:57:39 AM1 votes

b

SpiritSpartan4/24/2015, 2:39:58 PM1 votes

I feel like number wise, Zilean is fine. The single thing that bring him into the underpower area is the fact that his Q is now an unreliable skill shot.

Since Zilean is suppose to poke during laning phase, he become in a truly disadvantage situation. To make him viable, the only thing that need to be fixed is the early game.

Suggestions:

  • His first bomb could have a larger "attach" range than his second one (improve poke reliability without making him a stun machine).
  • Stun duration 1.5s at all level.
Lil Soybean4/24/2015, 6:17:27 PM1 votes

b

Lil Soybean4/25/2015, 2:46:12 AM1 votes

b x2

Aerilus8/17/2015, 8:42:33 PM1 votes

The main reason I feel Zilean is underpowered, is that it feels like he only has 3 abilities, and his only offensive ability is not good enough to make up for the other abilities.

Passive - 8% Additional Experience - Seems kind of low for a passive that only gives experience, I feel this should be a bit higher like 10-12%. I don't ever recall being more than 1-2 levels higher than my enemy as Zilean, so I doubt this passive effect is doing much of anything..

Q - Only does decent damage early game or if you spam it all the time using W. The stun is useful and it is possible to land, but not frequently. It's unreliable sometimes, but not as unreliable as his R

W - Only resets cooldown on Q, and E, doesn't feel like it's useful enough to be a full ability. I feel this should include one extra effect like healing Zilean for a small amount or giving him a shield (as if rewinding time could have healed or prevented wounds)

E - Slow enemy or speed up feels alright, although it feels like it should last a little longer for how weak it is early game, and it can be unreliable. If your team doesn't respond by run away/ or chase the enemy when you're planning to speed them up, then your E can quickly become useless. Sometimes it takes the full duration of the E for my teammate to notice I casted it on them ( same problem with R really )

R - Great Skill, but extremely unreliable. It's very easy for your teammate to accidentally run away when Zilean's ult is on him because they either don't notice it or they're afraid it'll wear off before they die. It's also very easy for enemies to detect if his ult is on someone except during huge team fights, and even then I've frequently had enemies just stop attacking my ally who has 30 hp because they see my ult on him, and then they just wait and finish him off. Maybe this skill could reduce cooldown on itself if the ult fails to resurrect anybody.

Because the way his kit is setup, if he can't help his allies by bombing them or speeding them up/slowing down enemies because they have lots of cc or too much damage for him to get in close all the time, then Zilean will easily be cancelled out. If the enemies have lots of damage overall sometimes his ult will even be useless.

So when it comes to supporting, his Q is good for harass/zoning, his E is good for slowing them down/speed up allies, and R is good for resurrection in rare cases. Overall this makes him way too weak against any support or champs that have good cc. His speed up can help allies get away from CC, but it is only useful if your team makes use of it.

Lil Soybean4/23/2015, 11:58:21 AM1 votes

Lots of current discussion on this. Would love a red post at some point, as well as any player feedback, so I'll keep bumping.

Nekusen8/17/2015, 9:00:41 PM1 votes

suggestions to change his passive:

#1

New Passive: Reminiscence

If Zilean stands still for 4 seconds he creates a Memory (a ghost of himself) (only 1 at the time, creating a new one eliminates others) Memories cannot be target. Pressing Alt-key allows to control the memory (the original zilean can still be moved and damaged, like when controlling other clones) this memory looks "ghostly" and distinguishable from the original. Memories don't grant vision and disappear after zilean dies.

Memories can't move but can cast spells with shared cooldown with the original. 4 seconds after of casting the first spell with a memory, the memory fades.

Now, memories could have 2 possible auras, either: 1- nearby allies get 8% extra XP. 2- when Zilean casts a spell, allied champions near the Memory get +5% cooldown reduction for X seconds and/or nerby enemies -5% cdr.

#2

New Passive: Reminiscence Zilean creates a Memory after standing still for 5 seconds (an unkillable immobile ghost of himself).
Zilean can have a maximum of 1/2/3 Memories

When Zilean or any ally clicks on a Memory, it's teleported to it ((600 range) or 500/600/700) consuming the memory and granting Zilean some XP (regardless of who uses the Memory). (this would compensate for the XP/gold lost while Zilean is roaming and standing to leave the Memories)

Suggestions about his abilities "evolving" according to how much they are used.

1- spells get stacks each time you cast a spell, each stack making the spell a little bit better.

  • like bombs doing more damage/radius
  • time warp giving/taking more speed or lasting longer

2- making it so when you reach X number of stacks (individually for each spell) the spell evolves.

  • bombs having a larger radius to stick to a target, or they being thrown in a cluster, etc.
  • time warp being AoE or giving larger bonuses
  • rewind being able to be cast 2 times in a row (with a recharge)
  • ult doing something like 's W or AoE damage when the target dies
Solidair34/23/2015, 4:34:43 PM1 votes

I've been doing well with him, is he really that weak?

Takeuchi 174/23/2015, 5:41:53 PM1 votes

there was another forum post similar to this. I took away a couple ideas I really liked (one change ties into the other with this)

the first being that zileans q would have two charges (similar to velkoz w). also lower the detonation times a little bit (i feel like they take way to long to detonate)

scrap the w altogether along with the q change. it provides no purpose now since it doesnt even lower the cd of your ult anymore. even currently it serves no purpose other than to reset your q and may be get the stun which is almost never, or let you run away really fast or may be save a teammate. may be give him another form of damage for his w, some kind of damage over time (lol clever I know)

lower the cd on the e or at least increase the duration. may be both

SIayton4/23/2015, 5:47:01 PM1 votes

They should just make his slow 99% at level 1 and increase the duration with levels. Have it something small like 1 sec at level 1 just to help land Qs, but then scale up to like 2.5 or 3 seconds. I think that would fix him entirely because then bombs would be much much more reliable to land.