Boards›Gameplay

Janna's Passive - How to nerf Janna while improving the feel and impact of Tailwind

Mârty·2/25/2016, 2:01:00 AM·49 votes·5,419 views

Janna A SUMMARY OF THE NEW PASSIVE'S TOOL TIP IS AT THE VERY BOTTOM! Janna

Janna has had a history of problematic, boring, hidden power passives. From the global movement speed aura, to the local movement speed aura, to now a disengage-focused aura, they have all skewed her power level and win rate by providing free stats to her team. Janna players and her team mates often don't appreciate her passive's power (which equates to a value of about 316g per champion if using aether wisp as a base). If Janna receives a more interactive, skill-based passive that really focuses on her "disengage" role, we can remove unnecessary free power from her kit and expand on her decision making tree, as well as her opponent's potential to outplay her.

Design issues of Tailwind:

  • Not unique to Janna, you can literally buy a better version of her passive in the store for 450g.
  • Hidden, free power. Players benefit from this passive without thinking about it or appreciating it (skews her win-rate).
  • Little synergy with her kit (doesn't even scale like the rest of her utility).

Positives of Tailwind that can be reserved:

  • Enforces her fantasy of "disengage".
  • Affects movement speed.

This is not the first time I've proposed a change to Janna's passive. Whenever she gets too popular or her win rate is consistently high (season 6 has been kind to her), I make a similar thread and discuss her passive again. While taking a shower today, I think I've come up with a pretty good, new passive for her. While some decisions need to be made design-wise, I'm confident this passive is a huge improvement on any of my previous ideas.

Please note: Numbers tuning comes later in the design process, if we can get to that point we'll worry about the specifics then! Focus on the mechanics and concept of the passive for now.

Janna New Passive - Tailwind

When Janna applies crowd control to an enemy champion with one of her abilities (knock-up (Q), slow(W), knock-back(R)), she emits an aura (1250 Range) for a duration based on the spell used which grants nearby allies 15/20/25% (+0.01*AP) (level 1/7/13) movement speed while moving towards her.

Subsequent crowd control applications while the aura is active will extend its duration.

**Howling Gale - ** Duration of Tailwind aura is equal to 1s + 0.66s * seconds charged (max 3s)

Zephyr - Duration of Tailwind aura is 2 seconds.

**Monsoon ** If an enemy champion is knocked back, she will emit Tailwind's aura for 2 seconds.

  • **New Effect ** While channeling healing winds, allies will receive Tailwind's movement speed bonus regardless of direction, but only within the healing winds.

How is this a better experience for Janna players, her team mates, and her opponents?

Janna players now have conscious access to another disengage tool, a running theme of Janna. Because it's focused on combat-specific situations, as well as forcing the Janna player to actively do some disengaging first (landing her CC), we can make it so much more powerful than the always-on passive she has now. Additionally, we've provided the Janna player a new dimension to her ultimate - we give Janna players a new reason to channel her ultimate, with great rewards that are bound to her cooldowns. Her team mates will be able to appreciate the now noticeable movement speed, and the Janna player will be rewarded for good use of her kit (A fully charged Howling Gale extends the duration of the aura by 50%!).

Her opponents will also have opportunities to out play this passive. Previously, chasing a Janna and her team can get frustrating as her passive is pretty good at preventing successful chases. If we tie her passive to Janna actively landing CC, it allows her opponents to not only play around Janna's cooldowns (She blew her CC, we can engage easily now!), but also to actively avoid her CC to prevent the movement speed aura from even happening (Dodge her tornado and we can catch her team mate now!). Spellshields, Blackshield, and any sort of cc prevention would not count as movement impairment and therefore would prevent the activation of Tailwind.

On top of that, if Janna does miss her tornado, and her ultimate is not available (it has a high cooldown so this situation will frequently occur), she must use her W to activate her passive to save a team mate. Zephyr (W) slows Janna when its used, so the only 100% guaranteed, low cooldown CC available on her kit is also risky to use. If Janna chooses to simply double tap howling gale for an easy landing, the movement speed aura duration might not be enough to save her team mates.

