@Riot state of Nasus in season 6

Carnarius··14 votes·9,148 views

nasus is a champion that has been hit directly and indirectly multiple times in the past 3 seasons. nerfs for tank items, buffs for ad items (especially implementing black cleaver), making the game faster, introducing refreshed juggernauts (funny fact, as nasus is juggernaut after all, yet patch 5.16 made him completely unviable) and many many more changes that made him what he is now, pretty much only jungler dependant champion, which is completely random.

From the point of view of high elo nasus main with hundreds of games with him, what things look like:

for early game: -he can't farm as he used to do, as he gets bullied out of lane too easily by majority of champions right now. this was different, but recent reworks, armor nerfs and overall favourizing damage over tankiness changed it heavily -he can't trade, for obvious reasons So for early game, he can't do pretty much rather than trying to somehow farm, and hoping for not being killed in 1v2 situation under turret

for mid game: after rough early in most cases, there is not much nasus can do. he can either try to splitpush, which will have poor effect as almost every team starts the game with 1-2 teleports, or he can try to teamfight, which is probably the best idea as he reaches his biggest powerspike in mid game. this is illusion though, comparing to other juggernauts, his potential is very limited and easily counterable. his slow can and will be cleansed if cast onto adc, and after that he becomes just a bag of walking hp, as he won't reach his main targets, and the only thing he would do is targeting tanks and providing a bit of aoe damage from his ult

for end game: contrary to popular belief, nasus end game is really poor. it's purpose lies in huge amount of stacks (most likely 600-800+), but it can't be used if he can't reach primary targets, which is nearly impossible. even if enemy team doesn't have too many tools for stoping him, items like rylai will make sure he will not do anything more than hitting tanks for 250 damage per q. so the main possibility is splitpush yet again, but as i said it's limited, besides, he most likely won't be able to duel even 1 defending champion (riven, fiora, darius, gnar), as black cleaver is just too powerful right now and provides too much power in an end game fantasy

so in conclusion, there is no point to pick nasus right now. basically all of top lane champions have way more tools for being both dangerous and tanky, while still having great late game. nasus has neither of them, and even if he gets ahead with jungler help, he got outclassed in terms of both teamfighting and providing utility for his team. but the real problem is, current preseason changes look even more dreadful for him: -changing triforce for being more adc oriented item (this is his core item, and after change it will be WAY worse) -introducing rift herald, which will make top lane a bit more objective oriented and bit less of an island (which is exactly opposite what nasus player wants) -nerfing defensive mastery tree (no crit damage reduction, no flat armor/magic resist, no 4% aoe dmg reduction and few more) -implementing items that will deal with him even more effectively (new last whisper, for example)

with all these indirect nerfs, i'm worried that nasus will turn from not worth picking right now to something words cannot describe. i believe he needs some kind of compensation, like improving his kit like you did with other juggernauts (they all have now way to heal themselves), or just increasing his base stats and stats per level so they could match with stats of reworked champions (in all honesty, nasus stats are really low as for immobile meele champion). he is purely outclassed not only by juggernauts, but really by most of all toplaners

thanks for hearing me out, i'd be grateful for any response

40 Comments

Daedalus8714 votes

So Nasus isn't a champion I really care about, so I really just skimmed it, but I did see you complaining about Tri-force changes, and I completely disagree with you about it.

You give up: 3% MS, 15% AS, 5 AD, and 30 AP.

The 3% MS is probably the biggest change, but that's like 10 MS. Probably not really going to change anything. 15% AS. Yeah, like Nasus is going to miss that. 5 AD, you literally Q a single cannon minion, it you've made it up. 30 AP. This is the second biggest thing he is going to miss. But again we're talking about, 18 magic damage, 3.6 damage per second, or 4.5% max health missing less on his entire ult. Of course, that requires for them to be in the AoE for the entire time.

