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Let's try being reasonable and constructive about the 'Nerf Lee Sin!' whining, shall we?

Sadistic Cheese·12/17/2014, 3:28:35 PM·19 votes·3,672 views

Now, personally I haven't seen a lot of Lee lately. The times I have, he's done all right, usually pretty good since the meta is in a pretty big flux and thus I'd imagine there's not a lot of people just trying to ride the supposed freelo train, thus the only people playing him are those who LIKE playing him and probably actually know what they are doing beyond "Mash keys, ???, acquire ELO."

However not a single day goes by where I don't hear SOME kind of complaint that he's still king of the jungle, or overbearing, overpowered, or he needs some kind of nerf. Usually these kinds of statements are very vague, referring to LCS Big Plays, and how Riot loves him too much to nerf him. There's never any ideas beyond the occasional 'don't let him hop to wards anymore!' or other statement. Everyone claims it's soooo easy to just nerf him, or it should just happen. I'm getting tired of hearing about it, frankly...

So! Does anyone know what we should do next to facilitate actual communication and discussion and not vague whining? Anyone? Yes Billy!

Billy: "Post up Lee's moveset and ratios and let the whiners put their money where their mouth is?"

......go sit in the corner billy-wait....that's a good idea! Go get a juice box, Billy. You've earned it.

So! Thanks to Billy's good idea (for once), let's begin, shall we?

0 (Passive). Flurry After using an ability, Lee Sin's next 2 basic attacks within 3 seconds gain 40% attack speed and return 15 energy each.

1 (Q). Sonic Wave RANGE: 1100 COST: 50 ENERGY COOLDOWN: 11 / 10 / 9 / 8 / 7 ACTIVE: Lee Sin shoots a wave of sound in a line, dealing physical damage to the first enemy it hits and granting true sight of it for 3 seconds. If Sonic Wave hits, Lee Sin can cast Resonating Strike within the next 3 seconds. PHYSICAL DAMAGE: 50 / 80 / 110 / 140 / 170 (+ 90% bonus AD)

1.5 (Q). Resonating Strike RANGE: 1300 COST: 30 ENERGY ACTIVE: Lee Sin dashes to the enemy marked by Sonic Wave, dealing physical damage including 8% of the target's missing health. Minions and monsters take a maximum of 400 damage. PHYSICAL DAMAGE: 50 / 80 / 110 / 140 / 170 (+ 90% bonus AD) (+ 8% target's missing health) COMBINED DAMAGE: 100 / 160 / 220 / 280 / 340 (+ 180% bonus AD) (+ 8% target's missing health)

2 (W). Safeguard RANGE: 700 COST: 50 ENERGY COOLDOWN: 14 ACTIVE: Lee Sin dashes to a target ally. If the ally is a champion, they and Lee Sin receive a shield that lasts 2 seconds and Safeguard's cooldown is halved. Lee Sin can activate Safeguard on himself to receive the shield, and can cast Iron Will within 3 seconds. SHIELD: 40 / 80 / 120 / 160 / 200 (+ 80% AP)

2.5 (W). Iron Will COST: 30 ENERGY ACTIVE: For 4 seconds, Lee Sin gains bonus life steal and spell vamp. LIFE STEAL & SPELL VAMP: 5 / 10 / 15 / 20 / 25%

3 (E). Tempest RANGE: 350 COST: 50 ENERGY COOLDOWN: 10 ACTIVE: Lee Sin smashes the ground, dealing magic damage to all nearby enemies and granting true sight of them for 4 seconds. If Tempest hits an enemy, Lee Sin can cast Cripple within the next 3 seconds. MAGIC DAMAGE: 60 / 95 / 130 / 165 / 200 (+ 100% bonus AD)

3.5 (E). Cripple RANGE: 500 COST: 30 ENERGY ACTIVE: Lee Sin cripples all enemies within range that are marked by Tempest, Slow icon reducing their movement speed for 4 seconds, decaying over the duration. SLOW: 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 / 60%

4 (R). Dragon's Rage RANGE: 375 COOLDOWN: 90 / 75 / 60 ACTIVE: Lee Sin launches a powerful roundhouse kick, dealing physical damage to a target champion and Airborne icon knocking it back 1200 units over 1 second. Enemies the target collides with take the same damage and are Airborne icon knocked airborne for 1 second. PHYSICAL DAMAGE: 200 / 400 / 600 (+ 200% bonus AD)

Now that we have that mapped out, let's also remind ourselves of what the 'fantasy' is for Lee. I don't know for sure, but I think all you need to do is look at Dragon Fist Lee Sin and you have a rough idea of the fantasy they're shooting for. This guy is your Bruce Lee. He's meant to be that kung-fu action-movie hero who beats up entire rooms of 'highly-trained assassins' with apparent ease. And I won't lie: this idea seems awesome. If I was good at him, I'd probably play him a ton for that thought. Being Lee Sin, playing him, means zooming around like a rocket, punching people in the face, kicking them in the giblets, and possibly tossing out a few badly-dubbed one-liners as you do so. Or at least that's what it seems like to me.

