We all talk about how high damage is, but can we address the CC bloat this game has?

Apocalypsic·8/21/2018, 5:36:50 AM·57 votes·16,050 views

I think part of the bad feeling in teamfights and dying very fast is honestly due to being literally unable to move for almost entire fight durations.

When I see that I've been gold carded, into ahri charm, and then into lulu polymorph ...and then someone else on my team eats the cc chain after they take me down because those cooldowns are so short... I just kind of want to beat my head into the keyboard.

Damage is oppressive yes, but being perma cc'd by most all teamcomps nowadays is completely antifun and QSS is basically useless because the minute you use it you just get CC'd again.

85 Comments

Warlord Rhinark8/21/2018, 6:43:35 AM37 votes

Can we please, stop, giving, new, champions, CC, unaffected, by, Tenacity.

PLEASE.

Why does Aatrox have 3 knockups and a displacement?

Rebonack8/21/2018, 5:57:27 AM21 votes

Hah.

Hahaha.

You weren't here for Beta or Season 1, were you?

CC is largely inconsequential compared to how it was in the past. You just feel it more because defense has deflated and offense has gone up. A second and a half of hard CC is just as nasty now as 3 seconds of hard CC used to be.

Teridax688/21/2018, 7:49:30 AM9 votes

I agree with this. CC is definitely excessive, and there are plenty of recordings now where champions remain completely unable to move, sometimes unable to take action entirely, for several seconds at a time. This tends to be the more favorable scenario, where said champion doesn't die almost immediately following the initial wave of CC. I think there are two main issues at hand: number one, CDR creep, which has affected CC in addition to many other parts of League (including damage and mobility), and number two, gratuitious CC on champions.

The first problem I think is easier to identify: cooldown reduction has become a much more common and available stat over time, to the point where it is no longer particularly difficult for any class to max out on CDR. Supports have been balanced around capping out on CDR for quite some time, but more recently we've seen the same happen to mages and tanks: at the start of League, mages were balanced around having high amounts of AP to supplement their burst, and CDR was a situational stat, one that was desirable, but that incurred heavy tradeoffs in power if one wished to opt into the stat. The stat was even more situational on tanks, who once had to go for some very, very specific items in order to obtain CDR, let alone cap out on it. As such, opting into CDR was legitimately difficult, to the point where it was often not worth it.

Cue Midseason 6, whose update to the mage class completely changed their itemization. AP on their items got severely reduced, and instead they were pushed to buy cooldown reduction and mana, with CDR becoming much more plentiful. Morellonomicon, up until then a situational item, became the must-rush core to the mage class, whereas Rabadon's Deathcap, the former core mage item, got turned into this super-expensive, ultra-specialized stat stick that was too inefficient for most people to consider buying. Mages went from averaging 20% CDR to capping pretty much in every game by design. Meanwhile, to solve the issue of some tank items being undesirable, Riot decided to slap CDR onto them, even if they contributed strictly nothing to the item's gameplay (e.g. Warmog's Armor). The addition of CDR tank items like Knight's Vow, plus the shifting of Abyssal Scepter into Abyssal Mask during the Midseason 7 Tank Update, further enabled tanks to opt into the stat with little tradeoff. The gratuitious addition of CDR into masteries, and then Runes Reforged, made the whole process even easier, even allowing players to buy too much CDR and still not suffer (i.e. with Transcendence).

All of this contributed to an environment where everyone could cast their spells more often, not unlike in URF mode. However, unlike in URF mode, there was no accompanying reduction in CC duration, or global Tenacity, so the net result was that everyone could apply CC more frequently, and thereby have more total uptime on their CC duration (especially the classes that have above-average CC, namely mages and tanks). Meanwhile, victims of CC didn't really gain that many tools to keep up in the arms race, other than some situational items and runes that don't really make the biggest difference. The fact that so much CC ignores anti-CC mechanics, i.e. displacement ignoring Tenacity, makes the matter worse.

This gets into the second problem, which is that CC is distributed liberally onto kits that strictly do not need it. Crowd control at this point is so common that champions who do not have CC, or who only have a slow or the like, are the ones deemed noteworthy. The designers for Kai'Sa were awfully proud with the fact that she had no innate CC, for example, and believed this justified the extreme amounts of mobility, burst, range and survivability in her kit. In general, CC has typically been handed out onto kits either as a feel-good reward for landing an ability, or out of synergy with some other effect, most commonly in burst mage combos. The problem with this mentality is that it fundamentally misunderstands the impact of CC in a multiplayer game: crowd control is the constraining of a character's available actions; in a multiplayer game, this means the loss or reduction of control a player has over their character. Such an experience is frustrating, and while it can be justified in the right circumstances, it requires good justification, and needs to itself be kept under strict enough control that a player should feel like they have good agency over the course of a fight. Something as basic as trying to reward landing a skillshot is therefore not proper justification, and what's worse, that kind of reasoning operates in a vacuum, where nobody else is presumed to have crowd control that would itself facilitate the landing of such an ability. This is why CC chains and wombo-combos are not uncommon, because once a champion is locked down, it's not particularly hard to pile on whichever other CC whose counterplay was that the champion on the receiving end was assumed to be able to move, or otherwise react.

