Boards›Gameplay

I combined Twinsdragons from SilverSquid rework and my "versatility" rework for Karma to make this:

StormBladeMaster·1/30/2020, 1:56:24 PM·4 votes·5,099 views

Hello everyone, a few months ago I tried to make a rework where people could play all Karmas including mage, support and tank + a new addition (AD karma). But it’s was still unfinished and make Karma depending on her items was maybe too difficult to balance so I was inspired by one of SilverSquid Karma rework since he is our leader when it’s come to post about Karma gameplay.

The twinsdragons could be a good option : https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/oxNbhh7j-a-detailed-post-on-karma-and-her-twin-dragons. But i was always sad that tank karma was deleted because i feel like we could save her.

So, I decided to try to combine my previous rework with his twins dragons rework. My previous rework was based on making Karma able to play on every lane. She could change spells and ratios by buying items who would have make her AP, support, tank or ADC and she could jungle too. But I realized my rework still lacked identity and it’s would be too much complicated to balance on items. Items are very difficult to balance, so making a rework on items isn’t a good idea.

I made a rework based on the same idea “Versatility”, I want Karma to be played everywhere and change her playstyle depending on the lane. Karma carry twin dragons with her: SilverSquid named them “Ouru” and “Boros”. I renamed “Ouru” into “Ouros” because Ouros sound better. I don’t like the “U” sound but it’s personal taste. Also, Ouros and Boros have same numbers of letters which is important for balancing.

You see, these dragons for me represent “Karma”, the spirit entity that live on Darha body.

They can combine, but they can also hate each other. I made 4 scenarios:

  1. Mage Karma will be the purest Karma, she will be the “balance”. Ouros and Boros decided to fusion into one long dragon named “Bouros”.
  2. Support Karma will be the unbalanced Karma. Her heart will always change between Ouros and Boros. They don’t fight each other but they work altogether. When one is active, the other is sleeping.
  3. Tank Karma: Ouros kill Boros and Karma give up on her damage and deviance. She will obey the old Karma spirit that always told her peace and give up on fighting.
  4. ADC Karma: Bors kill Ouros and Karma give up on her ability to protect others. She became a war machine, dealing big damage but it’s cost her utility. At the start of the game, the player will have to choose between these 4 scenarios, and he will discover a part of Karma lore.

The idea is the player being able to “build” Karma lore when he plays her. He can’t change, it’s like Kayn but you must choose your form at the start of the game.

I hope this rework will please everyone because the old Karma abilities are full into Mage Karma and Tank one. The currents Karma abilities are in her support and adc build. People will be able to play Karma like they want, and she will be effective in every path. It’s will solve the war between Mages, Supports and Tank players and Old/New players. Karma is our champ, she belongs to everyone. Everyone must love playing her and be satisfied with Karma rework.

Old players will be satisfied. Old Karma Q and shieldbomb is back. But I also kept the current Q. How can you keep 2 different spells on one? It’s easy, just link spells to a playstyle. New players won’t be disappointed too, Karma support will be way more useful, and they will enjoy playing Karma tank or any Karma because honestly, the rework is very fun.

PASSIVE: OUROS AND BOROS

https://www.mobafire.com/images/ability/karma-gathering-fire.png

Karma abilities depend on her dragons on the start of the game. Karma lives inside of Darha and can take different forms. It’s a spirit who can adapt to every situation and this is spirit is represented by her 2 dragons: Ouros and Boros.

Ouros is the healing dragon, giving Karma life and peace, maybe too peaceful. Karma utility is represented by this dragon. Boros the aggressive dragon, making Karma acting and take decisions to protect Ionia. Karma damage/determination is represented by this dragon The spells and ratios can change depending on what Karma does with her dragons.

**Mage: ** In this scenario, Ouros and Boros fusion into one and unique dragon named “Bouros”. The 2 powers are gathered. Karma is Mage Karma. The perfect balance between Damage and Healing. Passive: Ouros and Boros are combined and Karma receive AP and increased self-healings per % missing health. 0,25/0,5/0,75/1 AP and 0,25/0,5/0,75/1% increased heals and Shield per % missing health.