TL;DR - Opponents now have an active means of engaging on a Janna who plays poorly, and skilled Janna players have access to a new tool that synergizes with her kit and has awesome playmaking potential.

What if this makes her too strong/even stronger than now? This passive sounds really powerful!

This change will, in any case, result in progress towards a more fun, fair, and exciting Janna kit. If this passive proves that her old, free stats passive was not a big source of free power, there are plenty of dimensions where her new passive can be fine-tuned and reduced in effectiveness without influencing the feel-good parts. (Change the duration, movement speed, aura range, how much work Janna has to input for a strong passive etc.).

Personally, I'm confident this passive would reduce her win rate. Keep in mind how an always-active 8% movement speed aura can skew a game. If Janna starts walking towards baron, and her team is right behind, and they get there just in time for a good baron fight, that movement speed aura won the game for her.

With this new passive, there's no roaming potential at all. If anything, this passive might expose Janna's true weaknesses and allow Riot to give her more power in the actual interesting parts of her kit.

Worst Case Scenario - We have a fun new passive that we can fine tune to reduce her power while preserving the fun parts.

Best Case Scenario - We expose how much her old passive consumed her power budget, and can make the awesome parts of her kit more awesome!

TL;DR Positives for this proposed passive:

  • Limits Janna's Tailwind to in-combat situations
  • Synergizes with her kit (encourages charged howling gales, offers a new dimension to Monsoon)
  • Allows for more powerful movement speed effects -> noticeable and appreciated by all players
  • Allows for opponents to play around her disengage, offering outplay potential (If she has no mana or has used all her cooldowns, she has no disengage at all available).
  • Exposes her old passive's power budget consumption.
  • Offers a passive that can be fine-tuned without completely gutting how it feels for the player.
  • Enforces her "disengage" theme.
  • SEPARATES THE GOOD JANNAS FROM THE GREAT JANNAS

I look forward to hearing feedback on this proposed new passive!

**There's some frequent concern about the tooltip size/complexity, so here's exactly what it would look like in a tool tip! **(Assume level 1 Janna)

Janna Tailwind Whenever Janna applies crowd control to an enemy champion with one of her abilities, she emits an aura for 2 seconds which grants nearby approaching allies 15(+0)% movement speed. Subsequent crowd control applications extend the duration of the aura.

Howling Gale - New Effect Tailwind's aura duration starts at 1 second, and increases for each second charged up to a maximum of 3 seconds.

Monsoon - New Effect Allies within the heal zone receive Tailwind's aura benefit regardless of direction.

55 Comments

Holynova2/25/2016, 3:09:05 AM8 votes

I like where you're leaning towards with this but my only issue is that Janna receives no benefit to herself for this , if anything I'd feel like she would need a little buff somewhere else in her kit . Perhaps a lower tornado cooldown or increase its width and distance it travels further depending on charge time.

Witch2/25/2016, 4:01:49 AM5 votes

Definitely a good way to make her gameplay more active rather than aura-botish. I can see the new passive allowing for a lot of interesting and dynamic team fight movement!

The Yetii Rider2/26/2016, 1:28:11 AM4 votes

"Separates the good ____ from the bad ____"

As a former Sona main, just reading these words again has put me on tilt.

Mysticman892/25/2016, 5:06:31 AM3 votes

I've been under the impression that her current passive and the captain enchantment stacked (although I don't know how the math works with it re: additive/multiplicative), so picking on the passive for being comparable to captain enchant feels unfair since she's still the only champ who can bring both. Lots of other passives are comparable to relatively cheap items (e.g. nasus gets lifesteal comparable to a vamp sceptre or two depending on level), so being relatively boring design isn't on it's own a strong reason to change it.

I feel like they [riot] expressed when they last changed her passive that it was desirable to have Jannas have an incentive to charge in with the front line (e.g. allowing her current passive to do work), where her relative squishyness could put her out of the fight promptly (or force her to burn peel/shields on herself instead of a carry). With this new passive, her teamfight positioning would more or less be 'sit on the most fed carry, spam shields, q/ult if necessary' instead of anything potentially more dynamic (although I appreciate that something along those lines is often what is currently done anyway).