Another misguided piece of design mentality that has led to today's environment is the whole notion that a champion needs crowd control to remain relevant in the game, or to avoid becoming a "ball of stats". Gangplank was given a slow on his barrels, for example, with the expressly given reason being that the developers wanted him to be able to contribute something even when really behind. Similarly, Irelia was given a disarm for the same reason. A common defense thrown against stripping any particular champion of superfluous CC is that, if they lost it, they wouldn't be able to contribute, at least not compared to X or Y champions who have CC. In effect, adding CC as a means of allowing champions to contribute has only led to an arms race, one where champions need some minimum amount of CC to be considered relevant, a minimum amount that has increased over time, particularly with more and more champions receiving knockups in the place of stuns (even the new Nunu is guilty of this, as much as I love his new kit). Even tanks are guilty of this, since Nautilus, who was once considered the upper limit for how much CC a champion was allowed to have, isn't anything special anymore. Effectively, there has been a notable amount of CC creep in champion kits, where crowd control exists on more abilities, and is frequently more difficult to counter.

Because of all this, I think we need to implement three sweeping and major changes to CC: the first is that we need to do a pass where we reevaluate all of the CC we currently have, and rebalance it to match the amounts of CDR in the game. CC currently has way too high an uptime, so CC abilities need either higher cooldowns, or lower durations. The second change is that we need to outright remove CC on many effects, perhaps even most effects in the game that currently have CC: crowd control should exist only because it is part of a champion's core intended contribution, and should not exist otherwise. A champion should not have CC simply because they synergize with it (everyone synergizes with CC), because they need some reward, or because they need to keep up with the figurative Joneses. The third is that we need to reevaluate the rules and tech behind CC: we should not be putting knockups into champion kits simply because they're stuns with special interactions with items. This should mean reevaluating Tenacity and its place in the game, but also the tech behind CC, and its interaction with effects such as gapclosers. Each type of CC should serve a clear, distinct purpose from all others, and should be picked because it serves a specific function for the champion contributing such an effect, not because of some hidden rules. CC should also be rarer the harder it affects champions, so stuns should be given only very sparingly.

A separate, fourth change I'd also like to see happen is the implementation of more anti-CC effects in champion kits, at least for some subclasses. Juggernauts especially have this theme where they're supposed to be difficult to stop, yet they're suffering the hardest from CC creep because they have no real options to deal with getting chain-CCed. Giving these champions access to unstoppability, or other mechanics where they get to resist or mitigate incoming crowd control, would not only satisfy the class's fantasy, but also allow for them to become much less binary relative to kiting. If done well, and placed under sufficient restrictions and conditions, this should also allow juggernauts to become less frustrating and more interactive to play against, as they wouldn't have to be balanced around auto-losing to kiting, and auto-winning when they do get in range. I think a general rule is that, if a champion has little to no mobility and range, and is therefore predisposed to taking the brunt of incoming crowd control, crowd control that is predicated upon being more difficult to land, but is generally easy to apply to such a champion, then that champion should be given access to tools that let them skillfully block at least some of this CC.

DW Diana8/21/2018, 9:14:09 AM7 votes

CC only feels so strong BECAUSE burst damage is so high. Think of it this way: at the beginning of last year Malzahar had 60% more damage and the 2.5 second suppression ult, yet because killing someone took about 5 seconds his suppression didn't feel so strong. Now you get CCed for a second, you're dead. Largely this isn't because of the champion doing the CC, but because those without cc have been given such high burst.

theChibiTina8/21/2018, 11:34:42 AM6 votes

Probably is this way because chain cc to death is the only way to counter the high burst because if you don't chain cc you can't burst them down in the amount out time your own cc lasts and then they just insta kill you. Both damage and cc need to be reduced. It's not fun to just sit there and slowly die because you can't move. It's not fun to be bursted down in under half a second so you don't even have time to respond. It's just not fun. Which sucks because I love this game so much.