You get: 10% CD, 50 Mana, and 10% crit. 10% CD is a huge buff to Nasus. Even better, it now builds out of a base item that he can rush. This is a huge buff to him. 50 Mana. Even if we assumed no regen, this is an extra 2 and a half Q's before going oom. With regen, with the extra time it takes to spend it probably means he gets a couple more too. 10% Crit. Okay, Nasus doesn't really care about it too much, but if you have crit, more is nice.

Guardman1 votes

{quoted}

So Nasus isn't a champion I really care about, so I really just skimmed it, but I did see you complaining about Tri-force changes, and I completely disagree with you about it.

You give up: 3% MS, 15% AS, 5 AD, and 30 AP.

The 3% MS is probably the biggest change, but that's like 10 MS. Probably not really going to change anything. 15% AS. Yeah, like Nasus is going to miss that. 5 AD, you literally Q a single cannon minion, it you've made it up. 30 AP. This is the second biggest thing he is going to miss. But again we're talking about, 18 magic damage, 3.6 damage per second, or 4.5% max health missing less on his entire ult. Of course, that requires for them to be in the AoE for the entire time.

You get: 10% CD, 50 Mana, and 10% crit. 10% CD is a huge buff to Nasus. Even better, it now builds out of a base item that he can rush. This is a huge buff to him. 50 Mana. Even if we assumed no regen, this is an extra 2 and a half Q's before going oom. With regen, with the extra time it takes to spend it probably means he gets a couple more too. 10% Crit. Okay, Nasus doesn't really care about it too much, but if you have crit, more is nice.

The tri-force changes actually do really hurt. The 3% MS hurts, but I've found the biggest problem is the removal of AP from Sheen. Nasus doesn't need the 10% CDR on sheen. From items and runes it is very easy to hit the cap and CDR is better in the mid to late game once you have your stacks rather than in the early game when you get your sheen. The AP on the other hand removal did hurt a lot. The early AP was great for harassing or farming in a hard lane. Also having to put so much money into the Zeal part is wasted on Nasus.

And this tri-force change problem isn't unique to just Nasus. On every champ I previously built tri-force on the new tri-force feels and performs worse due to the lack of AP and the over emphasis on crit. It just needs to be retooled away from the marksman changes.

The other problem with Nasus is that he lacks a good level 3 keystone mastery for him. It isn't that there aren't ones he can use, but the fact that they are all champion interaction focused for the most part (outside of the Permanent HP master in resolve, which isn't that good on laners). Nasus is always at his best when he can be focused on objectives and pushing. The scariest Nasus isn't a teamfight Nasus because he is easily kited and its easier to kill tanky champions nowadays. The scary Nasus is when he is pushing a lane and taking towers, but there isn't a keystone mastery to support that playstyle. In addition to this the non-straight damage pushing items just aren't strong enough to support Nasus's playstyle. Nasus doesn't need changes as a champion, he needs to see some item and mastery changes that support his playstyle.

I loved playing Nasus in Season 5, but I just haven't been able to in Season 6.

Carnarius3 votes

it won't have huge effect. the buff in life steal is too tiny itself to be noticeable, especially while most bruisers can take half of nasus hp in one quick combo early on

Romans VI XXIII2 votes

but on the other hand AP susan rocks!

Phoenix Kotori 2 votes

He needs a rework, face it no one wants to see current nasus strong.

Carnarius2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Quinn of Yuri,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AdGyjfAI,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2016-02-02T18:34:17.754+0000)

He needs a rework, face it no one wants to see current nasus strong.

perhaps this is why every "nerf nasus" thread is being heavily downvoted, right? or is this your own opinion?

Phoenix Kotori 2 votes

He's not strong especially right now so asking for nerfs would be stupid.

However being weak doesn't solve his design issues.

Carnarius2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Quinn of Yuri,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AdGyjfAI,comment-id=001000000000,timestamp=2016-02-02T19:01:20.867+0000)

He's not strong especially right now so asking for nerfs would be stupid.

