The Raw Power of ADC's shows Riot should Take what's stated on these Boards and Reddit Lightly

Apocyliptic·8/23/2017, 3:01:42 AM·93 votes·4,724 views

As it stands, ADC's are beyond broken. If you all remember, at the start of this season, the infamous "ADC in 2k17, lul," meme took reddit by storm, and it seemed like every other post was showing some play where this random ADC seemingly got mowed down by some tank with sunfire and iceborn gauntlet (usually poppy). Back then, I remember specifically trying to argue with the circle jerk nature of the meme, and if you check my post history, you'll probably find it, but it didn't seem to help anything. Everyone was convinced that ADC was weak, so people started to take Ziggs bot lane, which started with ImaQtpie, when he was infamous for taking stuff like GP, Mordekaiser and Yasuo bot lane, but to the hive mind, this didn't matter. They saw a mage bot lane and started screaming, "look how weak we are, we can't even have our own lane! REEEEET!" and in came the bombardment of Ziggs bot lane. At the time, I hadn't ranked my main up to Diamond, I was just playing fun stuff on smurfs, so I saw my fair share of low elo players taking Ziggs bot lane and proceeding to feed their ass off.

However, the issue at this time never WAS that ADC's were weak, it was that Poppy and any other tank that built Sunfire and Iceborn were just too strong, and first blood tower was so impactful and gold worthy at the time, Ziggs W helped grab it quickly. Alas, no one looked at it like that though, they saw a full tank poppy run down an adc, one shot hit, and lose a hundred health in the process. During this whole time no one stopped to think, "Maybe Poppy's the problem," It was somehow every ADC being too weak to function.

Point is, Riot has infused the ADC class with too many tools to survive, and it started with the new support items(item 3107 item 3109 item 3504 item 3190 item 3301 ) , which again was the communities outcry to make support more, "rewarding." Somehow riot decided to do this by just throwing items with stats at them, stats that specifically would buff up your ADC with either a: shield, heal, or life steal was the way to go. That was wrong.

A new lifesteal mastery was introduced, and eventually, a tank mastery that allowed ADC's to literally sap health from their tanks when they took damage. item 3812 was introduced, giving them even more survivability on top of the newly released item 3026 and item 3046 , turning them into drain tanks with insane late game carry potential that could take too much damage for any assassin to eat through with their newly gimped kits, so they faded into obscurity.

Since Lethality was strong, ADC's started to build that, and abuse that, giving them both a strong mid game and late game. Riot saw this as a problem, and instead of changing the items to be more rewarding for assassins, or for gods sake simply making them melee only they decided to nerf said items, then buff Crit items over time, with price decreases and just straight up damage buffs. I don't think anyone here is going to argue with crit being weaker than lethality at the time, but that doesn't mean it needed as much buffs as it was granted, especially considering the raw survivability options the ADC class was given considering they were designed around being squishy and easy to take down when jumped on top of.

This is why champions like Janna and Lulu are strong, because the ADC class is simply TOO STRONG. They revolved completely around buffing up their ADC with point and click abilities, and now with other items as well. Their winrate has ALWASY fluctuated around how strong the ADC class is as a whole, and Janna has ALWAYS been a problem because of it. To me, it's ridiculous that she is only getting complaints after reaching an INSANE 58% WINRATE. I have ALWASY complained about janna, back when she had a 54% winrate or 53%, and I ALWAYS banned her until Jayce and kennen became meta. Whenever I did, of course I was downvoted, but I also knew I was right.

Because of all this, the problem is too deeply rooted to just be solved by nerfing crit, or hell, even nerfing every single ADC one by one. All their tools they have been granted over time, and the continual indirect nerfs to both bruisers and assassins alike has made them too strong. No one can kill them, and no one can pressure them, so everyone's just decided to join them by playing tanks and enchantment supports to buff them up. The games essentially turned into a 1v1 between the ADC's on both teams, mindlessly shredding whoever is in their path and whoever kills who's frontline first wins.

70 Comments

ChargeItDownMid8/23/2017, 3:08:21 AM32 votes

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Avarist8/23/2017, 8:02:28 AM19 votes

Riot has their own dedicated statistics and investigations into characters / character archetypes beyond perusing what reddit/boards are complaining about on any given patch.