[cass-cry]

Titanium708/21/2018, 5:09:15 PM6 votes

When I see that I've been gold carded, into ahri charm, and then into lulu polymorph

How long are you Teamfighting if you can even survive the full duration of one of them?? o_O Chogath Main? [sg-lux-2]


Jokes aside - the effect of CC is experienced much worse if your entire team dies wghle you're locked down for a second or two. So nerfing the damage will also make CC alot more bearable.

If anything you could get rid of the CDR creep which is also quite strong (although it got reduced a bit during this season) since that would also reduce the overall DMG dealt. ^^

Tetsip8/22/2018, 3:58:27 AM3 votes

Look, you're wrong, and allow me to explain to you why in a way that you'll understand.

Meow meow.

tldr; Meow

AlexOPENFIRE8/21/2018, 3:34:49 PM2 votes

in a fast-paced game , CC "must' have diminishing returns and there "should" be items to boost your CC or on the other hand , give you more teacity , forcing playees to take a Rune is not a good optionZoe right ?

imagine a team like this Karma (root) - Morgaa (snare)+(root) - lux (root)- Trundle (slow) - Teemo (blind ) ( this is a real game and i was against this comp , no amount of tenacity would compensate for this amount of cc , unless you sacrifice damage and tankiness to take tenacity runes which there aren't many options item 3111 .

Flameglow8/21/2018, 11:37:03 AM2 votes

Getting chain cc'ed and killed during that time is indeed annyoing. But it's neccessary. There are a lot of champions that will destroy your whole team if you can't chain cc them (for example master yi, katarina, riven or yasuo). The availability of cc is needed against them.

I think that most cc has enough counterplay. You can dodge it if you are not standing right in the middle of the enemy team. And there is qss and tenacity, doing great work for you.

Also those champions that rely on jumping into the middle of the enemy team are not weak either. If they are not the one doing the engage, but let someone else engage, and jump in 2-3 seconds later, most of the cc is probably used already. Additionally they can buy edge of night and qss to prepare against cc + that quite a few of them have cc counter-abilities in their kit, such as a windwall, or the alpha strike to become untargetable. If damage is lowered cc-chains also will become weaker.

(As a fellow riven player, I know your pain, but still, counterplay is needed)

KmSneaky8/21/2018, 3:27:54 PM2 votes

Make bump/knockups cc affected by tenacity. Problem solved.

ModCaptainMårvelous8/21/2018, 7:44:34 PM2 votes

CC bloat isn't the issue. Displacement CC is.

Improve old/normal CC, reduce displacement and boost tenacity to be better and boom, problem solved.

rtbf2216514128/21/2018, 3:14:43 PM1 votes

CC stalls damage output. It kinda goes both ways.

Irelia Bot8/22/2018, 4:54:38 AM1 votes

CC outside of Ahri and Noc buffs has been generally getting reduced throughout the years.

Fiddle's fear use to be 3 seconds and the same with Rammus tanut.

Leblanc and Talon both has silence but neither has that now.

That being said the amount of CC that you can do nothing about has been generally increasing. This is due to tenacity still not effective knockups and knockbacks.

And while CC might not be increasing in duration on any grand scale Damage is notably higher than it was and damage you can not build to counter is much higher and now even on items.

9NINE8/22/2018, 5:02:12 AM1 votes

cc was countered by tanks if you didn't know

PaladinNO8/22/2018, 6:01:46 AM1 votes

Not to mention so many champions has a knock-up now, which tenacity is useless against.

Spank the Fox8/22/2018, 3:21:08 PM1 votes

Riddle me this:

Only 6-7 champions have absolutely zero form of CC (no slows, nothing at all).

If most champions get the same amount of CC in their kit for their respective class (mages usually 1, brusiers 2-3, tanks up to 4), and you can only draft 10 champions per game, is CC actually going up in a given match?

In cases like Aatrox, he isn’t expected to land all his knock ups and his pull is easily countered.

In Zoe’s case, is being hit by her bubble much different than being hit by Ahri’s charm? Nauts CC vs Ornns CC. Pyke vs Thresh.

Your example alone includes champions that have been in the game for years and been doing this for years. Now it’s suddenly a problem because...?

(Hint: because damage is too high, not CC)

DeusVult8/22/2018, 5:51:43 PM1 votes

CC stacking or chaining has always been a part of this game, and if you aren't tanky enough to survive a possible CC chain then you are out of position.

Lack of proper positioning is no reason to change the way that CC chaining works. It feels bad for the person who is CC chained, but they had the option to not be there or wait to engage until possible CC skills have been used.

If anything the game could use a reduction in the amount of CDR available, along with how tenacity works in regards to knock-ups (not displacements) and possibly having tenacity reduce any CC applied in a chain beyond the first by a slightly larger amount.