However being weak doesn't solve his design issues.

i'm pretty sure that they riot won't change what is so unique about nasus, the stacking mechanic. i see no issue there, there are players that want 1k stacks and don't do anything besides stacking and there are players that hit 400 stacks and start grouping and helping their team. i would not pick on his desing, it is perfectly fine, i would even call him healthy, as he can be strong yet still possible to counter. he just needs some adjustments, perhaps in his base stats, becouse this is where he is too weak right now

Phoenix Kotori 2 votes

i'm pretty sure that they riot won't change what is so unique about nasus, the stacking mechanic. i see no issue there, there are players that want 1k stacks and don't do anything besides stacking and there are players that hit 400 stacks and start grouping and helping their team.

Oh I don't think the stacks are the issue, Veigar and Sion were reworked and kept their stacks.

The rest of his kit is fairly dated with subpar counter play and could use the reworking, imo.

Pupel1 votes

i agree with you but Riot has said that they are not answering questions specific to a certain champion balance atm so you might want to try again later. I main Nasus in Gold atm and while i find no problem farming early (averaging 375 stacks by 20) i do feel the issues of what to do mid game where i know i am stronger than any one champ but in a team fight i feel useless as i am so slow just waltzing up to a target. I was thinking making his E do a percent armor shred instead of a flat would balance him so he would have equal thret to tanks as well as squishies or make his W steal MS so he could close in on his targets eaiser because all of the other Juggernauts (except Morde who does more damage) have much better gap closing (Darius: pull and slowx2 Garen: speed boost + silence Skarner: slow, stun, pull). Late game i just end up standing on my ADC so whacking at anyone who tries to get them which are usually tanks that dont really care at that point.

Fadedpf1 votes

Should have named the title State of Tanks season 6. Recent reworks with heavy anti tank measures, tank champions and tank item nerfs served out non stop through season 5, and now the completely stupid ADC reworks making their items uncounterable and unbelievably one sided and toxic means tanks wont exist during preseason or ever until these things are addressed and balanced.

Carnarius1 votes

ad carries aren't problem themselves, even tho they might be a bit too strong soon. the problem i addressed is, nasus is the weakest from juggernauts and one of the weakest from all top laners, which will be even more concerning when 5.22 hits the light of day. of course it doesn't mean i don't agree with tanks being hit over and over in recent patches

Yaskamasandwich1 votes

I hear the new changes to item 3025 is nasty on him now. It is preseason so nothing will be known for sure, and it is the best time to experiment and change. However anyway even before then tanks and melee late game champions are suffering huge hits. Nasus Sion are suffering from Riot's decision to make all tanks (Nasus included because he builds tank items, yes he isn't a tank but it still effected him) mid game only champions, never late. They also suffer the fact that they're at this point Half-Juggernauts, Half-Tanks. They're immobile, and have cc that is single target, or unreliable aoe. Also instead of having the option of building juggernaut items and having juggernaut stats, they are forced to build tank items and rush CDR. This is very very VERY bad for champions like those two and many more because they were designed to be late game raid bosses.

Sejuani Is also suffering from this because her design was a tank with the kit to jump on the marksman and tear them apart, she hates marksmen finding them cowardly. Her early game was pitiful but her late game was strong for her kit. Unfortunately her kit is toxic from a standpoint and does need to be fixed ... again The fact she has mobility, group distortion, and assassin based style all mixed into one is bad.

Anyway so either two things need to be done (or possibly more) about the infinite scaling Nasus Sion . Option one is remove their infinity and convert them into what Riot wants, mid game champs. Or let them keep it and turn them into actual Juggernauts, not Half-Juggernaut, Half-tank hybrids that get worst of both worlds. Sejuani Should probably be turned into a juggernaut too, removing her group distortion and mobility, but change her kit to be more about her marksman hate, also may give her a difference between her and Amumu . Yeah they're not exactly the same, both have different goals. But they just seem so similar enough that it is bad enough.

Remember start of preseason 5 how only viable junglers were Vi LeeSin JarvanIV and seldom RekSai. Then item 3725 came out and brought tanks into the limelight and after the first few tweaks it became more in tuned and perfect. Then it was nerfed to the ground, but point is change happens during preseason. So lets hope some of the champions left high and dry get some love.