Another minor issue is that there's a lot of text in that passive, and with Riots focus on clarity, a simple 'Allied champs move faster when towards her' is easy to understand by all, while the new one has a lot of subtleties that players less familiar with game mechanics might not immediately grok.

Those are mostly just minor nitpicks though, I suspect a passive tweak would be more appealing than fiddling with the rest of her kit, and something along the lines of what you propose would probably be an agreeable way to get her win rate down for less adept Janna players. (And as a Janna main who still opts for the talisman line instead of FQC like all the cool kids use, it'd probably just be a straight buff to my particular Janna playstyle since I could still use the Talisman active to hustle the team towards contestable objectives, so that's neat.)

Abyssphere2/25/2016, 3:55:54 AM3 votes

"Hidden power, players benefit from this passive without thinking about it or appreciating it (skews her win-rate)."

I'd be interested in hearing why hidden power is a cause of a skewed win rate, because given how impactful Janna's kit is in general I do not believe that Riot having to make her overtuned to make her kit enjoyable is a problem here. I'm willing to accept the idea that her passive is too hard to notice/not very fun but I don't see the balance concern.

I would flat out disagree that her current passive is entirely hidden power given that there is decent gameplay around it now and it actually has visuals to boot, but that's a matter of opinion I guess.

Jorencice2/25/2016, 3:12:57 AM2 votes

Booooo janna nerfs.

GameMemo2/25/2016, 4:53:38 PM2 votes

Time to step 2 !!! PBE HERE I COME !!! Janna summoner 6

Sugar Momma2/25/2016, 6:53:38 PM1 votes

This is a fantastic idea!!

rtbf2256182412/25/2016, 7:56:14 PM1 votes

The range is too big and you could chain-cc for a 3 second boost.

For the rest i can somewhat agree on but i still think it wouldn't be anything too special.

DarkRitual2/26/2016, 2:42:00 AM1 votes

How about giving stacks for spell casts that decay over time instead? Q gives 1+1/second charged, W gives 2, E gives 1 stack. Monsoon consumes all stacks to additionally boost movespeed of allies in the range by an amount based on stacks consumed. This would be a significant ult buff, so to neutralize things out, make Zephyr's +%movespeed passive scale with the amount of stacks Janna has instead of a Base+Ap ratio.

v good pupper2/26/2016, 4:18:04 AM1 votes

So it's basically her current passive, but now it has downtime? It's basically a massive nerf with the exception of the Monsoon interaction, and it's still hard to appreciate.

Madra2/26/2016, 9:06:07 AM1 votes

As a Janna main, I am remarkably lukewarm to this suggestion. I don't want Janna balanced around her passive, and every time they buff her, it's only because they want to make an excuse to nerf her down the road. Overall it seems a tad bit too much. The base movement value seems too high; and the AP scaling wouldn't seem high enough. You get 275 AP... a sizeable amount for a Janna; and your passive goes from 25% to 27%? That's not much incentive to introduce a scaling mechanic to it. I understand that Janna passive and Captain's Enchant already adds up to a significant amount of movement, but neither Talisman nor Captain's Enchant are going to be removed so that Janna can enjoy exclusivity here.

If you are linking a new disengage tool directly to disengage tools that she already has, what new window of power are you actually adding to play around? Janna can still just buy Captain's Enchant for pretty much the same effect as her old passive. The lane dynamic would change a lot too, allowing the jungler to engage much more rapidly, but I'd have to play with it first to really get a feel for it.

To say nothing of the fact that a fully charged Howling Gale with max CDR is only on Cooldown for about 4 seconds before it can be charged up again. That's not a huge amount of time for an enemy to engage. It took a long time before Riot acquiesced and allowed Janna's tornado to start cooling off immediately. If you are insistent on empowering Janna to play around new windows of opportunity to engage/disengage around, that almost certainly would be sacrificed.