That said, for those of you who complain that Lee has a problem? Have at it. Show me something that can be changed. Not just removed, but CHANGED, to make him better in your eyes, while still preserving what makes him him. Don't just cry 'gut him!' That's a cop-out and you'll never get Riot to do it. As I recall, we as a community helped Lee come to be, now we can help balance him if we're reasonable. You've got costs, you've got ratios, there's a lot here to work with. If you're all such brilliant minds at balance, let's see it.

48 Comments

Knight Devout12/17/2014, 4:00:47 PM9 votes

Dragon's Rage. COOLDOWN: 90 / 75 / 60 PHYSICAL DAMAGE: 200 / 400 / 600 (+ 200% bonus AD)

Now, for a physical damage spell, let me say this spell hurts a lot. A quick comparison.

Noxian Guillotine COOLDOWN: 120 / 100 / 80 TRUE DAMAGE: 160 / 250 / 340 (+ 75% bonus AD) MAX TRUE DAMAGE: 320 / 500 / 680 (+ 150% bonus AD)

Of course, Darius has the true damage advantage, but he get lower ratios, and needs to have 5 stacks of hemorrage to actually be that effective. But let's not compare with Darius, that was just to make a comparison with another high damage single target ultimate.

Now, the problem with Dragon Rage. It's a low cooldown high damage ability that has 2 purpose: can be used as a finisher(just for the damage) or to reposition a important target. The high damage makes it really effective once he grabs a LAst whisper, especially because last whisper also synergize with his Q execute. "But Arkblue, you dun goofus, no pro lee sin picks last whisper". Yes, I'm too baffled by the low popularity of Leest whispers(at worlds), but , according to Elophant , Last whisper it's the first item for lee sin in terms of winrate.

http://www.elophant.com/league-of-legends/champion/lee-sin/items Might be a snowball item? Dunno! But I think that a lot of players are influenced by the high numbers near Bonus AD and often opt for a higher AD items that, while effective on paper, it's less effective once resistances have been factored).

BUT the high damage itself is the worse problem? or the low cooldown? In my opinion the cooldown is fine. Most manaless-energy champions happen to have low cooldown ultimate anyway(except maybe Zed and Rengar for obvious reasons). I think the problem is just in the base damage: Lee Sin already happens to scale with the enemy MISSING health , so when he happens to Q1-R-Q2 with a last whisper the total damage spikes a lot! Now, I know the next whine what will be: "But Ark, isn't that a problem with Armor penetration being too strong?" Maybe. But it's extra problematic on champions who can afford to skip their item about mana/mana regen and go straight for the Warrior Enchant/Brutalizer +Last whisper. In short, the rework proposed a few months ago was on the right track, even if it had some flaws: Dragon's Rage can't be a low cooldown execute/utility knockback. One of the 2 things has to be toned down. I'd rather have it as an average damage ability with it's utility intact. Perhaps make some of its damage %max health to compliment with his Q?It works with Elise Q1-q2-

While we are at it, why is the cap on bonus damage to monster from lee sin SO HIGH?

Minions and monsters take a maximum of 400 damage. While Elise's Q deals 150 max? Wow. Doge Balance.

Nudz12/17/2014, 5:24:55 PM5 votes

I saw a post on another board about Junglers by summoner CoolKnightST that caught my interest;

"Attackspeed nerf Lee Sin now has his sight radius reduced to X: Enemy champions and neutral monsters within 1300-units that move within the Fog of War have their position revealed for Lee Sin and his allies."

