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Riven: A healthy winrate but an unhealthy playstyle - Rework or leave be?

Leyrann·1/28/2015, 8:38:03 PM·2 votes·2,120 views

EDIT: I'm seeing a lot of downvotes, while when I posted this originally on the wikia, I mostly got upvotes, so I'm wondering: Why are you downvoting? Can you please post your explanation on why you think this is a bad idea?

When looking from a balance view, Riven is a bit of a conflicting champion currently. On one hand, her win rate is perfectly fine, but on the other hand, many people absolutely hate her.

It's understandable. Riven may feel balanced to the player, may have a normal win rate, but to an opponent, she feels really strong, even if not handled by a really good player. Keeping her in this state may not be unhealthy if you look at statistics, but if you add emotions to the mix, changing her is a far better idea.

However, considering we already established Riven isn't actually overpowered, she shouldn't be nerfed. That would just make her a useless pick and it wouldn't even remove her biggest problem. Which is Wind slash, by the way. Not her shield. Not her triple Q. That's part of her intended playstyle, and surely not more annoying than a Tristana jumping away, a Blitzcrank pulling you in, a LeBlanc bursting you or whatever. Riven's real problem is part of her design philosophy.

That philosophy is one of a fighter game character, as Morello stated in her mechanics preview all the way back when she was released: You combo abilities in the way best in the situation, and when your enemy is low, you end him with an epic finisher.

When designing Riven, however, one thing was forgotten: League of Legends is a team game, where fighter games are not. This meant that if someone else - say, Zyra or Orianna - were to burst the enemy team to low health, then Riven could double tap R to finish them off. In other words, Riven wouldn't need the combo in order to use the finisher effectively.

Now that we know where the problem is, it's time to solve it. However, we have to keep the execute part in mind. It is, after all, a core part of Riven's playstyle. What can we do, to on one hand remove double tapping R for a multikill, but on the other hand keep her execute in there? Reducing the range would be an option, but I don't believe it is possible to reach a good spot in between too much and too little.

No, a far better idea would be to outright remove Wind slash and replace it with something else, namely a next-ability-buff, a bit like Karma and Heimerdinger have, though not the same because they don't have the aforementioned combo philosophy. The idea is this:

Whenever Riven fights a champion and/or uses abilities and enhanced autoattacks, she builds up a resource she will be given - Ki. This buildup is by far the strongest when she combines the two ways of doing it - putting a full combo down on a jungle mob isn't going to get you enough Ki to actually do something with it. Also, you earn and lose (you lose it when not fighting champions) Ki faster if you have more of it.

Now, when she has built up a certain amount of Ki, she can spend it, using her ultimate key. This buffs up her next Q (one of three only), W or E, and puts the ultimate on a moderate cooldown. However, and this is where it gets unique, Riven can also ult when she does NOT have enough Ki, in which case her ult will look mostly like normally, automatically build up Ki over time (once again not enough to be able to use a buffed ability if you don't use any "normal" abilities in the duration), and she can then ult again if she has enough Ki, buffing up just like before. This will put the ultimate on a long cooldown.

Time to move onto her ability buffs, and the E change that I believe would do well too:

(note that this ability buff is instead of Wind slash, and supposed to be equally powerful but easier to anticipate for the enemy, and therefore healthier)

Q: First or second charge: Gains bonus range and damage and stuns enemies hit. Third charge: Leaps into the air and slams down at target point (moderate range), knocking up enemies hit for a short (but longer than normal) duration and slow them by a large (but not huge) amount for a few seconds afterwards. Once again, keep in mind you can only buff one Q charge, not all three.

W: Deals increased damage (think of 50% more) and stuns slightly longer (1 second). If Riven autoattacks a stunned target, she deals a huge amount of bonus damage. Can only happen once per stun. Bonus damage cannot crit.

E: Normal E: Costs Ki to use when not facing an enemy champion. If you don't have the required Ki, you lose a % of the shield's strength depending on how much Ki you miss. Buffed E: Gains bonus range and shield and shields for longer. Ki costs do not add up.

