The issue with Deathfire Touch

Rivini·1/30/2016, 3:02:39 AM·55 votes·10,397 views

http://i.imgur.com/JMBQmuk.png

As someone who loves DoT damage, I became instantly attracted to this mastery. Additional DoT magic damage on any mage I play! At first, I wanted to use this for certain AD champions as well, but quickly realized it's not the best idea. :|

Anyway, I want to be able to take this mastery on any mage I play and not feel bad about it, as if I should have Thunderlord's Decree instead because reasons. I was thinking about why it feels bad to go for DFT and not the FotM, especially on a DoT mage like Malzahar (my main mage) who additionally has physical damage from voidlings, when I realized what the real issue is.

Both of the 3rd tier 5-point masteries in Ferocity are much weaker than the flat armor/MR pen mastery in the Cunning tree. This alone is a valid reason for many to go for Thunderlord's Decree over DFT.

Yes, % pen is better against enemies who invest in a lot of armor/MR, but 7% is very little (7 armor or MR ignored for every 100!). Needless to say, it's garbage against squishies, unlike flat pen. Who are the ones to focus in fights: tanks or the squishy damage dealers?

The amount you gain from the flat pen mastery, plus the fact you get both forms of pen, makes it have more of an impact on anyone you play and play against since the magic pen compliments the TD proc. The % pen can be easily acquired from Void Staff or one of the Last Whisper items, which are typical to buy for any high-damage dealer anyway, unlike most flat pen items. What's worse is If you have the 7% magic pen mastery, you lose about 3% from it after it's stacked multiplicatively with Void Staff (35% --> 39.5%). That's not a major increase in damage. Flat magic pen is almost always much more attractive to go with Void Staff because of this.

The % pen masteries need to be buffed to compete with the flat pen mastery. Simple as that.

The best solution in my opinion is to combine the two into one (like with the flat pen mastery and what we had last season), both values increased to 10%, and introduce a new mastery in the same tier that does something different for those who want one of the Ferocity keystone masteries but don't want % pen.

An alternative (or addition?) is to give DFT level scaling damage so it can directly compete with TD. I don't see why TD can have it but not DFT. The scaling amount doesn't need to be the same as TD. Start at 5 base damage and increase by 5 per level (90 at level 18). Heck, I would even accept 3 damage per level (if starting at 5, 56 at level 18). That should be reasonable. Keep in mind TD has 180 base damage at level 18, making it incredibly effective even on tanky fighters. I don't see DFT with higher base damage making it stupid strong, even with its current AP/AD scalings. By that point in the match, the damage would still be diminished considerably with merely one major MR item, like it is now. The level scaling would only help nudge it to become more of a valid alternative to TD for mages who can't use TD as effectively as others.

65 Comments

Becky Lynch1/30/2016, 3:21:42 AM20 votes

This has been the problem the whole time. Flat Pen is considerably stronger at all stages of the game, especially flat Hybrid Pen. It's known that this is the problem, you can find it in the Patch Breakdown that includes Meteos. Where he says that this is the real problem.

Quepha1/30/2016, 3:44:26 AM10 votes

Deathfire needs some level scaling and a longer duration on aoe spells. Fervor is comparable to Thunderlord's and in some instances is clearly better but Deathfire is just garbage unless you have a very rare DoT or single target spell.

Ixoziel1/30/2016, 3:37:53 AM4 votes

The percent masteries aren't bad AT ALL. I'll list the real reasons that deathfire isn't viable.

Thunderlord's gets a massive amount of damage just from per level bonuses (+10 per level). Deathfire gets a static eight, nothing else. Since you don't have bonus AD or AP early game (MAYBE 30 ap, maybe 10-20 ad from starting runes masteries), deathfire is going to do very little, if any, damage in the starting lane. You won't get ANY more damage until you go back to the base to shop, and even then, many champs don't rush flat AP or AD items.

Throw in the fact that it gets horribly penalized if you're using AOE or dot spells, and it's just not good. It really needs a scaling base damage, and HIGHER base damage, to make it worthwhile. It's just silly that thunderlords outclasses it so hard in the damage department when thunderlords doesn't require items and it's instant. Yes it has a cooldown, but the thing is, you don't just sit there in lane trading constantly. Realistically, the cooldown doesn't matter that much.