Which to me, really made sense. It allowed Lee to be mobile, but also short-sided; coinciding with his character design while also giving him a weakness. You can't run from the Blind Monk, but you sure as hell can hide from him. It seemed like the first really creative idea for a Lee nerf, and being a Lee main, I completely love the idea. It adds a whole new level to his playstyle AND his counter-jungle ability

Sadistic Cheese12/17/2014, 10:59:35 PM3 votes

Well, since we're getting some interesting thoughts and ideas, perhaps I can work some Riot-related voodoo and we can get a member of the Balance crew in here....

sets up Irelia and Soraka figures in a pentagram made of blood

I buff Irelia...I undo the Soraka rework...I have made your mark in the blood of French Poros! You cannot deny my contract!

COME FORTH, MORELLO! I SUMMON THEE!

....or...you know...one of your minions would be nice too...

maikokk12/17/2014, 5:50:44 PM2 votes

NERF LEE SIN

Hyrum Graff12/17/2014, 4:53:10 PM2 votes

I don't have the time to do this for real right now, so this is a placeholder until I can take a stab at it later.

I think the biggest issue has to do with his E. It has AOE magic damage, that scales with AD, combined with an AOE slow.

In theory, I think it makes sense thematically. As you say, it's like a bunch of 'highly trained assassins' come at Lee, and then, compared to him, they're all moving at a snail's pace. However, practice it means that Lee is very difficult to itemize against early, since he often maxes E, and snowballs hard, since he has 3 high AD ratios. The strong aoe slow also gives him an incentive to build tank instead of bruiser, where I think he should be more of a bruiser/almost assassin.

I think lee should be dancing around a fight, making his opponents look slow, not actually slowing them. The first idea off the top of my head is to change his E so instead of doing damage, it marks all opponents in a slightly larger radius. Second cast is targeted and only usable on marked champions: Lee dashes to behind that champ, dealing damage. I could see Lees pulling off some really cool moves, like:

  • Got ambushed
  • Use E
  • Use Q on opponent 1 (low hp)
  • E to opponent 2
  • Kick opponent 2 into opponents 3, 4, and 5
  • Reactivate Q to kill opponent 1
  • Safeguard to safety.

If this guy's defining feature is his mobility, let's really make that the focus of his kit.

Xonra12/17/2014, 5:21:59 PM2 votes

Nope. I've been playing since before he was a champion so I've seen him being this strong longer than literally any other champion (I'm talking from creation till present of said champion whoever it may be).

If Riot isn't going to be reasonable about their balance then neither will or should I.

I've seen Urgot go from one of the top used ADCs (it was a long time ago and sadly it wasn't a huge window) to the laughing stock of League of Legends...While Lee Sin sits atop the throne of Jungle picking his teeth with a red buff.

I'm all for balance but it isn't done fairly by any means and the BALANCE isn't even balanced.

The Yetii Rider12/17/2014, 8:45:32 PM1 votes

Want me to nerf Lee Sin appropriately? Sure, here you go:

In order to change Lee Sin correctly, I will attempt to define Lee Sin's role. Lately Riot has tried to nerf generalist champions by making them more specialized. So I will change Lee Sin from being a DPS tank mobile jungler to a straight up utility tank jungler. Here we go:

Sonic Wave/Resonating Strike: 90% AD ratio - REMOVED 8% of missing health - REMOVED

Damage across the board stays the same. New damage modifier: Instead of 90% AD - 10% Bonus Health Instead of 8% of target's missing health - 4/5/6/7/8% of target's max health (Max 150 damage to monsters)

Safeguard/Iron Will Safeguard - Stays the same

Iron Will - Bonus life steal/spell vamp - REMOVED Replaced with 15/5 30/5 45/5 60/5 75/5 Health regeneration for 5 seconds. This health regeneration doubles while in combat with monsters, but only if Lee Sin has the Jungler passive.

Spell vamp has been removed from Olaf's kit because his spell vamp true damage was too strong. AD assassins are not supposed to have spell vamp (RIP Talon). So just cut it.

Tempest/Cripple Tempest damage changes from magic to physical Tempest no longer reveals stealthed champions Tempest 100% Bonus AD ratio changed to 60% AP ratio

Cripple - stays the same

Dragon Rage Cooldown increased to 80/70/60 from 60 at all ranks Damage changed to 100/200/300 from 200/400/600 Damage increases by 50 per enemy that the target is knocked through, with no cap (includes minions and monsters) - This will allow for #LCS BIG PLAYS while still requiring skill.

Damage ratio changed from 200% Bonus AD to 100% AP.

There, remove all his AD ratios and replaces them with AP and bonus health, cut his damage down and remove his life steal and spell vamp and you've got a tank with lots of CC and mobility, but no damage.

ladention12/17/2014, 10:15:43 PM1 votes

IKR WHY WON'T PEOPLE STFU ABOUT LEE I NEVER SEE HIM!!!