Baron of Bread1 votes

Ah yes. Sion, the Undead Almost-a-Juggernaut.

ReynardSurface1 votes

Nasus isn't a tank? To me, the infinitely buildable Q allows him to build ONLY tank items and still be relevant. With Randuin's and Frozen/thornmail he can easily crash into the formation, wither the adc, randuins the whole crew, and then it's all cleanup work. Banshee's and spirit visage for mr, and you are a tar-baby for real.

Harrada1 votes

Im gunna play Vayne/Graves top, rush executioners calling, and take a big steaming dump on his sustain for the low price of 800g which conveniently builds into a core item at just about the same price it currently is. And I am going to do this VS every sustain reliant champion in the game until they correct this horrendous mistake.

Sasogwa1 votes

Imo Riot needs to buff Nasus' lategame some way (increased power in Wither for more 'DPS shutdown'? Increased resistances somewhere in his kit (while inside his E for instance?) Less easy to kite, with some slow resistance/tenacity?) Nasus' design is all about having bad early for decent midgame and great lategame, which isn't the case at all right now. Sadly, mostly due to other champions level of melting power and mobility. I guess it would be extremely difficult to rebalance him. I hope Riot considers this and tries to do something about it.

PS : also, increased gold gain indirectly defavours Nasus because he's more about stacks than gold/experience.

Carnarius1 votes

i believe that increasing both price and power of armor items would solve problems not only for nasus, but for all end game tanks that are suffering right now. it would push dominating bruisers a little bit back, as tanks would have great end game options and wouldn't get melted so fast as it is now. in the other hand, it would be great for balance. the only way of being tanky right now is coming fed into mid game as a full tank, then yeah, you can say you are really hard to kill. other than that, let's face it, tanks still are getting destroyed when adc/apc reach their core items + penetration. and of course we have black cleaver, which is just heavily overloaded in my opinion. this 1 item makes tanks not tanky anymore

qetzel1 votes

Have you considered how the more accessible lifesteal mastery might affect him? it could be a decent enough indirect buff.

LordXemnas231 votes

The game is really good, but the thing that ticks me off a bit is that there's that ONE champ that's way more op than the rest. And yes, depending on how they play will have a role, but let's get on with it.

Garen: The Demacian knight has NO mana what so ever, the only thing holding him back is cool down. The way he could be rebalanced is at least tone down his AD a bit, then have a rage system for him (kinda like renekton) to where he can strategically use it to pull some powerful combos, but as it stands, he's just the annoying cool down tank.

Teemo: Ah yes, the annoying, blow-pipe wielding yordle that makes you cringe when you see his silouhette on the other team. Although one of my recent fights, I actually managed to kill him a few times, first 2 times with help of jungler and I was playing as nasus (and this is season 6.) however, he's still annoying, without some magic resist items, he still dominates, but if you have atleast spectres cowl early game and your a tank, just tank him, and as the game progresses and you have atleast one or two magic resist items, he doesn't do as much damage.

The six marksmen: Of the six marksmen that got changes in season six, they now feel broken for some reason. In late game, corki can drain your health in two seconds flat if he has the right items, Quinn feels fast and can dodge all of your attacks (probably because I haven played against her that much idk.) Over all, I think I just gotta get used to season six changes before I can truly rant.

Master Yi: The wuju blades man has a cool look and background, but his Q I think it is where he disappears and does three quick slashes is a bit op since he can't be touched during that time, so late game he's very op.

There are still some broken characters in my opinion that aren't listed, like riven. it's still a great game, but it just needs a bit more balancing so some champs don feel dominant over EVERY other champ in the game (I also feeling the hate that will come with this comment.)