**Support: ** In this scenario, Ouros and Boros don’t want to fusion but they work altogether. When Boros is active, Ouros is not active. When Ouros is active, Boros isn’t. The balance is constantly changing. Karma spirit is unbalanced and goes from “heal” to “power” to “heal” to “power” etc… Passive: When Karma is above 50% max HP, she gains 10/20/30/40 + 20% AP magic dmg on her AA. When she is below 50% max HP, she heals for 10/20/30/40 + 20% of bonus mana regen on her AA (bonus mana regen is a ratio that is made for encouraging Karma to build support because mana regen is what you find on most supp items). +100% mana regen is converted into 20 flat heal in this case. That what I mean by this ratio.

The other scenarios are the scenarios where one dragon killed the other one.

**Tank: ** In this scenario, it’s Ouros who won. He killed Boros and now, he is taking full control of Karma. This Karma is less aggressive and more defensive. Passive: Every 10/8/6/4s in combat, Karma next spell will heal her for 2/3/4/5% of her missing health.

**ADC: ** Ofc now you must have guessed that in this scenario, it’s Boros who have killed Ouros. Karma lose her healing and utility and she is full into power and damage. Passive: Every 10/8/6/4s in combat, Karma next AA will deal 10/15/20/25% more damage.

To sump up: Karma has 4 personalities. Will she reach the great balance? Will she choose a side and took one dragon over the other or will she stay unbalanced and changing dragons every time? It’s you who decided her lore, who write her game! You write Karma lore. Karma can also jungle. She is the ultimate flex pick, very interesting to main and Otp because you will always be useful and able to choose what path you want to take.

Also you can supp with her mage path, you can go mid with her supp path, you can supp with her tank path or go top with her adc path. There is no problems about that. You are the one to decide.

Q : INNER FLAME

https://www.mobafire.com/images/ability/karma-inner-flame.png

For mage and tank: Karma fires a burst of spiritual energy in a large cone, dealing damage to all enemies in here. The range is 500. For support and adc: Karma fires a burst of spiritual energy in the target direction, detonating with the first enemy hit, dealing Magic damage (or physical dmg if AD) and slowing all enemies around the target by (depend on the path)% for (depend on the path) seconds. The range is 700 for support and 800 for adc.

**Mage: ** Deals 80/120/160/200/240 + (65% AP) magic damage. CD: 10/9/8/7/6s Mana cost: 50/55/60/65/70

**Tank: ** Deals 40/65/90/115/140 + (7% of Karma max HP) and heal Karma for 60/70/80/90/100 (+3% of her max HP) per enemy champ hit. The heal is reduced by 50% on monsters and minions. CD: 10/9/8/7/6s Mana cost: 40/44/48/52/56

**Support: ** Deals 70/110/150/190/230 (+ 50% bonus mana regen; +100% mana regen = +50 flat damage) magical damage, slow for 40% and it’s last 2s. CD: 6/5,75/5,5/5,25/5s Mana cost: 50/55/60/65/70

ADC: Deals 50/75/100/125/150 + (40% total AD) physical damage and applies a mark on enemies for 3s. When Karma attack a marked enemy, she will trigger the mark, dealing a critical hit (160/170/180/190/200% of Karma AD), then the mark disappears. Slow for 15% only, the width of the projectile is reduced by 1/3. CD: 14/12,5/11/9,5/8s Mana cost: 60/65/70/75/80

Jungle: The dmg are increased by 30% towards monsters.

Q SOUFLARE

https://www.mobafire.com/images/ability/karma-soulflare.png

Mage and tank: Karma Q spell gains a little bit more dmg for mage and can heal per enemies hit. The tank version is a stun on her Q and she gains armor and magic resist buff per enemies hit.

Supports and Adc: Inner Flame travels (harmlessly) through enemies to target location to deal bonus magic damage and leave an area of effect that lasts 1.5 seconds, slowing enemies inside by (depend on the path %. The area detonates at the end of its duration, magic damage (or physical if AD) to all enemies inside.

**Mage: ** Add 40/80/120/160 + (30% Karma AP) magic damage to the cone. Heal Karma for 100% of the damage dealt to enemies’ champs and heal her for 50/55/60/65% of the damage dealt to minions/monsters.