And her new R:

Now passively gains a smaller amount of AD when not on cooldown, increased when fully ulting (the long cooldown one). When fully ulting, gain bonus range on abilities. Full ult ends when the buffed ability is used, and cannot last more than 15 seconds.

If you want the exact numbers, please go here: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Leyrann/Riven_Rework_-_Yes_she_may_be_able_to_use_one

I don't expect you to read it, but in replies I may refer to it. Just so that you know.

21 Comments

EdgarÅllanPwn1/28/2015, 9:10:29 PM3 votes

Yeah, i don't think you looked at this right. this could be said for any champ, in the game... ever.

When designing Riven, however, one thing was forgotten: League of Legends is a team game, where fighter games are not. This meant that if someone else - say, Zyra or Orianna - were to burst the enemy team to low health, then Riven could double tap R to finish them off. In other words, Riven wouldn't need the combo in order to use the finisher effectively.

Most every champion in the game can ult anyone at low health and get the kill.

This has nothing to do with her kit, and why she's unhealthy. there's very few champions this DOESN't work with......................

I think you need to find a better basis for why you want to change riven other than something irrelevant

Drunk Rummate1/28/2015, 9:19:36 PM2 votes

i would consider your point if you were talking about a champion like veigar, who simply clicks on people. he is binary. he can have perfectly balanced winrates, but his design is still debatable.

riven on the other hand presents a lot of strategic and mechanical options for all players involved. i think shes a fine champion.

SmokingPuffin1/28/2015, 9:37:34 PM1 votes

When designing Riven, however, one thing was forgotten: League of Legends is a team game, where fighter games are not. This meant that if someone else - say, Zyra or Orianna - were to burst the enemy team to low health, then Riven could double tap R to finish them off. In other words, Riven wouldn't need the combo in order to use the finisher effectively.

I don't understand why this is a problem. Lots of champions have better ways to execute on lower cooldowns than Riven.

Blade of Justic1/28/2015, 9:43:05 PM1 votes

People would complain about Win-Nao's ability to delete people by spamming all the buttons on the keyboard.

At least he has to kill them one at a time.

ImHerVoice1/29/2015, 9:22:07 PM1 votes

the only thing unhealthy about AD casters is yasuo zed and their items.

Everything else is fine.

Matthias91191/28/2015, 9:34:53 PM1 votes

If your concern is just the double-tap-ult move, there are much less disruptive changes you could make to get rid of that.

For example: reduce the base damage of her ult skillshot, but have her gain stacks of a buff while the ult is active (and/or for landing attacks while the ult is active) that increases the skillshot's damage. Make it cap out at higher than the current damage to compensate.

That said I'm not convinced that this is really the issue with her kit. She's frustrating to play against because she snowballs super hard and she gets (some) defense for building damage, not so much because she can occasionally snipe someone at low health with her ult. But if you want to change that she really needs a complete overhaul.

mvargus1/28/2015, 9:09:00 PM1 votes

Not sure I agree with you.

I also want to note that everything you put here regarding Riven being a bit of a "solo" in a team game goes double for the two most toxic champs right now in Lee Sin and Zed. Both of them are "balanced" on paper, but appear to be hated by a large and rather vocal group of players because they are extremely unfun to play against.

The problem you have is that Riven does have abilities that make her somewhat easy to play for a new player, but I'd argue that she's quite difficult to master as you have to learn a lot of timings and get used to spotting her AA animation so you can orb-walk her abilities in a way to speed her attacks. It's not instant.

It sounds like the bigger problem is that a well handled Riven often becomes frustrating to fight. You can't close on her easily as she can get away using Q or E to dash or she can time your approach and W to stun you before going on the offense. and if you try to stay away she can use Q or E to initiate. Most top laners want to be able to dictate the timing of the all-in attempts and a well played Riven will take that away and keep it for the entire laning phase. That's what makes her fun to play, but awful to play against.

The R isn't even a factor in that. It's the fact that Riven is one of the most mobile fighters while still having the CC to really limit the ability to bully her.

I'd say your "rework" won't work, but others might have more to offer.