Carnarius1 votes

well, i have a feeling that it will become even worse than it is now. new changes favourize some classes even harder, while the rest is falling behind

HOU YI PRO1 votes

i agree, graves is the top lane god shredding people like riven darius or any tank pretty much if you can play him right and place q's where it counts

Kyoufu1 votes

Well i look at your stats and you look really good as nasus. I main it but i pbly do some mistake to be as effective than you are. I Hope you can add me like that i can look at your games and learn more about my favorite champ since i start this game season 1.

Good bye and hope i see you later.

Kyoufu.

Carnarius1 votes

{quoted}

Well i look at your stats and you look really good as nasus. I main it but i pbly do some mistake to be as effective than you are. I Hope you can add me like that i can look at your games and learn more about my favorite champ since i start this game season 1.

Good bye and hope i see you later.

Kyoufu.

i can't invite you unfortunately, we play on different servers. you can watch replays of my games though, feel free to ask questions in this topic as well

about masteries, i kinda agree that new masteries lacks of what nasus needs -> power in raw stats. they were made to create interactive gameplay with many different strategies and also to give players some variety, as previous masteries were called "boring". that's the problem, nasus gains power from these so called "boring" masteries, that just give resistances, or other useful stats. that's why i find all keystone masteries pretty weak on him, and just go straight for 300 hp from strength of the ages, as it gives nice bonus along with scaling hp yellows

Kyoufu1 votes

Well thanks for all this advice i already try to find some replay of your game but not find it.

Hope you will continu to lvl up your skill and still be the number one nasus.

Thank you very much.

Kyoufu.

Carnarius1 votes

{quoted}

Well thanks for all this advice i already try to find some replay of your game but not find it.

Hope you will continu to lvl up your skill and still be the number one nasus.

Thank you very much.

Kyoufu.

thanks for kind words

1 more thing, i started working on a guide for nasus, i think it should be up in few weeks. i think you will find some content in it that is worthy of attention

Kyoufu1 votes

Well tell me when its ready and where i could find it.

Cya.

Kyoufu.

Incognonymous1 votes

I would love to see Nasus be updated and turned into a full on juggernaut. When I do see Nasus, they usually go tank, and there are certainly some good reasons for that, not the least of which is CDR and how well he uses things like SV and IBG-- but Nasus fulfills the juggernaut criteria so well that it would be nice to see more of that.

mogonk1 votes

I'm nowhere near as good OP, but I also main Nasus and in my experience this season he gets completely destroyed against anybody who knows how to play against him.

People are fooled into thinking he's still okay because if you leave him alone and let him farm he can be scary from mid game onward. But that's an illusion, games that go that way are too rare. Even in silver. Half the time I get camped and dived pre-6 and there's nothing I can do about it, there is no amount of cautious play that makes up for how weak he is early.

And another thing: against any AD champ that can rush Cleaver, the turning point where you can actually fight them (which used to be after you finished FH) just comes much, MUCH later. Cleaver > your entire mid game power spike.

And while in the old days you could just tunnel vision farm and split push top lane until you catch up if you get shut down early, with the game the way it is now there's just no time for that. Things snowball out of control before you can ever make up for being punished early.

It's bad. It's so bad.

Carnarius1 votes

{quoted}

I'm nowhere near as good OP, but I also main Nasus and in my experience this season he gets completely destroyed against anybody who knows how to play against him.

People are fooled into thinking he's still okay because if you leave him alone and let him farm he can be scary from mid game onward. But that's an illusion, games that go that way are too rare. Even in silver. Half the time I get camped and dived pre-6 and there's nothing I can do about it, there is no amount of cautious play that makes up for how weak he is early.

And another thing: against any AD champ that can rush Cleaver, the turning point where you can actually fight them (which used to be after you finished FH) just comes much, MUCH later. Cleaver > your entire mid game power spike.

And while in the old days you could just tunnel vision farm and split push top lane until you catch up if you get shut down early, with the game the way it is now there's just no time for that. Things snowball out of control before you can ever make up for being punished early.