**Tank: ** Add a 1,25/1,5/1,75/2s stun to the cone. Karma will get an armor and magic resist buff for 6s. She gains 5/10/15/20 armor and resist magic per enemies’ champ hit and half of the gain for monsters or minions.

**Support: ** Add 50/75/100/125 + (20% Karma AP) magic dmg to the fireball. The circle deals 100/175/250/325 + (50% Karma AP). If the circle hit at least one enemy, he heals all allies’ champs (Karma included) in a 500ua range near the circle by 50/75/100/125 + 75% Karma bonus mana regen (+100% mana regen = 75 flat heal) per enemy champ hit. The ally’s champs inside of the circle gets 25% more healing than the ones outsides and they are healed even if no enemies champ is hit. Basically, being in the circle guaranteed you to be healed and if you are outside the circle, you need to have some enemies champ in hit to get healed.

**Adc: ** Add 25/50/75/100 + (20% Karma AD) physical dmg to the fireball. The size of the circle is doubled, and the circle stay for 4s and it’s doesn’t detonate. As long the enemies are inside the circle, Karma auto attack will burn them, converting 20/27/34/41% of the total dmg into true dmg.

Karma W: FOCUSED RESOLVE

https://www.mobafire.com/images/ability/karma-focused-resolve.png

Karma exerts her will over a target enemy champion or monster, dealing magic damage/physical and forming a tether between them for up to 2 seconds, during which the target is revealed.

If the tether holds for the duration, the target is dealt the same magic damage and is revealed and rooted for a duration for mage and tank build. For support and adc, things are different. The tethers won’t CC (except support one if one enemy go through the tether) but they last longer, have more range and apply different effects, special to supports and adc build.

Base range of the tether: 575

**Mage: ** Base range of the tether increased by 100. Deals 50/70/90/110/130 (+ 45% AP) magic damage on both parts. CC for 1.4 /1.55/1.7/1.85 /2s. CD: 14/13/12/11/10s Mana cost: 60/65/70/75/80

**Tank: ** Base range of the tether reduced by 75. Don’t deal dmg but heal Karma on both part for 5/5,5/6/6,5/7% of her max HP. CC for 1,4/1,55/1,7/1,85/2s. CD: 12/11/10/9/8s Mana cost: 50/55/60/65/70

**Support: ** Can tether teammates too. Base range increased by 100. Increase the damage deal to the enemy and reduce the dmg taken by allies’ champ. The tether can stay for 6s max. Karma can link any target with herself. All enemies who goes through the link are root for 1/1,15/1,3/1,45/1,6s and takes 60/100/140/180/220 + (55% Karma AP) magic damage. It’s don’t affect the targeted enemy, only the ones who go through the link.

Damage boost on enemy linked target: 10/12/14/16/18% Damage reduction on ally linked target: 12,5/15/17,5/20/22,5% CD: 10/9,5/9/8,5/8s Mana cost: 60/65/70/75/80

**ADC: ** Doesn’t CC and doesn’t deal dmg. The base range is increased by 100. The tether can stay for 6s. Every time Karma attack the target who is linked to her (Monster or enemy champ), she gains 10/12,5/15/17,5/20% AS (can be auto attacks or spells) and she can stack this AS boost indefinitely, that means she can exceed the AS limit cap who is 2,5, as long she keeps attacking the linked target.

After the link broke or the target dies, Karma keep her AS boost for 3s max. CD: 15/14/13/12/11s Mana cost: 80/85/90/95/100

Jungle: Karma send back 40% of the dmg she takes to the linked monster.

**W RENEWAL: **

https://www.mobafire.com/images/ability/karma-renewal.png

Extend the root duration, the range and the damage or effects.

Mage: Add 100 range and Convert half of the damage to healing, that means Karma W will only deal 25/35/45/55/65 (+ 22,5% AP damage and will heal her for 25/35/45/55/65 (+22,5% AP damage) on both parts. range to.

If the tether is successful and the target rooted, a circle will appear (you know the circle from Souflare) for 1,5s and after these 1,5s it’s will detonate, dealing 100/200/300/400 +(50% AP) magic damage.

