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Can we give Talon's wall hop a cooldown in combat?

XYGSYS·9/25/2018, 11:49:27 PM·44 votes·14,011 views

Talon is one of the champions I really hate to play against. I have no issue with his damage or most of the kit, but I really hate his E. It is just super frustrating because I can't punish him for extending really far in his lane. It pretty much turns out that if I can't kill him before he reaches a wall he is just gone. For that reason he is practically impossible to kill in the jungle if you don't have a CC chain. If my understanding is correct, the purpose in his E is to help him roam and get in position to assassinate an enemy quickly. Using that logic, I don't think it should be able to be used as an extremely reliable escape. I think a good way to fix that would be to give his E a longer cooldown if used in combat. This would not infringe on his ability to roam, or get around the map quickly, but it would keep him from using his E to escape situations that any other champion would die in. This also wouldn't keep him from using his E to run if he saw the danger coming beforehand and started running early.

I do not play Talon, so I don't know if that might cause problems for him. This is just the best way I can imagine to remove his ability to make stupid escapes without gutting the purpose of the ability. Do you guys think that would be a fair change, or would that cause huge issues for Talon? I am willing to accept that I just need to learn how to play around him better, but I think my argument is valid.

Edit: It appears that multiple people have misunderstood what the nerf would do. It would not mean he could not use his E in combat. It would mean if he did it would have a longer cooldown. Maybe it would go from its current 2 second cooldown to 5 seconds if used in combat. So he could still use it to jump out in combat, it would just require him to run normally for a little bit before he could E again. You could also add something that would reset the in-combat timer if he got a kill or an assist. So if he successfully assassinated a target he wouldn't have any cooldown penalty for a little bit.

51 Comments

Hotarµ9/26/2018, 12:26:06 AM9 votes

The thing that annoys me the most about his E is that people will just say "Well the wall has a cooldown, so he can't escape that easily again"/"Wall is on cooldown, so now you can punish him"

Any competent Talon player isn't going to overextend or make the same mistake twice knowing the wall is off limits. It's nearly impossible to punish Talon for making mistakes aside from hard CCing him (which should never be the default counter tbh.)

TheMonkeyKiing9/26/2018, 9:05:57 AM5 votes

Dude I always thought this and I'm glad you brought it up. In the zed talon match up, I feel like it requires zed to aim very well his skillshots and get that thunderlord proc and then talon would just dash up to me and auto rake and proc thunderlords. Then if I ult, he can just ult and it makes it hard because I am a sitting duck after I ult while he is stealthed and there's the part I must actually attack after my ult or the death mark proc wont be that strong meanwhile talon doesnt have to do much after activating his ult and since he is invisible then zed death mark procs and is wasted meanwhile he kills you after with point click dash autoattack rake.

Anyway, now with the annoying ass parkour ability, not only is he good at roaming but can easily jump away to the point where a parkour guy is outrunning kassidin, a guy who is teleporting aka flashing every 5 seconds. Talon is escaping from a dude who literally goes through terrain aka kayn. Like that don't make no sense.

VoraciousX9/26/2018, 5:32:58 AM4 votes

If they do this then he shouldn't have a cooldown on walls at all(I would say 5 second in combat cooldown so it's not impossible to get away). If he's going to have a longer in combat cooldown on his E, then walls themselves shouldn't have cooldowns, as this is the reason his cooldown on his E is 2 seconds and that itself is the supposed in-combat counterplay(because he can't just flip over walls, Q you, flip back over same wall, etc). Talon's pretty hard to make work(he only even has a win rate above 50% if the game ends before the first 30 minutes of the game, at that point his win rate drops dramatically if the game ends in the next 5 minutes, goes back to close to 50% in the 5 minutes after that, and then drops dramatically again at 40+ minutes).

I mean I don't like Talon myself but this would likely be too big a nerf to not give compensation buffs to him.

LordGeovanni9/26/2018, 9:24:34 PM4 votes

Galio and Urgot arent allowed to go over walls at all with their dashes that have no wall interactions beside arbitrartly not being allowed over because riot feels like it unlike every other dash in the game. but Talon can go over walls on a 2 second cooldown with no mana cost and effected by cooldown reduction.