A lot of complaints can prompt specific investigation, sure, but I think it's pretty naive to think a company is going to base their balance decisions off of sifting through here and reddit. (Sorry if that comes across as a bit abrasive, I don't really intend it to be)

Don't get me wrong though I agree with the majority of what you're saying, but I think it is just a consequence of them addressing various other problems in the game which have elevated ADC's pretty extremely.

For example at the time, support genuinely did feel like an underwhelming role, you had very few interesting itemisation choices or means to obtain gold. I'm not saying that they were -weak-, because that is a case by case basis, many were capable of protecting their adc's and all of that good stuff, but does that mean that the support role should be exempt from any gameplay improvements / itemisation changes? Support mains want to feel good about supporting, they want more impactful options like other roles have, etc.

Also, in regards to the support items being introduced targetting their Adc's specifically, I feel like that is the support fantasy in general, isn't it? To protect and empower the ally of your choosing, which makes sense it would be primarily the ADC, as they are your assumed laning partner and who you would typically roam around with later in the game. They also have some AoE options for supporting their team too.

It would be nice for there to be support itemisation that specifically empowers ability power based characters though, so they don't feel pidgeon-holed into giving the ADC everything.

Whether you agree or disagree with the changes, ultimately I think it's just the ever-turning wheel of balance and gameplay improvement shifting what is strong and what is weak.

You can point to things and say, "I knew this would happen I posted about it on the boards and argued against it!", and all that good stuff, but hindsight is 20/20 and I don't think riot should be discouraged from experimenting and adding interesting gameplay changes.

However, again I don't disagree, they are powerful, too powerful, and I fully expect them to be nerfed. Thing is though knee-jerk reactions and band-aid fixes are not good for the long-term health of the game, and any time they have done it in the past it has made far greater problems crop up in the game, in my opinion.

It's an annoying meta, but at least the meta shifts quickly relative to some other games, and Riot has for the most part done their part to keep the wheel turning.

Edit: I think the biggest issue with ADC's right now is they are scaling too quickly, power spikes for adc's are coming in a lot earlier due to censor + shiv, or you know, censor on its own. I think they need to take longer to take off, personally.

Mizaya8/23/2017, 3:55:37 AM18 votes

Yeah, it's a bit more than "ADCs are too strong, and thus everything else falls into place"

You have to keep in mind:

Jungle income and xp gain has fallen dramatically since early season. CC heavy tanks building supportive items such as Knight's Vow are much more effective on a lower budget.

Ardent Censer is more or less a support item that becomes an ADC item. It gives just so much stats; Janna's E with a Censer gives something like 4k gold of stats if I remember correctly. The power of Censer is almost completely related to the power of ADCs.

ADCs aren't building these items, for the most part: item 3812 item 3046 item 3026 . They are relying on peel from their team. item 3087 item 3094 is just way more popular, as well as item 3139. GA, yeah, people still build that, but it's more or less an end-game item that actually is a double-edged sword of sorts for ADCs - it's more effective when built against them now.

So, what do you do? Nerf crit? But KogMaw is one of, if not the best carries in high elo, and nerfing crit will hardly touch him. Why would that be? Nerf every ADC? Well, Riot just buffed Ez, instead of nerfing him, because he's a trash champion currently. I know the ADC champion pool is small, and FRANKLY as an ADC player I wouldn't mind other champions being introduced to the bot lane, matter of fact I'd be excited about it. I don't know where this "All ADC players only want to play ADCs thing came from", but I wouldn't use it as part of an argument. I often go to other roles just because I get bored of playing the same champions bot lane over and over again.

Anyways, this perceived strength of ADCs is also a result of everything else in the meta. Low Jungle income/xp, waveclear dominance of mid lane, that MR scaling buff for ranged champs a while back, item 3190 changes and the introduction of item 3193. ADCs suddenly seem stronger than before? Well, it's all relative.

Sp33d Zer08/23/2017, 3:06:03 AM6 votes

Imaqtpie was not the front runner for ziggs bot, that was a guy named Shiphter I believe ( or something close to that). Qt merely adopted it and that was where it picked up a lot of traction.