Her ultimate used to have a slow attached to it. It lasted for about one patch before it was changed, and they made sure to nip some of her other power while they were at it. Adding a massive omni-directional movement buff to it is going to make it far too powerful. Getting very close to what was tried in the past and I doubt that it would work any better now. Maybe the game has changed enough that Monsoon can have additional power tacked on to it, but I doubt it.

If you feel like you need to run away faster, a Janna can easily get away with buying a Talisman. Janna passive isn't exclusive to her, thanks to the boots enchant. Regardless if you prefer this new passive or the old passive, the enemy team can itemize for additional movement speed, ghosts and other items for additional engage, or the enchant for additional disengage.

I remember playing Janna back when I could max Howling Gale first and no one would have a coronary if I sent it down their lane. Now I grab 1 CS so I can have enough gold to buy a sightstone before I B and it's always "???" or "WTF!". I miss carrying games on her, when I would have over 1k of AP, and she was considered the worse champion in the game. If Janna were to get a new passive, I'd prefer one that doesn't simulate what items in the game already currently do. But honestly, history has shown that big changes to Janna have never ended well. I'd rather see outstanding issues effecting the marksmen class addressed before we decide on nerfing/buffing Janna.

Troll for Trump2/26/2016, 9:11:10 AM1 votes

How about allies gain movement speed whenever one of her abilities passes through them? If she or an ally walks over the pathway of her Q, they gain MS, if she E's herself, a turret, or an ally, they get MS, her R also gives MS.

She could be like a gentle, supporting breeze.

Or make AP janna better.

Deus Imperator2/26/2016, 2:17:33 PM1 votes

No thanks

Why touch Janna passive when there are other champs who got free stats passives? such as garen regen,veigar MP regen,nasus lifesteal,shyvana armor

Please touch anything else but her speed, thats the main charm of why i play her, i dont care if you tone down her shield AD buff,her tornado damage,her shield strength or anything else really

Thats one of the main reasons i play janna the "gotta go fast" or "Catch me if you can feeling"

Why are you specifically targeting her passive?

Uiraya2/25/2016, 5:13:12 AM1 votes

Riot has been trying to destroy Janna for years now and they still haven't managed it. Don't encourage them to keep trying.

WadeWilson13372/25/2016, 9:05:27 AM1 votes

Im not sure how to nerf Janna, but jesus christ, EVERY SINGLE game that i watch a streamer play in Masters+, there is a Janna. Every. single. game. Im just so tired of seeing her, its the same thing as Ezreal. Yeah they are both strong but not strong enough to ban so you're forced to let people play these strong champions where they have probably spammed the living shit out of them because they are always available. Its just frustrating to see so much lack of diversity at the highest bracket of play.

Auryiel2/25/2016, 12:53:48 PM1 votes

This sounds like a really fun passive, but at this point I'm not sure why it's necessary to have her allies move towards her to gain movement speed.

Not only is there already a lot to know about the passive (it works inside her ultimate, its duration scales differently with each ability, you get it in every direction while she channels), but there's also a lot of player involvement. Making the bonus based on where Janna is and where her allies are seems both unnecessary and far too restricting.

Only other complaint would be that this would feel a lot like a Sona E, but that's something I personally could live with, especially considering how little the two characters overlap.

Swaglyth2/25/2016, 3:51:51 PM1 votes

Hey, Janna Mechanics, Solyth here. I've got you give you credit for putting your idea out there and allowing criticism, kudos to you. I really hope changes such as these come to pass, but I don't think they would work. I'll be devil's advocate and try to see if I can learn anything along the way. I'll get right to brass tacks.

I have a hard time admitting this solves a much more underlying problem. If we're simply to gauge general win-rate as a measure of balance, we have to take in other factors such as win-rates in competitive, and even solo-Que win-rates at different tiers of play. It seems like you've been at this a long time, but it sounds like you believe these changes are needed more because her win-rate is high and less because you're unsatisfied with her position in the League.