TheI3igDaddy12/17/2014, 10:43:44 PM1 votes

I think it's the Damage vs. Utility issue. He's mobile as hell but still retains strong damage on his Q and R.

I'd be fine with Lee's current kit if you give him permanent reduced vision and Tremor Sense like Rek'Sai. His E should briefly give him more vision of an area and then reverts back to the smaller radius. It gives the feeling of him actually being vision-impaired.

But of course, if Riot refuses to do that for one reason or another (coughfanbasecryingcough), then he needs to get his damage lowered, and don't give me the 'he falls off late-game' excuse. You don't pick Lee for late-game, you pick him to dump on about 90% of junglers early on while still having the ability to punt a carry back into your team later.

Arveanor12/17/2014, 10:56:20 PM1 votes

Thing is, I don't precisely care what they change, but the combination of early damage/dueling powerhouse mixed with the amount of utility he can bring in is just obnoxious. And let's not forget that the safety he gets from safeguarding out of fights should be considered a pretty big piece of power.

So if they want to mess with his utility and let him be more of a fighter assassin, then I'm fine with that, but if he wants to keep his utility/safety, he should lose some of his upfront damage at early levels.

Spacesuit Spiff12/17/2014, 11:42:03 PM1 votes

"reasonable"? most of the people who spam lee threads are just looking for something to cry about. even if this game was somehow totally balanced, they would just spam threads about whichever champ just beat them in lane (and some of them already do this).

anyway, Lee could be given the Eve treatment, where he needs to build some damage in order to do damage instead of getting ridiculously tanky and still doing damage. his earlygame is fine, his lategame sorta lacks identity right now, and making him a bit squishier late could be the first step to fixing that.

OJ19112/18/2014, 12:36:01 PM1 votes

Lee sin can no longer cancel his Q2 mid-flight

Dragon Rage no longer snares the target

Dragon Rage now kicks from the point at which Lee Sin was when he pressed R, through a line in the direction of the point at which the targeted champion is when the knockback actually goes off (ie no more bullshit where he presses R then flashes past you at the last millisecond)

maikokk12/17/2014, 3:42:54 PM1 votes

NERF LEE SIN

Earl Eulrich12/18/2014, 12:48:13 PM1 votes

Getting rid of the wardstep would be a really good start to bringing him in line - the major counterplay to Lee is that his assault in theorie is blockable by the frontline, stepping into his q. The wardstep just takes away this weakness from him. And TTT, ARAM and Dominion prove that he still is a very strong Champion in a Map without wards...but he has to plan ahead a lot more to get to a high priority target in a fight, not just jump in and jump further.

RumblesMeatballs12/17/2014, 4:25:15 PM1 votes

i don't think all the whining is entirely of his damage output tho is the thing. yes people do complain about his damage output even with a full tank build but its mostly about all of his utility. they did nerf his second E but i'm pretty sure that's the only real nerf he's ever gotten and most people just want him to get a slight kit change so he doesn't have some much mobility and damage. but i personally don't have any issues with Lee Sin so idk if these are all things people really want or if he's just another champ people will be complaining about until Riot guts him and he becomes useless

chumbler12/17/2014, 4:38:35 PM1 votes

How about you give him a fucking mana bar and take away the shit he has no reason to have especially given his absurd mobility?

Lee Sin is a champion designed by a 10 year old at a playground, not someone actually competent (Riot has none of the latter).

Axests12/17/2014, 4:53:42 PM1 votes

i believe the first step would be toning back his ult damage, the base damage that is, keeping the scaling to give him the option of building damage to get the benefit from ult or going full tank and sacrificing the damage. Honestly without a real kit rework i don't believe you can nerf lee sin without ruining him. Some stat tone backs is all he really needs (again outside of a rework)

The Ellimiist12/17/2014, 5:15:39 PM1 votes

To be its just the damage + utility of the ult. I haven't seen alot of lee sin lately but I only need a few ults single handedly disrupting + doing a ton of damage to half or entire team. Maybe just remove the part about doing same damage to people hit by the kicked target. I have no problem with high damage ult if it cant disable and kill an entire team lol

Morbiusman12/17/2014, 6:28:19 PM1 votes

I would just like a decrease to some of those ratios. A mixed tank/damage champ should not have higher ratios than a nuker mage.