How badly did they gut Mana Regen, you ask?

Be Kind Rewind·1/20/2015, 10:11:13 PM·117 votes·8,856 views

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130111231157/leagueoflegends/images/c/cc/Athene's_Unholy_Grail_item.png

"Doran's Ring gives 3 MP/5 plus another 4 MP/5 if you last hit every minion (4 per minion, 6 minions every 30 seconds). So two Doran's Rings is ideally 14 MP/5, simple enough.

The amount of mana that Chalice (or Athene's, which gives the exact same amount of mana regen now unless you get a kill or assist) gives you is +50% base regen and +2% missing mana as MP/5.

The champs with the most mana regen are actually ADCs (and Leona and Nautilus) ironically, but once you get to mages, there's a pseudo-standard of 6 MP/5 at level 1 and a growth of 0.8 per level. For mana, there's some slight variation, but the most common value is 334 mana at level 1 with a growth of 50 per level. (There are some mages that get a fair bit more like Cass, Morg, Karthus, Janna, Soraka, Zilean, and Kassadin, but it's like an extra 10 per level with 20-30 more at level 1.)

So we need to figure out at what point the MP/5 from Chalice is greater than 14. Let's assume champs are operating around 50% mana most of the time. That means that Mana Font is giving around 5.8 MP/5 at level 6 and around 7.3 at level 9. The +50% base regen will be giving 5 MP/5 at level 6 and 6.2 at level 9. Chalice is basically breaking even with Doran's around level 9, maybe closer to 7 or 8 if you operate at significantly lower amounts of mana. You do have to consider that while you were working your mana count down that low, Doran's would have been giving you back more, though.

So you can see that double Doran's actually gives more MP/5 potentially even as late as level 9 if you last hit perfectly. It also costs 200 gold less than Chalice, gives 30 AP, and trades 25 MR for 120 HP (a slight loss in defenses against magic damage for the early game, but you can spend some of that money on potions).

If you don't actually want magic resist, there is now basically no reason to ever touch Chalice. Chalice is not an efficient mana item. Get double Doran's and build your core. If that core wants CDR, go Morello and use Idol + Doran's Ring as your use of 1000 gold rather than Chalice if you're worried about mana."

~ the_rowan http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/954437-league-of-legends/71053866/809420219

Note also that the MR is less beneficial than flat HP when laning against champions like Zed. (So basically every game.)

Another important note is that Doran's ring still gives a flat 3mp/5. It was not buffed to Athene's/Chalice's level - they were just brought down to being about as useful(less) at sustaining mana as two Doran's used to be.

So, who was saying that mana regen was buffed across the board? Something about Zed being meaningfully gated by energy?

160 Comments

Alorasence1/20/2015, 11:57:16 PM52 votes

It is so hilariously inefficient.

And I love how they nerfed the efficiency of Morellonomicon. As if nerfing that item will make Athenes better. So fucking stupid. I'm never going to buy Athenes for any reason until its changed.

I'd rather by Frozen heart for mana and cdr on almost any mage.

I don't know what has been going on at Riot over the past few weeks, but the decisions being made for early season 5 are moronic.

Hemulen Magi1/20/2015, 11:52:22 PM41 votes

If the current trend continues, you'd better stop before they gut Doran's rings too. Seriously, don't bring attention to this if you know what's good for you. You've been warned.

Captain Aishi1/21/2015, 12:58:38 AM36 votes

I feel like the most efficient mana sustain item for anivia's laning phase right now is homeguards enchant... :(

Regina George1/20/2015, 11:36:22 PM31 votes

It's just so annoying right now, like I play Lux a lot, and I'm usually vs a Zed or a Yasuo. I go oom in about 3-4 E's, while they just stay in lane forever and farm. So I have to back and buy pots (cause they can harass easier too, on top of their amazing cs) so I'm behind on xp and gold and it all goes downhill from there.

It's not impossible to beat them, but it's more of a "I don't win, I just don't lose" situation.

Diostukos1/21/2015, 1:45:56 AM26 votes

"just spend 3020 gold for Morello+tear so you don't run out of mana!"

Meanwhile assasins build straight damage.

19 19 191/21/2015, 12:01:35 AM13 votes

I couldn't play Ziggs or Syndra after they nerf'd athenes :/ Actually, ever since Athenes has been nerf'd I didn't touch mid lane ever again. Thanks riot.

Darkwind1/20/2015, 10:40:11 PM13 votes

Honestly, with how hard they hit it, I'd build catalyst before i'd build grail. Way before i built grail. I HATED to build grail before because of how weak its MR/AP were, but i put up with it for the mana and cdr. Now? No freaking way. Give it 90 Ap again and maybe ill take a look at it again.

darkdill1/20/2015, 11:12:40 PM12 votes

Thumbs up man. Just a shame Riot will give no f#cks.

Hexs Fortune1/20/2015, 10:38:03 PM11 votes

At the very least defining mana gain by percentage of total regen is really confusing to measure out at first glance.

Cindikle1/21/2015, 1:57:37 AM10 votes

You're assuming perfect CS in a match. This is honestly not realistic. Your 14mp/5 is probably more likely to be worth 10-12 with good CS.

Doran rings also do not build into anything. You will be selling them. Thus you must factor in the lost gold if you're comparing prices. While Chalice will build into an item you're likely wanting. Doran's is very stat efficient.