Sneakyy XD1/30/2016, 3:28:20 AM4 votes

So your issue with DFT has nothing to do with DFT.

Rebonack1/30/2016, 4:36:07 AM4 votes

Real talk, move the hybrid flat pen over to the ferocity tree. Have it paired up with the hybrid %Pen mastery so you can get one or the other.

Then create a new burst-focused mastery for Cunning. Flat pen helps with all damage. Not just burst.

Make Thunderlord's single target. Give Deathfire base damage per level and adjust its ratios accordingly. Make Deathfire do full damage on AoE abilities.

Want AoE damage and/or sustained damage?

Get Deathfire.

Want burst damage?

Get Thunderlord's.

Super simple stuff.

PrometheS1/30/2016, 4:03:15 AM3 votes

It should be 10% Mpen or 10% ArPen and the trees would be comparable.

TotalJerk1/30/2016, 5:02:23 PM3 votes

Thunderlords needs to stop triple procing off of single spells and double procing off of bonus auto damage.

ModKnightsKemplar1/30/2016, 3:18:11 AM2 votes

I don't disagree. I think it's an option, and I'm willing to bet it's been been discussed behind closed doors at Riot. Hopefully they come up with some good solutions soon.

Scramrail1/30/2016, 12:38:02 PM2 votes

To be honest, this seems like its just a side effect of riots apparent dislike of mages and AP specific champions in general at the moment. Almost every change they've made throughout the pre-season and start of season is geared towards making the lives of AP champions more difficult while making AD champions lives easier.

Conspiracy theories aside though, I feel like Thunderlords and Deathfire could both be far better balanced numbers wise if riot gave up this idiotic notion of allowing these keystones to be viable for both AD and AP champions. AD champions have two keystones that are useless to AP champions (Warlords and Fervor) while AP champions have literally 0 keystones that are specifically designed for them.

Wînter Fox1/30/2016, 4:58:23 PM2 votes

My issue is that Riot refuses to make one mastery specifically for Mages/AP. DFT is very obviously supposed to be the AOE/Sustained Mage mastery, so why not get rid of the AD all together and actually make it worth while for Mages? I don't see magic damage on Fervor of Battle or Warlord's Bloodlust.

Alsek1/31/2016, 5:31:05 AM2 votes

I feel like the main problem with it is that it lacks significant base damage compared to TLD.

AP scaling doesn't really help you during a lot of laning phase.

You can use TLD to great effect from level 1.

junglerboy161/30/2016, 3:30:00 PM1 votes

Dither touch is actually designed for poke heavy mages, and is specifically tuned to NOT be the go-to for DoT mages. A single target, one-hit proc of DFT deals 8 (+25% AP) (+60% Bonus AD), which is a massive boost to anyone with a single target poke ability coughnidalee&cocough.

As for the % pen masteries being too weak compared to the flat pen, I can't agree more. By their very nature, the % pen scales throughout the game, so buffing the value would not increase its early game strength in any significant way. A % pen value of around 15% would be much more viable as an alternative to flat pen, since it allows it to at least scale into being equivalent in strength late game.

Sohleks1/30/2016, 6:11:53 PM1 votes

Well in addition to precision being better always unless your target gets double major resistance against you...

Thunderlords is easy to apply (hit champion 3 times!) Brings a sizeable chunk of damage based on your level. Benefits apply earlier in the game to contribute to snowball for your average player

All of the ferocity keystone require much more specific conditions to be good. Fervor requires a melee champ with strong attack speed or auto reset mechanics or a ranged champion with high free fire time... Warlords is very niche, and requires a champion to build crit and desire in combat sustain gains... DFT requires a very high uptime on ability usage. DFT also requires you stack up an offensive stat to scale....

All ferocity keystones have the potential to outscale thunderlords (which imo should be pitched to be a more early bonus with ferocity superscaling past it). In practice though there are champions out there that cannot make consistent use of any ferocity keystone outperforming thunderlords as all the ferocity keystones have been balanced around abuse/ optimal cases...