It feels like the base issue you're attempting to solve is fixing Janna's winrate, not inherent problems in her kit.

I'd like to leave philosophy of balance to the thinkers, but in short, will nerfing everyone's sub-par abilities, in this case Janna's passive, resulting in a drop to a 50% win-rate make LoL equitable? Sure, the changes suggested make her passive more dynamic, but do next to nothing to Janna herself. Her essence is still kept the same, and it's that jack-of-all-trades, shield spamming safety that keeps her more than relevant. Just like no array of nerfs to Nidalee spears in Season 4 could solve her reward-without-risk playstyle midlane barring a total rework to her damage application, Janna is stuck in a similar boat.

My point is, I don't think even these levers are enough. Janna hasn't had an update since 5.17, and she hasn't gotten any attention now until the meta suited her. As with Rengar, nerfs to his Q, W, or E don't fix the problem many had with his ult. They help fix Rengar but not his ult. Now, after 6.4, he fails to appear in the meta.

It seems the meta shifted around Janna simply because she one of the best savior-support out there, comparable to Soraka even, and gives a mechanical equivalent to a Sterak's Gage to ADCs with her shield. We're nearing a situation where Janna's colleagues can't keep up, literally, with or without captain boots. That sounds perilously close to Lucian's issues.

From patch 6.4 regarding Lucian "but he's never had a very well defined weakness. This leads to situations where a popular Lucian shuts out similar champions entirely"

If Janna is the "Disengage Queen", why does she excel at everything else as well? Why is her kit so reliable? Simply put, this hurts support diversity, just like Lucian hurts Marksman diversity. She cannot have that reliability. This is why Riot has previously made nerfs to her reliability specifically, like in 5.17 by making her Q shorter on minimum cast or her ult heal less. An ult from Janna can full heal her entire team. Shouldn't that be Soraka's identity? Janna ultimate could incorporate shielding, blocking/diverting projectiles, giving buffs, any number of things we know is possible with "balanced" mechanics such as Bard R, Tahm W, Morgana E, Yasuo W to look at. Janna shield could provide different effects or stats. Morgana's black shield seems to do so.

Regardless, if we want to create a design that encourages counter-play, we must make substantial changes at the core.

I would rather Janna have a purpose than be a jack of all trades, passive temporary or no. The temporary passive offer doesn't provide Janna herself with weaknesses susceptible to counter-play. God forbid the usage of Janna's W gives her and her allies a "speed de-buff" like Blitzcrank's W because the heart of the matter is never looked at after a million tiny refinements. The proposed changes might fix Janna's win-rate while keeping her enjoyable to Janna mains, but pulling the levers later will only make her feel ineffective or too effective, even to the worst and best Janna players out there.

TL:DR -More dynamic changes, perhaps even in tandem with the provided modifications are required to make counter-play more approachable and adjust Janna to the new meta.

-As a Janna main myself, I hope these changes come to pass and it fixes everything.

-As a cynic, I simply do not believe these changes mentioned would solve Janna's kit from the growing "Lucian Effect" Janna has upon the League.

Also, now that you've revealed Janna's "hidden power passive", is it really hidden anymore? If people know about it, appreciation and praise can be given. Regardless of what happens, I know I'll always give props to a man with good Janna Mechanics.

SpecterVonBaren2/25/2016, 5:04:09 PM1 votes

I'd say the free 50 AD from her shield is more hidden and polarizing power than her passive has ever been.

Iqqi2/25/2016, 5:07:09 PM1 votes

Yeah I have no problem with Janna today. Yeah sure she has disengage, but like every other match it comes down to champ select. Enemy team picks Janna support you should know you are going to need engage. There are a huge number of solutions to this, but if your team just picks whatever they want instead of picking to counter then yes you deserve to have Janna do what she does. It is the same way with every champion in the game.

People complaining about Kog'Maw sure his damage is freaking insane, but if your team doesn't have people who can jump on him or your team just decides to focus the tanks than A. you deserve to get slaughtered by him and you failed in champ select. Even after his change this statement still applies.