The thigh guy9/26/2018, 8:01:28 PM4 votes

What you don’t enjoy assassins being unpunishable in game? I mean it’s not like they can make 1 million mistakes and still get out. (Sarcasm)

But no for real, his wall jump crap makes him boarderine impossible to kill, catch, Punish or escape.

minus 25k9/26/2018, 5:24:57 AM3 votes

and add mana cost. I don't understand why it doesn't cost mana when pretty much all assassin champion's escape skill have mana/energy costs

Hibeki9/26/2018, 5:45:27 AM2 votes

Id say take some power off the rest of his kit and add it to his E. Maybe make him move faster over the walls or less cooldown, so hes less oppressive in lane but a more mobile assassin,

chicken doodle9/27/2018, 1:23:55 AM2 votes

Look, the point of Talon, the way Talon is made, is to take a kill and escape. E is not problematic as it doesn't guarantee his safety. If you are going to take away his only mobility/escape tool besides Ultimate, which he uses for 1v1s, skirmishes, and teamfights. By nerfing E, a talon would be compel him to save his ultimate for escaping. Talon has already been nerfed many times within the given month. Talon's W(Rake)'s damage is already nerfed by 45 damage if I remember correctly, and cripples his wave clear (the one that he had lol). He also received damage nerfs with the recent rune changes. Nerfing Talon again by crippling his mobility during combat would destroy Talon as a champion and would remove the uniqueness of him. I do not agree with your demands.

Frink2029/26/2018, 1:58:37 PM2 votes

If that change would be made, talon would feel like dogshit. I mean, yes, his damage is BONKERS/10 and would stay like that after this nerf. But imagine i jump the enemy janna, who is walking around alone minding her warding business, she manages to survive my initial burst with a bit of hp left and flashes a wall. Great, that in combat cooldown now prevents me from snacking that girl, it´d just feel terrible.

Fegone9/26/2018, 4:20:03 PM2 votes

I think it's fine. If you look at other assassins, most get 3 abilities plus an ult to deal damage. Talon only has 2 to do his job (plus ult) . Even Zed , his shadow , which he can use as an escape, can also be used to deal damage, because it also shoots a shuriken. So no, if you nerf him, he will be unplayable, because then he's way inferior to other assassins. the cooldown on walls/structures is already pretty high, so he cannot jump the same wall twice.

zaire909/26/2018, 8:40:34 AM2 votes

Only problem with that is Talon loses his escape which is part of the reason for his e that Im guessing you didnt know about when you mentioned the purposes for his e. Every assassin has an escape for when they assassinate their target talon wouldnt be an assassin if it couldnt be used in combat and he would just be a diver.

Somber Rites9/27/2018, 3:08:58 AM1 votes

Oughta just make it so he can't hop a wall if he's been attacked by a champion in the last 2 seconds.

Make him juke a bit instead of running face first into a wall for a free escape. The only way this would be a bad thing is if Talon is playing like a fucking ape, in which case he deserves to die.

Sire Hippington9/26/2018, 2:48:56 PM1 votes

The purpose of the abillity is to offer him an escape, which is what assasins need to be somewhat healthy. Without a somewhat reliable escape, they would be suicidal dive bombers like old talon that either obliterate theirtarget(s) in a splitsecond or are usless which is very binary.

His E has a rather high cd on the same wall, so he needs to plan his escape path, he can't just dash away like half the champion rooster, he needs to get clos to an aviable wall. And yes, in the jungle that isn't so hard to achive, but that's where he's intendet to shine. If you don't wander alone into the jungle as a squishy target with no vision on talon, then that's not a big issue. If you're on a lane, he either uses it to flank you and no longer has an escape wall, or he has to try to reach you with just a 575 range targeted jump. He pays for his mobillity near walls by haveing else the by far worst mobillity of any assasins and a rather ankward burst pattern with his passive. And even close to the jungle, he's no more save than akali with her shroud +3-4 dashes, zed and his shadows or Lb and her W+ult. Sure it's annyoing, but that's what he's supposed to do. It's no worse than tristana jumping a screen, eventually getting a reset and if needed blasting you from one base to another with her ult(yea, slightly exegerated), or kaisa getting invis and as fast as light every few sec ,then dashing over multiple screens eventually while reciveing a massive shield, or kah haveing up to 3 speedboost+invis uses with a long ranged resetting jump, or tryn spinning away 24/7 and getting 5sec immortallity if needed. They all can use that mobillity any time in any direction, talon has to plan ahead and be carefull to no just jump every wall for fast map movement as he eventually needs them as escape later, and he needs to get close to a suited wall rather than just saying 'fuck it, i'm out' and jumping away imidiatly like the rest....

Again, his wall hopping is his one big strength since the rework, and he pays alot for it. It does it's intendet job, giveing him ways to flank and escape while keeping hismobillity in the open rather low.

Noor Sakata9/26/2018, 2:54:06 PM1 votes

I wouldn't mind giving his e a 5 or 4 seconds cool down , however , if this to happen , then the cooldown on the walls has to be removed and it will create more problems

ForFoxSakes9/26/2018, 5:16:33 PM1 votes

His E is fine. it can be disrupted while he's wall hopping and the terrain is still marked then he's screwed

ZackTheWaffleMan9/26/2018, 7:02:34 PM1 votes

If the range is increased a bit (so I don't just jump to the side when I try to E over a wall), then I'd be fine with this

Bonipherus9/26/2018, 9:24:06 PM1 votes

wish i could upvote twice