**Tank: ** + 50 range add 3/4/5/6% of Karma max HP on the healing on both parts and CC duration extended by 0,5/0,75/1/1,25s.

**Support: ** +150 range. Add 2,5/5/7,5/10% damage reduction or damage boost and 0,1/0,2/0,3/0,4s on the CC and 20/40/60/80 + (15% AP) magic damage.

**ADC: ** +50 range. Add 2/4/6/8% to the AS boost per AA.

**E INSPIRE: **

https://www.mobafire.com/images/ability/karma-inspire.png

Karma shields the target allied champion or herself for (depend on the path) seconds. This ability has different effects based on the path.

**Mage: ** She can shield herself, an ally minion/tower or an allied champ for 2s and the target gains 40/45/50/55/60% movement speed for 2s. The shield can absorb 60/110/160/210/260 + 60% AP. CD: 12/11,5/11/10,5/10s Mana cost: 50/55/60/65/70

**Tank: ** She can only shield herself for 4s and she gains 20/25/30/35/40% movement speed for 2s. The shield can absorb 100/150/200/250/300 (+ 100% of Karma armor + 100% of Karma magic resist) damage. CD: 15/14/13/12/11s Mana cost: 60/65/70/75/80

**Support: ** She can shield herself or an allied champ for 4s and the target gains 50/55/60/65/70% movement speed for 2s. The shield can absorb 80/130/180/230/280 + (70% bonus mana regen; +100% mana regen = 70 flat shield). CD: 10/9,5/9/8,5/8s Mana cost: 50/55/60/65/70

**ADC: ** She can only shield herself for 3s. The shield isn’t a shield but a force field who reduce the damage taken by 20/22,5/25/27,5/30% and she gains 20/25/30/35/40% movement speed for 1,5s. CD: 12/11/10/9/8s Mana cost: 40/45/50/55/60

Monsters deals 15% less damage to Karma when she has a shield.

**E DEFIANCE: **

https://www.mobafire.com/images/ability/karma-defiance.png

Makes the shield bigger and stronger, add some specials effects depending on the path.

**Mage: ** Add 30/60/90/120 + (20% AP) HP to the shield. The shield will send a wave of energy 0,75s after his creation, dealing 100/200/300/400 (+ 70% AP) in a 475ua range around the target.

**Tank: ** Add 100/150/200/250 (+ 50% of Karma armor and 50% of Karma magic resist HP to the shield). The shield will blind the opponents for 0,5/0,75/1/1,25s and slow them by 15% for 2s.

**Support: ** Add 75/100/125/150 (+ 50% of Karma bonus mana regen; +100% mana regen = 50 flat shield) to the main shield. The ally’s champs near the principal target receive a shield too for 35/40/45/50% of the max HP from the main shield who can last the same amount of time as the main shield and gives bonus move speed for the same duration.

**ADC: ** Add 3/6/9/12% damage reduction the force field. The force field last 2,5/3/3,5/4s longer and it’s reduces the critical damage of your attackers by 30/40/50/60%.

**R MANTRA: **

https://www.mobafire.com/images/ability/karma-mantra.png

Passive GATHERING FIRE: Karma reduces Mantra’s cooldown by 2/3/4 seconds every time she damages or shield an enemy/ally champion with an ability, or by 1/1.5/2 with her basic attacks on-hit (2/3/4 for adc path on AA)

Active: Karma empower her next basic ability within 8s for an additional effect. Karma begins the game with one rank on Mantra.

**Mage: ** The simple shield also reduces Mantra CD by 2/3/4s like described in the passive. CD: 45/42/39/36s

**Tank: ** Karma shield reduces mantra CD by 2/3/4s like described in the passive. CD: 50/46/42/38s

**Support: ** Karma also reduces Mantra’s cooldown by 2/3/4s when she heals a teammate with her RQ or when she shields a teammate with her E. Multiples healing and multiples shields will not reduce more than 6/9/12s the CD of Mantra. CD: 50/45/40/35s

**ADC: ** Karma auto attacks reduces Mantra’s cooldown by 2/3/4s instead of 1/1,5/2s. Shielding herself also reduce mantra CD by 2/3/4s like described in the passive. CD: 45/42/39/36s

**LORE: **

With this rework, her lore would have to be reworked which is fine because her current lore isn’t very “impressive”. It’s could be different stories with different ending, something like “predicting the future?”. Darha would try to know what would happens if she chooses one dragon over the other, what will happen if she reaches the perfect balance? Will her spirit always stay unbalanced?