Kloqdq8/23/2017, 1:48:54 PM6 votes

The problem with ADCs at the start of the season was legit junglers, mid laners, hell even top laners knew that bot lane had the most gold to offer up. So as a jungler at the time, you would camp bot because the most value was located there. So we all just camped the ever living fuck out of it. ADCs were in no manner weak. They just were 2v5ing majority of games and falling really behind because everyone else was snowballing. The assassins also were pretty strong. So people bitched, Riot saw the evidence of adcs being screwed and they nerfed everything and buffed ads. Now we skip to current day and ADCs completely determine the outcome of the game. This is because we didn't pick on the real issue, the gold value was massively located at bottom for everyone, and we just hit everything the wrong way. THAT, THAT was the problem.

lf virgin egirl8/23/2017, 5:08:13 AM5 votes

I made a post similar to this but yours explains into way more detail. I agree with you 100%. You can also point out the jungle meta. For over half of season 7 Ivern dominated by building support and buffing up his ADC. Now that he's been nerfed, the next useful thing are front line tanks that use bond of stone mastery.

SanKakU8/23/2017, 4:21:20 PM5 votes

Mages or Tanks or whatever being played in place of the Marksman takes nothing away from Marksmen themselves. It's just an alternate strategy, one in which you'd probably request a different type of Support or that they buy different items to help you with.

Although I don't think Marksmen are out of control, I do think that Tanks are not what they used to be and that many Fighters or other Champions that used to be played as if they were Tanks are no longer viable as such.

IcyPepper8/23/2017, 5:32:33 PM5 votes

"look how weak we are, we can't even have our own lane! REEEEET!"

The fact they think they should be entitled to their own lane (mid, top, and jungle aren't 'owned' by one single class for instance) still baffles me to this day.

Karfuss8/23/2017, 5:46:37 PM5 votes

It's time to just remove certain ADC items. Get rid of GA for starters, no more cheesing death. You die, you stay dead. ADCs should not have an item that saves them from terrible positioning.

But yes you are absolutely correct. Janna's win rate in particular has ALWAYS been fluctuating on the strength of ADCs. She is a bell weather champion. It isn't that support items are too strong (although some are, it's still quite scapegoaty), it is that ADC itemisation is broken beyond belief.

FNC Jinx8/23/2017, 5:53:23 PM5 votes

So... based on your post's tittle then you shouldn't be taken very seriously either when you say "ADC's are beyond broken" cause you know... "Riot should Take what's stated on these Boards and Reddit Lightly"

The only reason an ADC is strong, is because we're in a tank meta and anyone saying otherwise or calling tanks weak is either in denial or doesn't understand how the game works.

An ADC is strong only when they have a front line to help them deal their damage properly. Try playing ADC without a tank in the comp and you'll see how useless the class will really be. No front line means they'll be killed, no matter if there's a Janna or a Lulu in the team.

The moment you nerf tanks is when you can really start looking into reducing damage. The only reason there's so much damage in the game is because how busted tanks are. Ask any professional player, ask any coach of a professional team, and they will tell you: It's a tank meta not an ADC meta. Why do you think late game ADC are so popular at the moment? Why do you think tank busters are more popular over lane bullies (execpt Cait cause fuck Cait) in the game?

Because how busted tanks are. Now come the down votes and people refusing to accept this truth.

10 fps8/23/2017, 2:33:53 PM3 votes

Lulu and Janna too strong? It's the ADCs, boards logic.

PopcornBunni8/23/2017, 3:19:27 AM2 votes

Poppy has never had a winrate above 49%. The problem was that adcs were weak, but now they're overtuned. Thank item 3087 item 3031, and earlier and a lesser extent still item 3147 for that.

KurisutinaMakise8/23/2017, 12:17:53 PM2 votes

i loled about janna being strong she needs a team with half a brain to even make a impact late game even then still if the other team has 2 decent tanks it wont matter 1/9/42 +26k healing my last match and the tanks on the other team still ran my team down i supported my ass off and it did not matter so im not sure where anyone gets shes strong if the other team dont pick to deal with her thats their problem they shouldnt just attack a champion because the win rate is up imo but w/e my que time ever grows lol

Cosmic Warper8/24/2017, 5:02:12 AM2 votes

They should take the boards and reddit lightly. The boards are a joke in terms of civil discussion and thorough discourse. People whine instead of constructing an argument.

Fear the Kayn8/23/2017, 7:37:56 PM2 votes

What about Kindred? She's honestly crap right now and she is in desperate need of buffs/QoL changes. She's got waaaay too much counterplay.