*This is not news. *

Mana regen as a whole was buffed if you don't factor in how powerful Mana Font use to be. Early game is slightly weaker. Karthus for example losses a difference of around 30 mana in 5 minutes from regen. Mid game they start to equal and will be stronger before late game.

The problem is not mana regen. It's the champions that need to be rebalanced around the loss of Chalice. Lux is a huge example of this. Her max rank E costing 130 mana because she always relied on Chalice.

I'll say it again. Mana regen as a whole got buffed when not factoring in the old Mana Font.

Also Athene's is stronger than Morello's if you're under roughly 60% mana as an average. It takes 980 mana at level 18 for it to equal it(in terms of averaging 50% mana). Most champs have over 1100. This pace holds true for most levels. With the mana return on kill/assist it is the stronger late game mana regen item. But before then the regen just isn't reliable enough IMO. At the least, the cost of Chalice should go back down. There was no real need for the cost increase to begin with.

Once Riot gets around to rebalancing champions who were nerfed because of the old Mana Font and fixing those who are too oppressive from the loss of the old Mana Font(looking at you Zed) things will work out fine.

Jasiwel1/21/2015, 4:10:10 AM7 votes

It's confusing that Riot did not see this situation occurring. Season 4 already had a lot of Manaless Champions dominating the scene; mages were only picked for utility or burst, but had to deal with the exact same Manaless powerhouses now...except back in Season 4 Manaless champions were still strong and Mages had semidecent Mana Regen to stay in lane long enough to at least farm.

I don't want to touch Midlane right now because of how unreliable Mana Regen is without buying Tear before Rod of Ages to have none of my damage show up until lategame. To make it more undesirable, I play immobile mages.

MrSexyHobo1/21/2015, 12:28:14 AM6 votes

same reason why malphite is trashed by riven before you can even build items to counter. you have to get tp for sustain while riven can easily go ignite. she can snowball before you have a chance to fight back and get way ahead on cs

Stacona1/21/2015, 6:22:22 AM6 votes

grail just needs 100% mana regen so that the item is weaker early and stronger later like Riot's intentions (they never meant to nerf mana regen), grail should be the dedicated mana regen item so give it 100% regen like morelloes

Subject 51/21/2015, 3:35:05 AM5 votes

Jangle, what about supports? And i do not take crucible? I find myself RUSHING tear because i am unable to actually assist my team for a proper amount of time, skipping sightstone in the process. I find that if i buy 2 greens and a pink for my adc while also keeping up my persistence with a tear i am capable of pushing my adc further ahead while the other support becomes weaker, but i pay for that cost in the mid game. Is it a cost efficient item over tear, or is it actually a viable source of mana anymore for even supports?

(Answer please! All of the mana regen stuff is really confusing, i usually like debating this sort of stuff with another person but i'm just not good with mana regen, all i know is it is absolutely terrible right now.)

Miku Lv991/21/2015, 12:26:55 AM5 votes

There is still a reason to buy chalice though. For the Mikael's active. Which almost every support seems like they need to get nowadays. So now supports are just nerfed really bad since the chalice was made so much worse. :(

And yes, it does give so little mana even a tear is better on just about anyone.

TheRainInSpain1/21/2015, 3:44:51 AM4 votes

I think part of the problem on Athene and Morell was that they gave 20% CDR along with decent AP and being a Mana Regen item. So either they gut CDR off them or mana as a whole gets nerfed. Even with current stats, Morell looks OP.

So Athene looks like:

+80 AP +80~ MR +100% Base Mana Regen with the Chalice part giving 75% or even full 100%.

You get Athene for being a pretty decent AP item with the significant MR bonus on top of being a Mana Item. But no CDR. Abyssal does look like it needs a buff, even without a change like this, at least a buff to tell how big the damned aura is.

Morell on the other hand should be more aggressive. You lose the MR for greater offensive utility, which translates into 10% CDR and the Grievous Wounds thing. An Armor and Mana Regen AP item should be added, mostly to rub it in Zed's face, but also to deal with AD champions in the mid lane.

Jesus is Savior1/21/2015, 7:51:57 AM3 votes

so basically what you're saying is, if I want to play anything other than Malzahar mid ever again, I need to scrap my defensive runes and take 18 scaling mana regen runes?

lol I'm gonna feed so hard.

Xemeron1/21/2015, 12:29:37 AM3 votes

Whoa, its like... Mana is actually a ressource to limit your big booms, a ressource you have to manage, think about, and not just another bar you never care about...

lxlLilybellelxl1/21/2015, 7:07:23 AM3 votes

The mana regen is so brutal now. As most supports I used to have a choice (Late season 4 mind you)... Mikael's Crucible and I'd be golden on Mana for the rest of the match, OR Athenes + Ardent Censer Since the mana regen was horrible on either of them alone, Ardent + Athenes would be my build if I played a sustain support like Nami or Sona. Currently I have to build 3 manaregen items and even then I'm still OOM after cyclying through my moves on any support, and if i ult... wooo forget about healing my teammate I'll be oom. Learning how to manage your mana is one thing, but completely gutting manaregen is brutal especially on supports, who already have such a low income who run on the Teams scraps to begin with.