It's would be weird, special but it’s would give her an identity.

Now tell me what do you think of this idea except maybe i should nerf some ratios/dmg but otherwise does it's appeal you to be able to play Karma like you want?

15 Comments

xDogMeatx1/30/2020, 4:06:17 PM1 votes

1 answer: kayn transformation system. 3 forms yin yang balanced determines the spell bonuses based on form given.

VonCesaw1/31/2020, 7:33:30 AM1 votes

Looks like Hel from Smite

SilverSquid1/31/2020, 10:46:57 AM1 votes

Hey there! I am glad I could inspire you, even though you already know that I disagree with your premise. I don't think a champion that is every role could ever work, since due to her flexibility she would have to sacrifice raw power. That's already hard for 2-3 roles and the reason for her 9.19 nerf, but 5 would most likely leave her in a state that can never impact pro play. She either takes away the niche of somebody else (possibly up to 5 other champions), or be inferior to other picks. Both less than optimal cases. And this disregards the fact that you want her to be able to support in tank path and stuff like that. She would have ~25 playstyles, which is straight up impossible to balance.

I also don't see a way to harmonize ADC and tank with her lore (without changing who she was for the past 10 years). That being said, let's look at how to achieve what you want:

Mage: 0,25/0,5/0,75/1 AP and 0,25/0,5/0,75/1% increased heals and Shield per % missing health.

Flat AP is problematic, since she could gain 90AP for free in early game, which is a TON, while lategame it doesn't do enough. You might probably want to make this % based too. It's also worth mentioning, that Riot doesn't like free power for BEING at low hp anymore. They rather want champions to have MOMENTS of power/opportunity. If it was Riot, they would probably give Karma free power for a few seconds upon dropping low, rather than this.

Tank: Every 10/8/6/4s in combat, Karma next spell will heal her for 2/3/4/5% of her missing health.

Is it on spell CAST or spell HIT? Either way, staying in combat for 10s is pretty long for a heal that's worse than Zac's blobs. I get that you don't want this to be overbearing and free sustain, but since you made this MISSING hp, 5% is already very little. She would require 16s in combat and 4 spells to rival her current RW, which is long. but it got no counterplay and can be used while farming/jungling, etc. Not sure if that's what you should be going for.

ADC: Passive: Every 10/8/6/4s in combat, Karma next AA will deal 10/15/20/25% more damage.

An ADC would try to "stay" in combat by attacking the minion wave, which sometimes could randomly already trigger this passive. It would be frustrating to "lose" this free damage on minions. You could make it "next AA against a champion/large monster" instead?

For mage and tank: Karma fires a burst of spiritual energy in a large cone, dealing damage to all enemies in here. The range is 500. For support and adc: Karma fires a burst of spiritual energy in the target direction, detonating with the first enemy hit, dealing Magic damage (or physical dmg if AD) and slowing all enemies around the target by (depend on the path)% for (depend on the path) seconds. The range is 700 for support and 800 for adc.

Damage cones are outdated because they have weak to no counterplay. If you are in range it's basically a point-and-click ability, i.e. a stat check. You usually want something more interesting and healthy than that. The tank heal is a bit ridiculous too; if you hit an enemy in his minion wave you heal for over 10% of your hp every ~5s. That sounds like very oppressive laning; can't be dodged, is waveclear, scales double with your health and is sustain. 125 free damage on a normal support build might also be a bit too much. I like the idea of damage from manare, so maybe tone it down a notch. The ADC thing is a bit ridiculous tho. Waveclear, slows and free crits? Bit dangerous, eh?

Mage and tank: Karma Q spell gains a little bit more dmg for mage and can heal per enemies hit. The tank version is a stun on her Q and she gains armor and magic resist buff per enemies hit.