It's bad. It's so bad.

try to use scaling hp yellows and strength of the ages, along with frozen gauntlet instead of triforce. in early you will be less vulnerable to ganks, meanwhile your mid game powerspike will come much faster, as gauntlet is now kinda an "triforce + fh" item, and costs much less. you will also scale way harder into late game

mogonk1 votes

{quoted}

try to use scaling hp yellows and strength of the ages, along with frozen gauntlet instead of triforce. in early you will be less vulnerable to ganks, meanwhile your mid game powerspike will come much faster, as gauntlet is now kinda an "triforce + fh" item, and costs much less. you will also scale way harder into late game

I was wondering where you would get the 10% cdr that cuts out, but I pulled up your runes and masteries and saw the glyph combination you use. That's really smart. Doing that.

Quick questions about masteries, if you have time:

  1. Don't you feel your ability to trade in lane is hit pretty hard by not having Grasp?

  2. What is it about the 12 points in cunning that you feel makes up for losing out on the sustain from Feast and Vampirism?

Carnarius1 votes

{quoted}

I was wondering where you would get the 10% cdr that cuts out, but I pulled up your runes and masteries and saw the glyph combination you use. That's really smart. Doing that.

Quick questions about masteries, if you have time:

  1. Don't you feel your ability to trade in lane is hit pretty hard by not having Grasp?

  2. What is it about the 12 points in cunning that you feel makes up for losing out on the sustain from Feast and Vampirism?

  1. the answer is simple, i don't trade until i have power of outtrading my opponent. thanks to this, i scale much faster into mid game, as my stacks and stats are both really high thanks to scaling yellows and another source of extra hp from strength of the ages

  2. you get additional sustain from savagery/biscuits and besides, sustain isn't a problem with runic armor and life steal quints. on the other hand, merciless is great for finishing targets and dangerous game increases your survivability in team fights by a lot. offence tree just doesn't offer much except for a bit of sustain

Kyoufu1 votes

Well i need an advice. Currently i get many Udyr in game but i cant do a shit against them in late game. What could i do?

Carnarius1 votes

you can focus on splitpushing to apply pressure, or you can teamfight. nasus is stronger in teamfights, you can: a) peel for your damage dealers, you will outtank him easily b) if he goes 100% tank, just ignore him and go for enemies, he will be useless

Neoskyleen1 votes

Hi Carnarius, I'm glad to see another Nasus main. Do you ever stream?

Carnarius1 votes

{quoted}

Hi Carnarius, I'm glad to see another Nasus main. Do you ever stream?

i'm working on nasus guide right now, hopefully i will be able to stream in next few months

lolursoft1 votes

Though i agree with your post, you have to look at low elo as well. Nasus in low elo as of 6.5 if a free win. No one can beat him in lane anymore. i literally just played a game where a darius went 0-5 against a nasus. My biggest problem is that once he get 2-3 tank items, he is unkillable mid game and late game. Keep in mind this is low elo, i'm talking bronze and silver. for anyone trying to climb you could just play nasus, wait till mid game, and win its that simple. his damage is fine, his tankiness is not. spirit visage and iceborn = full build, un-killable, raid boss, who can take out 1/2 of your hp at 11 min

lolursoft1 votes

OH and he is supposed to be outclassed by every top laner in the game. there shouldnt be a single matchup he wins. Nasus is (was) all about late game early game nasus should hit like a wet noodle and get dicked on by 1 ability. It should take some sort of effort to stack instead of just afk farming until 8 min, buying 1 item and then winning lane. Late game he should be the most terrifying champion of all time.

Carnarius1 votes

{quoted}

OH and he is supposed to be outclassed by every top laner in the game. there shouldnt be a single matchup he wins. Nasus is (was) all about late game early game nasus should hit like a wet noodle and get dicked on by 1 ability. It should take some sort of effort to stack instead of just afk farming until 8 min, buying 1 item and then winning lane. Late game he should be the most terrifying champion of all time.

i agree, but you know, it will be insanely difficult to balance him the way that he'll have weaker early and stronger late. beside that, it would make him an even more rare pick in high elo

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