And in other note why does windspeaker's provide so much free resists but provide so little in terms of actual shield/heal bonus. Looks like hidden power to me. Would it kill anyone if the mastery was a niche on self sustain champion who aren't making use of the other half? It's right next to stormraider's and thunderlords anyways..

Things like that... hardlocking the masteries to specific champions & mechanics is what is limiting the mastery system. Nobody is choosing masteries tailoring to their goal in the game. It is entirely "which keystone is most OP/ least shit for my champion?"

At least with the old trees I could optimally gear my fighter melee champ as 21-9-0, 15-15-0 ish, 9-21-0 or 5-25-0 depending on how much 1v1 dueling or facetanking I could do with it. (defense was really good for any melee in the constant 5v5 of aram, while offense tended to edge out in laning phase in SR). Now it's all about the keystone on top, which is simply about how well your champ abuses it. See Undying Grasp Gangplank.

ChaoticPinecone1/30/2016, 7:48:44 PM1 votes

I honestly believe its because people arent using it correctly.

I think DFT was balanced around its synergy with Corrupting Potion at early levels. At level 1, youll do about 11 damage per poke landed if its AoE (Single target is closer to 16). Compare that to Thunderlords, which does 10 damage as burst after 3 spells/attacks.

Later DFT is balanced around its synergy with Liandries. If you play a champ that likes Liandries (I main Zyra) and manage to hold on to your corrupting potion, youll be doing a lot of burn damage. For example, if you build Ryalis and Liandries on Zyra, she gets around 200 AP. If you manage to get a plant to attack a target, its 58 damage from the DFT, another 20-25 from Corrupting based on level, and then the 4% current health from Liandries which i estimate to be around 50-100 damage (50 at 1250 HP, 100 at 2500). So a whopping total of around 150-200 from burn damage alone from 1 plant attack (its around 125-175 if you hit with a spell). Combine that with all her spells doing AoE applying the burn to multiple members, her plants refreshing the burn, and her kiting playstyle with the Rylais, she can easily hit 300 burn damage to a single target in a teamfight.

Theres a reason why I end up doing carry-levels of damage as support Zyra with only a Ryalis and Liandries lategame. As long as your team (and the enemy team) doesnt instantly explode, you do a lot of "side" damage. Its not as bursty and you generally dont get too many kills, but you set up your team to clean up.

N0TY0U1/30/2016, 8:38:30 PM1 votes

I really hope riot notice your thread. The Ferocity Keystones are already very good masteries. The main problem is that the Tier 5 ferocity masteries are so bad(Battering Blows and Piercing Thoughts) compared to their counter parts. Sometime I want to use Fervor of battle or Deathfire Touch on Evelynn. But if I do, I get less penetration that only applies to half of my damage, doesn't help my kill my preferred targets and doesn't improve my jungle clears.

Swae71/31/2016, 3:47:34 AM1 votes

So many words couldn't read... But if I get what u are saying, it needs a buff

TeCoolMage1/31/2016, 3:53:11 AM1 votes

Your math is a bit off... It would be 44.45%, multiplicative stacking always beats additive stacking.

Stars Shaper2/3/2016, 10:21:35 AM1 votes

The issue is that DFT is golden for single target and dot mages while others don't get a single boon by building it.

ImperialKain1/31/2016, 10:10:44 AM1 votes

I been wonder. If they should just buff Deathfire Touch by adding something from the older mastery tree with some scaling. Like adding something like the old mastery Arcane Blade for a % of your ap (maybe ad to) into the DFT on-hit damage to everything from champions to minions and spell apply the dot damage as normal. Then maybe KogMaw would take it and get it nerf or something.

FakeGravity1/30/2016, 4:10:55 PM1 votes

Simple solution: give it a scaling damage let's say 10-40 at level one and 18 BUT it can only deal the higher of the two (the base or the derived from ability power and bonus attack damage) it gives champions that don't build early ability power a fighting chance while staying relevant

agbudar2/1/2016, 2:00:21 AM1 votes

well there is ofc the fact that dft has no cooldown and thunderlords has a whopping 35 sec CD.