Supports and Adc: Inner Flame travels (harmlessly) through enemies to target location to deal bonus magic damage and leave an area of effect that lasts 1.5 seconds, slowing enemies inside by (depend on the path %. The area detonates at the end of its duration, magic damage (or physical if AD) to all enemies inside.

The selfheal per damage dealt is actually rather fine, since it's a heal that costs you ressources (mantra). Other than that, I think it just doesn't work healthily on a cone. There's also the Aatrox problem; not only will an enemy stacking resistances make your damage low, but also reduce your heal, since it depends on your damage. You essentially get double countered by resistances. The tank thing is confusing. The more resistances you have, the less impactful they become. So FLAT resistances makes least sence on tank builds. This is way better on support builds, for example, especially since you also could use that huge undodgeable CC. It's basically a Sona ult with 100 of resistances tacked onto it as a failsave. In some scenarios she could gain up to 200 resistances for 6 seconds, making her unkillable out of nowhere. Sounds very frustrating to play against. The support version is a phrased a bit confusingly. You ought to specify that the second damage means the second explosion (both damage parts are a "circle"). The heal applies once, right? It's a bit convoluted... like, allies are healed PER champion hit, but are healed anyways if they are inside the initial explosion? By... what? If no enemy is inside, what is the value? Maybe you can make that easier (to understand)? And regarding the true damage free crits on ADC Karma: No. Just no. Please no, hell no, all of the nos. The size is too small to be anything else than a fringe case, in which it's way too strong. It should be generally more applicable, not niche-case-bonkers.

...

I could honestly go on for all spells, but it's become pretty obvious that you are boiling with creativity, but are lacking a lot in balance and direction. You seem to want it all and - by vel'koz all consuming eyes - creating a champion that's like 5 champions in one is surely not an easy task for a layman like you. Good game design is about subtle comboes and streamlined interactions. This rework is just throwing related interactions at a wall and hopes they stick. I work months to get one simple rework to function, I probably would have to brew for a year straight to make this quintuple Karma work. Because there are so many interactions to consider. And I honestly don't think it's the way to go, neither judging from her lore, her history, her potential or her community. A "does it all" champion is nothing that I can imagine existing in a game without destroying either the game or other characters. Maybe that's short sighted, but I'd rather have a working mage/enchanter Karma within the next 2 years, than this thing - even if it worked - in 5 years.

I am sorry that I sound so negative at the end there, but those are my honest thoughts. I am not trying to hold you back or force my visions on you, I am honestly rather proud of the Karma community for having so many creative minds that push for positive change, and by all means, you don't HAVE to listen to my opinion at all, but that's how I see it. Truly and honestly. Please don't be discouraged. Maybe you can teach me that I was wrong, if you try enough, but either way I promise you, this path is a harsh and steep one, even more so than what I've been trying to do in the last 5 years.

Ariel the Cruel1/31/2020, 7:54:36 PM1 votes

The direction is interesting. But after a certain point, I have to side with SilverSquid on this one. They may as well make 2 or 3 separate champions with this. The labor would be better distributed and balancing your iteration would be.... Nightmarish, to put it lightly. Riot can barely mange champions with 2 "roles," and you want to hand them 5; each with their own kit?

A better solution to the flexibility you're after would probably be to give each "build" a single ability mod.

Off the top of my head...

Support: Tether can target allies granting durability (by some means). Mantra heals % health over time.

  • Gives Support players a second ability, so shield doesn't have to carry so much weight. %health heal nods back to Old karma's preference towards supporting front-liners. Tank: Q becomes a cone and gains health scaling. Mantra grants resist shred.
  • Gives tank players a way to contribute more to a fight, even if their damage is still low. Mage: Shield bomb on expiration or being destroyed. Mantra deals increased damage and bombs instantly.
  • Giving mage players a second damage source, so all her damage doesn't have to get shunted into a single ability. ADC: Casting Mantra grants bonus AD and/or armor pen and/or range and/or something else ADC's want (not AS).
  • Giving ADC a role-appropriate steroid. Putting it on mantra lets us buff it to something not-insignificant, and since ADC's build AS, this role will probably use mantra most frequently.